Salvation Assurance: Myth or Reality for average Joe / Jane Catholic @ CAF

[Robert_in_SD]

I disagree. Christ taught salvation assurance ‘most assuredly’.

He did not teach the type of assurance you are promoting.

BRB:

Not just to the Catholic bishop - papal lineage … but, to the laity.

Not sure what you are referencing here? Non sequitur.

BRB:

Those who Christ adopts … he will not divorce. Christ never forsakes his own sheep. His sheep may forsake him [but, that is not the matter we are discussing here].

You are confusing the notion of predestination with the notion of a personal knowledge of ultimate salvation. Of course Christ will not abandon His own. The issue is whether we know with absolute certainty that we are indeed one of His - i.e. that we will perservere to the end as we are called to do.

BRB:

True Disciples will remain faithful to the end. That is the crux issue for debate.

Exactly. Therefore, only at the end will we know who the true disciples are.

BRB:

To suggest Christ could not [or would not] deliver what God has promised via a solemn oath … is not only unthinkable, but an impossibility.

I agree. Christ promised He would save those who know Him, love him, keep the commandments. Only at the end of a life lived in faith will we have the assurance of salvation. Until that end point, we have hope.

BRB:

We don’t get a ‘ticket to heaven’. We get a Certainty Oath from Christ that ‘this day we have entered into his Kingdom via adoption’. And, Christ tells us what ?.. “Go and sin no more”.

Christ does not promise that you will never be able to leave that Kingdom by your own acts contrary to His will.

BRB:

So if we abide by his Words and Commands … and don’t fall into apostasy … we can have 100% certitude of salvation assurance.

Therefore, we cannot say we know with certainty that we will go to heaven. We can - at best - say that we know *if *we continue to abide by Him, and don’t fall into apostacy, we will be saved.

BRB:

We do periodically slip back into sin … but, that is why we have sacrament of confession, or if need be Purgatory. Christ always calls to his sheep when they misbehave or fall into serious sin. If they hear his voice and repent … all is well. If we repeatedly ignore and chose to remain in sin [apostasy]… we forfeit our ‘blessed assurance’, and voluntarily chose to leave the Kingdom.

I agree with this. What I do not agree with is the statement that one can be presently assured that when he or she dies (in the future) that he or she will absolutely positively go to heaven. There is always the possibility of turning from God, as you seem to note here.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[BRB]

He did not teach the type of assurance you are promoting.

only at the end will we know who the true disciples are.

Christ promised He would save those who know Him, love him, keep the commandments.

Christ does not promise that you will never be able to leave that Kingdom by your own acts contrary to His will.

We can - at best - say that we know *if *we continue to abide by Him, and don’t fall into apostacy, we will be saved.

I do not agree with is the statement that one can be presently assured that when he or she dies (in the future) that he or she will absolutely positively go to heaven. There is always the possibility of turning from God, as you seem to note here.

With regards to the points you make above.

Christ gave/gives specific assurance to new converts about their salvations. Certainly this does not cover apostasy.

Christ, John, Peter, Paul, etc. in scripture tell us we must abide in Christ to the end to retain the free gift we have received.

Generally, we lose our conviction / assurance with regards to salvation when we have unconfessed sins. Christ has made provisions for this … providing sacraments of Eucharist and Confession. To the extent we follow his commands and abide in his Love via H.S … our confidence/assurance is reflected.

Someone 3-4 months away from Church family, w/o confessions … will be sorely lacking in assurance. Continue this way and fall into mortal sinning … and confidence regarding salvation is lost. The next phase is total loss of faith, decision to run our own lives the way we wish [making shipwreck of our faiths], and refusal to confess or return to the Church … apostasy. At this point we are divorcing ourselves from Christ. At what point he accepts our divorce desire is impossible to know.

Christ does assure his children of their salvations. We can be assured of our own relationship to the Father via the Son … thru the 3rd Person of Godhead. But, we cannot know for sure about anothers … thus, we are never to judge another. Christ alone knows the true story, when that person’s final day on earth will be, and whether they might make a complete deathbed confession … or initially accept Christ [as in case of thief on cross].

Christ will tell us if we are Kingdom bound [spiritually rebirthed] … just as he told the thief. If he gave the thief assurance … would he not do so for you / I ?

Clearly Christ communicates to all adoptees in this regard … via the 3rd. Person of Godhead. We get our assurance from the H.S. … after first having total faith & confessing to the
2nd Person of Godhead, and undergoing baptism, confirmation, etc.

Recall what Early Church fathers taught on Trinity. God the Father reaches down to man/woman with two hands. Christ is the right hand of Father, H.S. is the left hand. The H.S. leads us to reach up to take hands of Christ. Once we do … the Left hand of God annoints the convert with H.S… One can view it as crossed hands over the individual. Our hands reaching up to accept Christ[God’s] hands. One can picture it as the ‘sign of the cross’ at work … performing spiritual miracle of healing.

