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BRB
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Add Papias to the list … per word of Irenaeus. Briefly knew John, and contempory with Polycarp.
Salvation Assurance: Myth or Reality for average Joe / Jane Catholic @ CAF
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Robert_in_SD
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No. There is no distinction. They would show bible verses. You would show bible verses. Both of you would discount the other’s offer of proof.
Pastor Jim:
You only presented your own understanding of those scriptures. I made no misrepresentation.
Pastor Jim:
That is a very interesting personal interpretation of scripture you have.
Pastor Jim:
What about charity Pastor Jim?
Pastor Jim:
I do not think you’ve carried the burden of establishing this as the intention of the original author of the Scripture. Although I understand that one who ascribes to Sola Fide and OSAS must conclude as you do, to maintain the integrity of the doctrine as “scriptural.”
Pastor Jim:
I agree that it is only by the grace of God that we have any hope of keeping the commandments. Outside of that grace, we are destined for judgment in our sin.
Pastor Jim:
That’s not what scripture says. It does not say he was accounted as righteous and then he acted on his faith. The passage speaks of his actions in faith. The two (faith and action) cannot be uncoupled without rendering the integrity of the passage suspect.
Pastor Jim:
I have consistently supported the Catholic position that we are saved by grace through faith working in love, and not by faith alone.
Pastor Jim:
And yey you cannot give me one example of how I have done so. Please be specific about how I have slighted you on a personal level, and I will apologize specifically for it. But if you cannot, then please withdraw your accusation.
Pastor Jim:
Again, I am not aware of having done either of these things. If I have, please show me where, so I can apologize specifically.
Pastor Jim:
No need to yell at me.
But you stated that (1) repentence is necessary for salvation; and (2) a person cannot repent of a sin they still intend to commit. Is it not true that all sins are intentional? There are no such things as unintentional sins? And assuming all sins are intentional, then a sin after a general repentence of sin is not a sin that has been repented of, for it is an intentional act against the will of God. Why can someone who is allegedly saved and in Christ remain in that relationship while simultaneously repudiating the relationship by their intentional acts? OSAS seems inconsistent with notions of free will and divine justice.Pastor Jim:
I’m assuming you mean if they’re leading a life of sin they have not repented. But, how many sins constitutes a life of sin? When does one cross the line from being a saved person in “momentary lapse” to realizing that one is unsaved and is “serving sin?”
Pastor Jim:
But Scripture nowhere states that the person, between the time of sinning and going to God in repentance, is assured of their eternal salvation. Indeed, your comments suggest just the opposite - the longer the delay between sin and repentence, the greater the danger of being “never really saved.”
Under OSAS, one who commits a sin but does not seek forgiveness from God was never really saved - thus OSAS does not apply. But if one commits a sin, lives another 50 years, and repents on his deathbed after the hounding of the Holy Spirit finally sinks in - they were always saved? If THAT is the practical application of OSAS, then there is no “real” assurance of salvation - except for those who (1) sin only in momentary weakness; and (2) immediately seek forgiveness. Hmm, as a practical matter, that is exactly what the Catholic Church says is necessary to have a moral assurance of salvation (presuming of course that one has first been justified by grace through faith).
Pastor Jim said:
It appears to me that you are proposing much the same thing, although you employ the term “momentary lapse” when speaking of venial (non-deadly) sins and refer to mortal (deady) sin as sinning in a manner that “serves sin.” Yet you have not clarified the distinction for us.
How does a person know with absolute assurance in their moments of darkness that they are a Christian who is just experiencing a “momentary lapse” and not a desperate unsaved person who is “serving sin?” What can a OSAS pastor tell such a person? Can this person be assured that they are saved, or should the person question whether or not they are even “saved” at all?
Peace,
-Robert
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Robert_in_SD
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To return to the OP’s question, Catholics are taught, consistent with scripture, that we can have an absolute assurance that Christ can save us. We can be morally assured that if we end our earthly existence in fellowship with Christ we will be saved. Our hope is in Christ, our assurance is from Christ. Our faith is in Christ.
Can I stand here and say today, with absolute and unqualified assurance that I know I will die in a state of grace, thereby receiving the gift of eternal salvation? No. Because I am free to reject God’s grace and turn away from His unfailing love.
There is no point [prior to my death] at which I cannot [change course and] act upon my own free will.
Peace,
-Robert
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terryobrien80
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Sure there is. The key there is that this event happens at the moment of death, NOT before. And the point is that, before our deaths, we can always choose to reject God and throw away His free gift.…According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, those who die in a state of grace and in friendship with God are assured of their salvation. That’s it, that’s all, there’s nothing more that needs to be said.
The crux of the teaching is this: We are assured that God will keep His word, but we do not know what we will do in the future or if we will keep our word. That is why there is no absolute assurance
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Robert_in_SD
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rinnie
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where does it say that Pastor Jim?