Everything miraculous on earth happens under the sign of the cross.

 

[Philthy]

Christ never taught that we should go thru life w/o total confidence of salvation assurance.

Uhhh, I think you may have overstated things just a bit.
First of all, Christ never even uses the term “salvation assurance” and even if he had, you havent bothered to define what you mean by it. We cannot, therefore, necessarily substitute what Christ said regarding one entity (eternal life, for example) with what you mean when you say “salvation assurance”.
Secondly, you have not demonstrated that whatever biblical texts you believe provide 'salvation assurance" actually apply to ALL Christians. In fact, you havent provided any Scripture at all to directly back up your claim. Now I have some pretty good ideas what Scripture you have in mind, but you need to lay out your case as concretely as possible so that we can all see it.
Lastly, you have not stated whether you have an “infallible” interpretation of Scripture as it relates to “salvation assurance”. Without the knowledge that your interpretation of Scripture as it applies to “salvation assurance” is infallible, you cannot have “salvation assurance” based upon anything you beleive promised in Scripture, and your entire case falls apart. So lets hear you claim to know that you have the one, perfect, infallible interpretation of the entirety of Scripture for all believers for all time as it relates to “salvation assurance”. Dont worry, I wont hold my breath while you equivocate!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

With regards to the points you make above.

Christ gave/gives specific assurance to new converts about their salvations. Certainly this does not cover apostasy.

Christ, John, Peter, Paul, etc. in scripture tell us we must abide in Christ to the end to retain the free gift we have received.

Generally, we lose our conviction / assurance with regards to salvation when we have unconfessed sins. Christ has made provisions for this … providing sacraments of Eucharist and Confession. To the extent we follow his commands and abide in his Love via H.S … our confidence/assurance is reflected.

Someone 3-4 months away from Church family, w/o confessions … will be sorely lacking in assurance. Continue this way and fall into mortal sinning … and confidence regarding salvation is lost. The next phase is total loss of faith, decision to run our own lives the way we wish [making shipwreck of our faiths], and refusal to confess or return to the Church … apostasy. At this point we are divorcing ourselves from Christ. At what point he accepts our divorce desire is impossible to know.

Christ does assure his children of their salvations. We can be assured of our own relationship to the Father via the Son … thru the 3rd Person of Godhead. But, we cannot know for sure about anothers … thus, we are never to judge another. Christ alone knows the true story, when that person’s final day on earth will be, and whether they might make a complete deathbed confession … or initially accept Christ [as in case of thief on cross].

Christ will tell us if we are Kingdom bound [spiritually rebirthed] … just as he told the thief. If he gave the thief assurance … would he not do so for you / I ?

Clearly Christ communicates to all adoptees in this regard … via the 3rd. Person of Godhead. We get our assurance from the H.S. … after first having total faith & confessing to the
2nd Person of Godhead, and undergoing baptism, confirmation, etc.

Recall what Early Church fathers taught on Trinity. God the Father reaches down to man/woman with two hands. Christ is the right hand of Father, H.S. is the left hand. The H.S. leads us to reach up to take hands of Christ. Once we do … the Left hand of God annoints the convert with H.S… One can view it as crossed hands over the individual. Our hands reaching up to accept Christ[God’s] hands. One can picture it as the ‘sign of the cross’ at work … performing spiritual miracle of healing.

Everything miraculous on earth happens under the sign of the cross.

It appears that our disagreement, to the extent any remains, is a matter of semantics.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Philthy]

Philthy … I love you brother !! Always wanting clarification. I gave you 24 hrs to propose the topic and define the terms … you snooze you lose

You got me there!

Seriously, you point up the problem with OSAS … Protestants don’t finely define what they mean. OSAS for them is all inclusive. Clearly apostasy is a Biblical option for a convert.

No, I disagree, OSASers are very clear: if you are saved you cannot go to Hell - period. If anything during this lifetime calls into question your salvation - including apostasy - then you, by definition, must not have been saved to begin with. Thats just a convoluted way of saying “the salvation assurance that we have can be retroactively rescinded” which, of course, makes it meaningless and self-contradictory.

But, how would God define that apostate ? As a fallen sheep or a goat ? As a soured grain of wheat or a tare ?

A seed “choked by the weeds” would be apt as would the “branch” that did not produce any fruit and which was “cut off” and “thrown into the fire”.

The only way it would seem we can know — is who accepts and who denies the H.S.

The only problem, of course, is that there is always time for both throughout your ENTIRE life. Gird your loins boy.

Regarding your A-D choices… Born again, fully confessed Catholics should be able to truthfully answer C, and also know that short of apostasy before their death … A also is applicable.

Choice “A” purposefully cannot be chosen with any possibility of the outcome in doubt. That would include the “short of apostasy” option. That was the whole point. If apostasy remains an option, then choice “A” is eliminated and OSAS is exposed for what it is: a false sense of security.

But, put your choice selection to Christ in your nightly meditations … and see what counsel he gives you as correct answer.

“I love you. Could you not stay with me for one hour? Pray that you may not undergo the test” :bowdown:

 

[Philthy]

It appears that our disagreement, to the extent any remains, is a matter of semantics.

Peace,
-Robert

Correct! That’s why I wanted the terms defined clearly in advance…

 

[BRB]

Choice “A” purposefully cannot be chosen with any possibility of the outcome in doubt. That would include the “short of apostasy” option. OSAS is exposed for what it is: a false sense of security.

“I love you. Could you not stay with me for one hour? Pray that you may not undergo the test” :bowdown:

Your statement above might initially appear correct to you …

But, you next quote Christ … and as providence often works in our lives, Christ gives us the Solution to the ‘possibility of apostasy’.

Christ teaches us how to make apostasy an impossibility. If we read the scriptures closely, it is clear that Christ has an answer to every question or doubt we can raise. In Christ there is only YES. Outside of Christ, there is a certain NO.

We both know the scriptures on the topic … but, this weekend I will compile a list for you — perhaps Monday I’ll be back with sacred scriptures to support.

In the final analysis … proof texting never convinces anyone beyond shadow of doubt. But, it makes us ‘seek’ the truth for ourselves … and those who seek with diligence will always find.

God rewards persistence, faith, and belief in Christ … with 100%assurance … via 3rd person of Godhead. David enjoyed 100% assurance, so did all the prophets of old, and John the Baptizer … and so did all the apostles. Should we expect any less of Christ ?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Christ teaches us how to make apostasy an impossibility. If we read the scriptures closely, it is clear that Christ has an answer to every question or doubt we can raise. In Christ there is only YES. Outside of Christ, there is a certain NO.

Welcome to the Catholic Church, brother.

BRB:

We both know the scriptures on the topic … but, this weekend I will compile a list for you — perhaps Monday I’ll be back with sacred scriptures to support.

I know this is not directed to me, but I will look forward to reading what you post.

BRB:

In the final analysis … proof texting never convinces anyone beyond shadow of doubt. But, it makes us ‘seek’ the truth for ourselves … and those who seek with diligence will always find.

Those who seek will find Christ. Some may be surprised at where that seeking leads. In my experience, I was surprised to find that it led me back home, to the Catholic Church.

BRB:

God rewards persistence, faith, and belief in Christ … with 100%assurance … via 3rd person of Godhead. David enjoyed 100% assurance, so did all the prophets of old, and John the Baptizer … and so did all the apostles. Should we expect any less of Christ ?

We can be assured of many things… Christ’s love. His mercy, His power to save us. But we cannot be assured in the sense taught within OSAS - that from a certain point in our life forward we have no chance of losing the grace necessary for salvation.

To the contrary, however, we can remain 100% assured that there is always hope for salvation. God is a loving God, and His mercy endures forever and there is no sin to great, except for the final rejection of Him. I think we are in agreement on this point.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Philthy]

“I love you. Could you not stay with me for one hour? Pray that you may not undergo the test” :bowdown:

Your statement above might initially appear correct to you …
But, you next quote Christ … and as providence often works in our lives, Christ gives us the Solution to the ‘possibility of apostasy’. Christ teaches us how to make apostasy an impossibility.

I’m not following you. Where does Christ claim that some action that we do eliminates - for all time - the possibility of apostasy?? You make this claim without explaining yourself - where you believe Christ gives this solution. We can’t read your mind.

God rewards persistence, faith, and belief in Christ … with 100%assurance … via 3rd person of Godhead. David enjoyed 100% assurance, so did all the prophets of old, and John the Baptizer … and so did all the apostles. Should we expect any less of Christ ?

Without agreeing with your premise that they enjoyed “100% assurance”, I would actually say that its pretty obvious for us to expect less. These are all unique, chosen people who occupied a very special place in God’s plan. They enjoyed special favor. Nothing you or I say will be recorded as Scripture for all time - they all enjoyed that favor. Christ is not with us in quite the same way that he was with any of the NT Apostles - they witnessed his miracles, ascension, transfiguration, etc. I dont even know how it is possible to discuss their having “faith” in the sense that we must have it. Many are called, few are chosen. All of those folks were chosen in a manner that you and I were not chosen. They all had direct private revelation validated by its inclusion in Sacred Scripture. You and I do not and will never enjoy that particular favor to the extent that they enjoyed it, and in that sense we can, in fact, expect less. Does that bother you?