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rinnie
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CCC the holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgement all men will appear in their own bodies Before Christ’s Tribunal to RENDER AN ACCOUNT OF THEIR OWN DEEDS. Now if we are all sure we are saved what would be the need for this. Why would there be judgement day if we are sure we are going to heaven. Yes God wants us to all go to heaven, that is why we must turn from sin. The resurrection of all the dead of both the just and the unjust will precede the Last Judgment. Again if we are all sure we are going to heaven why would God say this.
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Sean_Boyle
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I’m afraid that P.J. has left the building…
The Truth scares some people when they are confronted with it.
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Philthy
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I cant believe that you have started another discussion on this without clarifying what exactly you mean by “salvation assurance”! How many times does this request need to be made. When you speak of “Salvation Assurance” do you mean:
A) “I have infallible knowledge that I will go to Heaven WHENEVER I die”
B) Confident expectation that I will go to Heaven WHENEVER I die
C)“I have infallible knowledge that IF I died RIGHT NOW I’d go to Heaven”
D) Confident expectation that IF I died RIGHT NOW I’d go to Heaven"
All Catholics can embrace B and D. Some Catholics are given private revelation which enables them to also embrace A and C.
It teaches that apart from a personal revelation regarding our salvation, we are limited to a confident expectation of our status based upon careful examination of our conscience and our conduct.
There are many verses which talk about falling, making a shipwreck of your faith, not inheriting the kingdom, etc etc. These verses are often in clear, unambiguous,concrete terms, written to entire churches (Ephesians, Corinthians, etc). We therefore can have confidence that they apply to all the faithful.
The big verses for OSAS are far, far less clear: “My sheep know my voice…no one can take them out of my hand”, and “Those whom he foreknew, he predestined, justified…glorified” etc etc. The problem with both of those verses - and many like them - is that their EXACT meaning is unclear. Who, exactly, are the sheep? The Apostles? All who encountered Christ during his earthly lifetime and believed Him? In addition, does the fact that no one can take the sheep out of his hand mean that sheep cannot wander FROM him ON THEIR OWN? It simply is not clear from the statement made.
Which, of course, obviates OSAS.
Completely different topic and not at all what OSAS adherents mean by “Assurance of Salvation”. For them, there is simply no possibility of “losing faith” or “apostasy”. That’s why we must first commit to what the definition of “assurance” is.
And if they began ACTING unChristian during those times and engaging in unrepentant disobedience? I wonder what their fellow OSAS adherents would have to say about them then…
Im sorry, but there are simply too many loose ends: either you are irrevocably saved or you are not. If you are not then there simply is no SUBSTANTIAL difference between the Catholic understanding and the Protestant one… Every time you begin to judge, defend or characterize a person’s faith according to their behavior - as you did above - then the notion of faith “alone” is eliminated and replaced with the sensible and scriptural “faith working through love”. When that happens, the notion of “OSAS salvation assuration” based on “faith alone” also falls. Its very simple.
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Robert_in_SD
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rinnie
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I think the bottom line here us no one wants to think that they can die and not go to heaven. But the bitter truth is that can happen. And that is what the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth. I mean lets face it who doesnt want to think they are going to go to heaven. And yes Jesus did prove that we can and must be saved. But everyone is not going to go to heaven, the bible tells you that. And there is no place in the bible that says you are going. And IMO no matter what faith you are there will be judgement day. Like it or not, and we have no idea how God is going to judge us. We will all be judged differently. God knows our sins, and God knows our hearts, and God knows who we really are, and what we do, and have done. And what we are really sorry for, and he is the only one that can say if we are good enough to go to be with him or not. But to say that we know we are saved and going to heaven would be again IMO playing God. Now to say we have done everything in our power to try to be worthy enough to be welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven, Okay I will give you that, we are trying and it is hard, and yes we can fail at times and still have a shot. But the point of the matter is still JUDGEMENT DAY. And we will be judged, like it or not.
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BRB
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You could & should. Christ never taught that we should go thru life w/o total confidence of salvation assurance. In fact, he taught that doubting will make a Christian ineffectual. Doubting Thomas’ are not an option. Christ had to remove those Thomas had – to enable Thomas to become an assured, confident disciple.
Christ does the same for modern day converts to the faith. Indeed, we can’t be effectual until our doubts are allayed. Ergo, the 3rd Person of Godhead was sent.
Biblical knowledge of Christ will not suffice. Even personal knowledge of Christ will not surfice. It takes the H.S. to accomplish and provide the assurance.
This is Christianity 101. Very basic, very mystical, yet the key reality we must experience. Christ/God communicates with mankind via H.S. To know/experience the H.S. is to know God. This is how David knew Christ in OT times … as his ‘Lord’.
Same for us today.
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Robert_in_SD
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Christ taught us the virtue of Hope. He did not teach us that we could know with certainty that when we die we will definitely go to Heaven. The bible teaches perserverence in faith, in hope of salvation… not doubt or despair but also not presumption.
I do not doubt. I have hope… GREAT hope. There is a balance that Christ taught. Neither despair nor presumption, but hope and assurance that Christ will save those who know and love Him and keep His commandments.