 

[BRB]

To the contrary, however, we can remain 100% assured that there is always hope for salvation.

Take David as example. Did David go into battle ‘hoping’ his Lord would help him overcome Goliath ? Read the story again.

David fought on behalf of his Lord, and in the power and spirit of. David had zero doubts, ZERO. His victory [the Lord’s victory], and victory for the chosen people of God was a certainly for him.

His salvation was always viewed as sealed, secured, and certified by his Lord. He was in constant conflict and danger, yet always carrying forth to sure victory in his Lord.

Only once that I recall, did David have only ‘hope’ in an outcome. He prayed and ‘hoped’ his child by sin with Bathsheba might live. Yet he could only hope …because the prophet had already spoken of the outcome.

Yet the minute he got the bad news … he was able to accept the verdict, and rejoiced again in his Lord. David’s personal salvation security was never seriously questioned in scriptures. He always knew that his Lord could deliver his/their victory. He was unified in this Lord … it was always teamwork.

Do you have the faith of David ? Would Christ give more to David than he would to a post-Pentecostal convert ?

Proof texting from scripture will never fully make the case for us. Christ/God never intended it to. We can be 99.9 % sure … yet always wonder if we have the full story/truth. We are always looking for that last bit of evidence.

Thats why we must always realize we are insufficient in/of ourselves. We must rely on Faith in Christ to overcome our weakness … and to remove all doubts. Salvations are always faith based … enabled by H.S. Reason alone, or theoretical knowledge of God … will never get us to the Kingdom. Man must experience God to have total assurance.

Divine revelation is the only way we can ever experience God … and it only comes via FAITH that Christ WILL deliver.

The only way you know you won’t float away in mornings when you get out of bed … is because its been your experience 100% of time in past. Until we experience God in personal sense … we will always have doubts.

David experienced his Lord … it was a personal, living relationship for him. Thats what Christ calls all to do … seek an experience with Him, and he will deliver. Apostle John seemed to experience Christ more acutely than the others. He was the mystic … he was the ‘beloved’. Yet, John taught in his Gospel that all Christians are to view themselves as the ‘beloved’ of Christ. Was this his own idea ?

H.S. inspired him, to inspire us — to seek same relationship he enjoyed/experienced. Seek in total faith … thats what Christ recognizes and delivers upon.

Don’ t let the naysayers discourage you. Many will say “not to trust your feelings … don’t go there”. Christ told us otherwise, so did David, John, etc. Christ told us to take his hand, to touch his wounds, to be believing — not doubting. He breathed spirit on the 12 … so they would experience the spirit. Pentecost was ‘experienced by all’. He gives us the Eucharist … so we can ‘experience’ his body/blood and H.S. in profound ways.

ECF spoke of the ‘illumination’ that baptized converts ‘experienced’. It’s this ‘illumination sealing’ by Christ that ‘firms up’/solidifys a convert’s conviction of their adoption/election. Confirmation, Confession & Eucharist further our experience, ever thereafter.

 

[SD_Catholic]

BRB

Your statement above might initially appear correct to you …

But, you next quote Christ … and as providence often works in our lives, Christ gives us the Solution to the ‘possibility of apostasy’.

Christ teaches us how to make apostasy an impossibility. If we read the scriptures closely, it is clear that Christ has an answer to every question or doubt we can raise. In Christ there is only YES. Outside of Christ, there is a certain NO.

We both know the scriptures on the topic … but, this weekend I will compile a list for you — perhaps Monday I’ll be back with sacred scriptures to support.

In the final analysis … proof texting never convinces anyone beyond shadow of doubt. But, it makes us ‘seek’ the truth for ourselves … and those who seek with diligence will always find.

God rewards persistence, faith, and belief in Christ … with 100%assurance … via 3rd person of Godhead. David enjoyed 100% assurance, so did all the prophets of old, and John the Baptizer … and so did all the apostles. Should we expect any less of Christ ?

Here’s what I would question as others have… Can we be 100% sure that WE will not do something that will blot us out of God’s book… Yes we can be assured if we follow all of God’s rules, but how can we be 100% sure that we will complete our lives whithout jumping off that narrow path that God has paved for us… Sure if we stay the course, but knowing we will stay the course without falter is what is questioned, not wether or not God has paved the road for us… Even Peter denied that he would fail Jesus, but he did for a time… how can we be so sure that we won’t fail even if we say we won’t at this time?

SD

 

[Philthy]

Take David as example. Did David go into battle ‘hoping’ his Lord would help him overcome Goliath ? Read the story again.

David fought on behalf of his Lord, and in the power and spirit of. David had zero doubts, ZERO. His victory [the Lord’s victory], and victory for the chosen people of God was a certainly for him.

His salvation was always viewed as sealed, secured, and certified by his Lord. He was in constant conflict and danger, yet always carrying forth to sure victory in his Lord.

Only once that I recall, did David have only ‘hope’ in an outcome. He prayed and ‘hoped’ his child by sin with Bathsheba might live. Yet he could only hope …because the prophet had already spoken of the outcome.

Yet the minute he got the bad news … he was able to accept the verdict, and rejoiced again in his Lord. David’s personal salvation security was never seriously questioned in scriptures. He always knew that his Lord could deliver his/their victory. He was unified in this Lord … it was always teamwork.

]
Congratulations on demonstrating that David “persevered to the end”. That doesn’t, unfortunately, reveal anything with absolute assurance regarding you or I.

Do you have the faith of David ? Would Christ give more to David than he would to a post-Pentecostal convert ?

Interesting how the dynamic shifts from a biblical demonstration to a mere speculative appeal. The honest answer - for both of us - is that I dont know if I have the faith of David. I can tell you that I dont have 100% assurance that if I found myself in Job’s shoes that I would, at this point in my spiritual development, have his faith. Can you say with 100% certainty that you have the faith of Job??? Honestly, how could you possibly know. ISTM that when I persevere to the end and hear our Lord say, “Well done my good and faithful servant” I’ll know 100%. Until then - I can only have confidence.

Proof texting from scripture will never fully make the case for us…
Thats why we must always realize we are insufficient in/of ourselves. We must rely on Faith in Christ to overcome our weakness … and to remove all doubts.

Having faith in the present does not remove “all” doubts regarding the future. There is always the miniscule possibility of losing hope, giving up and being choked by the weeds of the world.

Man must experience God to have total assurance. Divine revelation is the only way we can ever experience God … and it only comes via FAITH that Christ WILL deliver.

Agreed. As I said before - a personal revelation regarding your eternal destiny is possible (ie, Fatima kids). Most of us dont get this however.

The only way you know you won’t float away in mornings when you get out of bed … is because its been your experience 100% of time in past.

Sorry but the past is merely indicative of the future - it does not define it with absolute certainty. One day the sun will not rise despite the fact that it always has since the beginning.

ECF spoke of the ‘illumination’ that baptized converts ‘experienced’. It’s this ‘illumination sealing’ by Christ that ‘firms up’/solidifys a convert’s conviction of their adoption/election. Confirmation, Confession & Eucharist further our experience, ever thereafter.

So baptism “solidifies” our “conviction of election” while “Confirmation, Confession & Eucharist further our experience”. Further it beyond what? Beyond 100% assurance that your saved? Im sorry but while most of what you are writing about I agree with, I just dont find anything compelling regarding the “100% assurance” that “whenever I die I’m going to heaven”. I dont find anything compelling that obviates the need to actually live the life of the good and faithful servant.

 

[BRB]

Without agreeing with your premise that they enjoyed “100% assurance”, I would actually say that its pretty obvious for us to expect less. These are all unique, chosen people who occupied a very special place in God’s plan. They enjoyed special favor. Nothing you or I say will be recorded as Scripture for all time - they all enjoyed that favor. Christ is not with us in quite the same way that he was with any of the NT Apostles - they witnessed his miracles, ascension, transfiguration, etc. I dont even know how it is possible to discuss their having “faith” in the sense that we must have it.?

Did Christ teach [as you suggest] we are to see ourselves in any way the ‘lesser’ of our forebears ?

To the contrary …
Christ taught the least in the Kingdom would be greater than John. And, that those with childlike humility would be the greatest in the Kingdom. And, if we desire to be the greatest, we must be a servant of all.
So, its faithful, discipleship with humility …that determines the greater/lesser issue for Christ.

Now, in another statement of flawed logic you say … Christ is not with us today in the same way as with the Apostles & those who witnessed his miracles. Again your are wrong, perhaps believing the sacred scripture’s meanings have ‘evolved’ [devolved] over time ?

Many Jews witnessed miracles of Christ, and would/could not find the faith to obey his teachings.   Christ told his disciples they would have no success in spreading Gospel w/o aid of Paraclete.   He specifically advised them not to go forward .. until the power came upon them from H.S.   The Gospel message is clear on this, from all who testify ---  nothing for the Kingdom can be done w/o inspiration/authority/power of the 3rd Person of Godhead.

Christ even promised that miracles greater than his would be done via power of H.S. …“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do greater work than I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it.” John 14:12-14

Finally, you say you don’t even know if it is possible to have the faith of the original 12. How absurd !
Is this the teaching of the Church … or your own opinion [based on little faith, or a paucity of works] ? How many martyrs does history tell of … who gladly went to their deaths saying “I am Christian” in the first 300 years of Christianity ? What do ECF’s and Church Tradition proclaim on this topic ?