I agree that doubts must be quelled. Doubt is quelled by hope, not an absolute assurance that when one dies, regardless of the circumstances, he or she will absolutely go to heaven. Assurance lies in the knowledge that God will save those whom He as called, those who know and love Him and keep His commandments.
When you say assurance, you need to be more clear about what you mean. The H.S. assures us of God’s love, and God’s power to heal and save. The H.S. does not fill us with presumption. The H.S. fills us with hope.
I agree that the H.S. communicates God’s love to us, His truth, and His mercy. What is not communicated is the absolute assurance that when one dies in the future, he or she will, regardless of what happens from the present onward, go to heaven. The H.S. provides great comfort and hope for salvation, but not a personal absolute assurance - the H.S. does not provide us with a spiritual “get out of jail free” card. If that’s what you are suggesting, then you are asserting a doctrine that is well beyond what the Scriptures teach, and what the Church has taught from the beginning.
Peace,
-Robert
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terryobrien80
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Ridiculous. People turn away from God every day. Sometimes people have a tradgedy in the family - perhaps the death of a child - and blame God, get mad at God, and turn away from Him permantly. I’ve seen it happen. I’m not saying any of us will do that, but I am saying that you do not have absolute assurance of what your actions will be 10 or 15 years from now.
The botton line is: We have assurance God will keep HIS word, but we have no assurance that we will keep OUR word, therefore we have no assurance
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Robert_in_SD
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Yep. I agree with you terryobrien.
Just is case I was not clear, my comment does not doubt Christ’s word, His ability to save, or His desire to save. And I have hope that He will save me.
Let me put it back to BRB this way… If one has absolute assurance of personal salvation, then why would Christ (and the scriptures) uphold hope as a virtue?
Peace,
-Robert
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BRB
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I disagree. Christ taught salvation assurance ‘most assuredly’.
To the 12, to Paul, to Mary, Martha, Mary Magd, etc. To all the disciples who witnessed the ascension.
Not just to the Catholic bishop - papal lineage … but, to the laity.
Those who Christ adopts … he will not divorce. Christ never forsakes his own sheep. His sheep may forsake him [but, that is not the matter we are discussing here].
True Disciples will remain faithful to the end. That is the crux issue for debate. A True Disciple, avoiding apostasy via daily spritual growth in tree of life, by lifegiving H.S., — is assured of salvation. Having already received the salvation gift from Christ via adoption … Christ will never reject / forsake what he has brought from death to life. To suggest Christ could not [or would not] deliver what God has promised via a solemn oath … is not only unthinkable, but an impossibility.
We don’t get a ‘ticket to heaven’. We get a Certainty Oath from Christ that ‘this day we have entered into his Kingdom via adoption’. And, Christ tells us what ?.. “Go and sin no more”.
So if we abide by his Words and Commands … and don’t fall into apostasy … we can have 100% certitude of salvation assurance.
We do periodically slip back into sin … but, that is why we have sacrament of confession, or if need be Purgatory. Christ always calls to his sheep when they misbehave or fall into serious sin. If they hear his voice and repent … all is well. If we repeatedly ignore and chose to remain in sin [apostasy]… we forfeit our ‘blessed assurance’, and voluntarily chose to leave the Kingdom.
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rinnie
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I agree with both of you. Here is why We are saved by the saving Grace of Christ. Yes that is true, but as stated above we can lose that Grace also. Which goes back to no one has salvation assurance, except of course if we dont sin, which we all know we do, which is why Jesus died on the Cross. But the secret is like also stated to die in the good Graces of Christ. And that would be stay true to your faith, confess, repent, and follow the commandments. But the big problem here is we all sin, and not many are lucky enough to know when God is calling them home, and while it is best as the bible tells us (stay in saving grace) sometimes we fail, we all have bad days, do things we regret, and that is IMO why we can never say we are going straight to heaven. Remember what Jesus said if we knew when the thief was comming we would be ready. And we do need to get ready, but how many really are. GOTTA GO. I REALLY AM GOING TO CONFESSION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. NO JOKE.
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BRB
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Philthy … I love you brother !! Always wanting clarification.
I gave you 24 hrs to propose the topic and define the terms … you snooze you lose
Seriously, you point up the problem with OSAS … Protestants don’t finely define what they mean. OSAS for them is all inclusive. Clearly apostasy is a Biblical option for a convert.
But, how would God define that apostate ? As a fallen sheep or a goat ? As a soured grain of wheat or a tare ?
The only way it would seem we can know — is who accepts and who denies the H.S. A True Believer is alway defined by H.S. … a pretender goat in the Church doesn’t have a clue what the H.S. really is. Only Christ knows who has the 3rd Person of Godhead … since he provides it to the converts.
Regarding your A-D choices… Born again, fully confessed Catholics should be able to truthfully answer C, and also know that short of apostasy before their death … A also is applicable.
But, put your choice selection to Christ in your nightly meditations … and see what counsel he gives you as correct answer.
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