Christ taught his disciples that they ‘couldn’t handle[bear] the truth’. And, told them they would receive/EXPERIENCE the Spirit of truth, to guide them into all truth and understanding. The real power in the Gospel came with Pentecost … and the 2000 years since.

Christ promised he would never adandon the believers or the Church … So why would you believe/suggest otherwise ?

I know many Protestants who claim the true faith & say they know Christ … yet they have No Experience with the 3rd Person of Godhead. Certainly all true sheep [elect of God] need a testimony with regards to the H.S. … if we are to believe the words of Christ.

If the Catholic Church is the Rock of Christ … it [we] should be the experts on the H.S. All that stored up ‘deposit of wisdom and grace’ — is ever available to the adoptee’s of God.

John the Apostle believed and taught that all disciples of Christ are to enjoy the close spiritual ‘beloved’ status he had with the Saviour. [So the ECF’s tell us, and so do his writings in NT ]

You went to Mass today… right ? Were you surprised by the truth in the 1st & 2nd scripture readings that spoke of Assurance ?

I found no less than 30 scriptures [and whole chapters in Psalms] on the topic of assurance. But, lets start with those our Church gave us today.

1st reading: Isaiah 55:1-3
“Ho, every one who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for than which does not satisfy ? Hearken diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in fatness. Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my Steadfast ASSURANCE [sure love] for David.”

Then we sang Responsorial Song : “The Hand of God Feeds us, he answers all our needs”.

2nd reading: Romans 8:35, 37-39
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword ? … No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I AM SURE that neither death, nor life, nor angels [satan perhaps ?], nor principalities, nor things present, nor things TO COME, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor ANYTHING ELSE in ALL CREATION, will be able to SEPARATE US from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

So it is written, so it is ASSURED in the Mass. Holy Scripture from OT & NT guarantee …

 

[BRB]

Where does Christ claim that some action that we do eliminates - for all time - the possibility of apostasy??

?

I’ve always acknowledged that Apostasy is OUR option. We know God hates divorce. But, if we insist we wish to serve another master … it seems he will allow our ‘free will’ choice.

However, a disciple can take away the ‘option of apostasy’ … if we think we lack Job’s perseverance.

One only needs to ask Christ to remove that option from our vocabulary. To ignore our plea for divorce. The Lord will give us the desires of our heart … but, we must ask.

It could be a simple prayer like " Lord if I’ve ever out of your favor for more than 1 week [24 hrs is even better] … remind me of this prayer. Do whatever it takes to get my attention and show me my err. Save me from the Fires of Hell" …[hey, isn’t that in the Rosary]

Make a Covenant with the Lord. Otherwise its could be a frivolous, fleeting wish/desire which is not properly secured by H.S.

Remember, Peter made a quick, emphatic promise to Christ which he quickly broke. Yet … Christ loved the intentions of Peter. Peter repented and did it right on the next go … with a firm commitment [sealed by H.S., as evidenced by his life and martyrdom].

 

[BRB]

. All of those folks were chosen in a manner that you and I were not chosen. They all had direct private revelation validated by its inclusion in Sacred Scripture. You and I do not and will never enjoy that particular favor to the extent that they enjoyed it, and in that sense we can, in fact, expect less. Does that bother you?

It would if it were true.

H.S. gives all who are joined to Christ ‘direct private revelation’.
Spiritual revelation always.

We teach the H.S. is a Person … right? The 3rd Person of Godhead is more influential than was Christ himself while here on earth. Yet, the H.S. is shared equally by Christ and the Father. There is no conflict between. ECF taught the Father holds out Christ with Rt. hand, and the H.S. with the Lt.

How many steadfastly followed Christ after his 3 years of teaching ? How many true belivers were present at the ascension? How many were converted at Pentecost and shortly thereafter ? Isn’t it amazing the Church grew faster under H.S. than prior to Pentecost ?

Paul & Barnabus were confirmed by Church at Antioch prior to their first mission. Probably confirmed by John the Apostle … since he accompanied them on the mission. And in one day [it appears from story in Acts] 5 thousand gentiles were converted.

H.S has always been God’s primary way to witness to mankind [both OT & NT eras]. H.S. reveals truth of God/Christ to mankind … its unified Trinitarian teamwork.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Take David as example. Did David go into battle ‘hoping’ his Lord would help him overcome Goliath ? Read the story again.

Yes. He had great hope as well as great faith. But that’s not really the question. I have faith that what happens to me in this life is God’s will, as did David. David does not speak about eternal salvation, or the state of his soul during his struggle with Goliath.

BRB:

David fought on behalf of his Lord, and in the power and spirit of. David had zero doubts, ZERO. His victory [the Lord’s victory], and victory for the chosen people of God was a certainly for him.

Hope does not mean doubts about one’s relationship with God. Hope is the confident desire of attaining a future good. The christian virtue of hope gives one the confidence to receive the grace that is necessary to reach heaven. David had hope… GREAT HOPE, from which he confidently received the grace necessary to meet the challege of Goliath. He was faithfull to God. Nowhere in the story does it say that David met Goliath on the field because David believed his eternal salvation was secure at that moment.

BRB:

His salvation was always viewed as sealed, secured, and certified by his Lord.

God’s understanding has nothing to do with David’s understanding of his own eternal salvation.

BRB:

Only once that I recall, did David have only ‘hope’ in an outcome. He prayed and ‘hoped’ his child by sin with Bathsheba might live. Yet he could only hope …because the prophet had already spoken of the outcome.

Read about the virtue of hope. I think you are not understanding the concept of hope as a virtue, and see it as something less than it is. Hope and faith work hand-in-hand. Hope is *not *what remains without faith. Hope arises only in the presence of faith.

BRB:

David’s personal salvation security was never seriously questioned in scriptures.

Are you kidding me? David was a murderer and an adulterer. If anything, his life stands as an example of how the Lord’s mercy extends to the worst of sinners. The story of David could have ended quite differently. Only by the grace of God did it end as it did.

BRB:

He always knew that his Lord could deliver his/their victory.

He had faith and hope that the Lord would forgive even his darkest sins. Again, this does not prove that David always knew his salvation was assured. His repentence suggests the opposite. The scriptures prove only that David knew the Lord in a way that his contemporaries did not.

BRB:

He was unified in this Lord … it was always teamwork.

EXACTLY… “Teamwork” means David’s salvation was the result of a life lived in faith, not merely a declaration of righteousness made at some point along the continuum of he earthly existence.

BRB:

Do you have the faith of David ?

I’ve never been asked to slay a giant. But that’s really not the issue. I can have all the faith in the world, but that will not guarantee my personal future salvation, if I do not respond to it like David did. Similarly, I will not know with absolute certainty if I am destined for heaven or hell in the midst of life. But I am assured that for those who walk in the Lord and keep His commandments, there is hope - the greatest hope - born of faith.

BRB:

Proof texting from scripture will never fully make the case for us. Christ/God never intended it to. We can be 99.9 % sure … yet always wonder if we have the full story/truth. We are always looking for that last bit of evidence.

I agree that proof-texting is not suficient. Where there needs to be clear definition, the Church provides guidance.

BRB:

Thats why we must always realize we are insufficient in/of ourselves. We must rely on Faith in Christ to overcome our weakness … and to remove all doubts.

I have never said that hope is a form of self-reliance. It is a virtue that exists only where there is faith. But faith does not remove free will. Therefore, we cannot know that we will not, at some point in the future, turn away from God.

BRB:

Salvations are always faith based … enabled by H.S. Reason alone, or theoretical knowledge of God … will never get us to the Kingdom.

No Catholic would argue that salvation can be attained without faith. That is not in dispute. The question is whether one who has saving faith can know with certainty that - e.g. ten years from now - he will still have the faith that is saving faith given the reality of free will and the ability of the flesh to deceive.

BRB:

The only way you know you won’t float away in mornings when you get out of bed … is because its been your experience 100% of time in past. Until we experience God in personal sense … we will always have doubts.

You seem to be confusing doubt over the existence of a personal God with doubt about personal salvation. Do you not see that these are two different issues. I have no doubt that God is a personal God who exists, and who created me to love Him and serve Him in this world, so that I can be with Him for eternity in the next. That faith does not assure me that I will join God for eternity regardless of my actions in the future. That sense of OSAS I reject completely. But I agree that it is beyond doubt that those who abide with and in Christ will be saved. That assurance give me real hope. Hope of my personal salvation buoys me up in this often cruel world cunning world.

BRB:

David experienced his Lord … it was a personal, living relationship for him. Thats what Christ calls all to do … seek an experience with Him, and he will deliver.

Again, I do not disagree with this concept. A personal relationship with God is what all christians need. But a presently existing personal relationship with God can be “shipwrecked” by our conduct in the future. (You seem to have already acknowledged that possibility.) Our hope is that God will keep us from that shipwreck.

BRB:

Apostle John … was the mystic … he was the ‘beloved’. Yet, John taught in his Gospel that all Christians are to view themselves as the ‘beloved’ of Christ. Was this his own idea ?

No. Again, you are equating faith in Christ’s love with the assurance of personal future salvation. It’s not the same thing. Christ’s love can be rejected even by one who presently is in a right relationship with God.

BRB:

H.S. inspired him, to inspire us — to seek same relationship he enjoyed/experienced. Seek in total faith … thats what Christ recognizes and delivers upon.

Again, no Catholic would question the need for that personal relationship. A strong personal relationship with Christ assures us of continuing grace. But it does not rob us of the gift of free will. Indeed, it is the existence of free will that makes the relationship with Christ a genuine act of love.

BRB:

Don’ t let the naysayers discourage you.

Hope is the opposite of discouragement. My faith gives me hope. I reject the notion of an absolute assurance of personal future salvation (presumption) that you are struggling to support.

BRB:

ECF spoke of the ‘illumination’ that baptized converts ‘experienced’. It’s this ‘illumination sealing’ by Christ that ‘firms up’/solidifys a convert’s conviction of their adoption/election. Confirmation, Confession & Eucharist further our experience, ever thereafter.

This firming up and solidifying should be seen as a strengthening of faith and a swelling of hope. It should never be understood as the formation of a presumption in one’s personal future salvation.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[BRB]

this does not prove that David always knew his salvation was assured. His repentence suggests the opposite. The scriptures prove only that David knew the Lord in a way that his contemporaries did not.

.

I disagree. David knew his Lord would not forsake him to hell. To this degree, he had total assurance he was Kingdom bound. He ALWAYS knew when he had upset His Lord via sin … and EVER desired to keep his relationship ontrack. David was a man after God’s own heart.

Yes, he stumbled with some sins and was punished for … but, his desire to regain God’s heart ensured he always realized need to confess his err and restore right relationship to his Lord. The Good Shepherd always protects his flock … and David knew Christ as his Shepherd. Read Psalms 23 again to refresh memory.

Did the Lord ever forsake David ? Punished yes, forsake no.

As long as any child of God’s realizes err and repents … God will restore the hidden manna in their life. How many times will our Lord forgive ? 7 X 70 only ? You know the forgiveness of Christ knows no bounds … toward his adopted prodigal sons/daughters, who confess sins and return to the father.

But, it can’t be only a theoretical knowledge. We must taste of the goodness of the Lord, we must experience his total love and forgiveness for ourselves. Once we do … we will know the salvation assurance David knew and wrote of.

Catholic faith 101 … as taught by OT/NT prophets/apostles/ and ECF’s.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I disagree. David knew his Lord would not forsake him to hell.

I never postulated that God forsook David. I think it is arguable that David made a shipwreck of his faith, by his actions in defiance of God’s commandments.

BRB:

To this degree, he had total assurance he was Kingdom bound. He ALWAYS knew when he had upset His Lord via sin … and EVER desired to keep his relationship ontrack. David was a man after God’s own heart.

You’re putting the cart before the horse here. He was heaven bound when he repented and restored his relationship with God. He was certainly not heaven-bound while he conspired to kill Uriah and take his wife as his own, etc.

BRB:

Yes, he stumbled with some sins and was punished for … but, his desire to regain God’s heart ensured he always realized need to confess his err and restore right relationship to his Lord.

So, you seem to agree that his need to repent and confess is a necessary element for salvation. I agree.

BRB:

The Good Shepherd always protects his flock … and David knew Christ as his Shepherd. Read Psalms 23 again to refresh memory.

I have no doubt that David knew God to be his Shepherd. That does not mean David always knew with absolute certainty that he was going to be with the Lord after his death.

BRB:

Did the Lord ever forsake David ? Punished yes, forsake no.

You are asking the wrong question. I have faith that the Lord will not forsake me, just as he did not forsake David. David forsook the Lord, cutting himself off from that saving grace freely given to him by God.

BRB:

As long as any child of God’s realizes err and repents … God will restore the hidden manna in their life. How many times will our Lord forgive ? 7 X 70 only ? You know the forgiveness of Christ knows no bounds … toward his adopted prodigal sons/daughters, who confess sins and return to the father.

This is entirely consistent with Catholic doctrine. God will always restore His grace to those who repent and return to Him. No questions there. The question is whether David (or you, or me, or anyone) would repent and return. We know the answer, because we know how his story ends. Do you know how your story ends? No, you do not. Hence, your free will is something that must be conformed to Christ, lest you also fall away.

BRB:

But, it can’t be only a theoretical knowledge. We must taste of the goodness of the Lord, we must experience his total love and forgiveness for ourselves. Once we do … we will know the salvation assurance David knew and wrote of.

David did not know, in the midst of his life, that he was going to die in a state of grace thereby gaining heaven. Instead, David’s story is one of a loving relationship with God. David knew God’s love. But David’s story does not support OSAS doctrine.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[BRB]

Robert in SD

A question for you.

Do all of God’s prophets have a place in the Kingdom ?
[Explain your answer to show your rationale].

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert in SD

A question for you.

Do all of God’s prophets have a place in the Kingdom ?
[Explain your answer to show your rationale].

I’d rather stick to the topic, rather than address the particular case of prophets and salvation. Thanks.

Peace,
-Robert