B
Salvation Assurance: Myth or Reality for average Joe / Jane Catholic @ CAF
- Status
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
did any of the prophets say that they had assurance of salvation? tell me where to find it?Not sure of your answer, are you ?
I’m building a case here … play along.
and how about the false prophets at the time? how about false prophets of our times?
King Saul begin as a man of God, what happened to him at the end?
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
Let me add one other point. I think it is safe to say that God always knew that his prophets had a place in heaven. The question that is relevant to the discussion is whether or not the prophets knew with absolute assurance that when their time on earth was at an end they would have such a place. I know of no passage where a prophet declares OSAS doctrine. Instead their general message to the people of Israel implied the opposite - repent and reform your lives or face God’s coming retribution.
Peace,
-Robert
P
Philthy
Guest
Which, of course, eliminates your notion of 100% assurance that we will go to heaven whenever we die. You cant have it both ways - but you try to anyhow here…
Didnt you just say previously that “IF we insist…he will allow our…choice” of apostasy? Now you are saying that we can eliminate our free choice (by praying to have it removed) in this respect? You are going to have to choose which of those two you believe, because they are mutually exclusive. Belief in one excludes belief in the other. While it is comforting to believe we can eliminate it through a single prayer, that simply doesnt make it so. Like it or not the possibility of apostasy and not turning to Christ in prayer - for forgiveness and strength in perseverance - remains a possibility during this life. We dont need to be paranoid, but we do need to be “on watch”.
P
Philthy
Guest
Which only leaves one question unaswered:
“Why is your mouth open?”
P
Philthy
Guest
I said…
Philthy:
Im not sure where you are going with this, but give it up. You have not received ALL of the same gifts that the Apostles recieved. You were not privy to the transfiguration, the multiplication of loaves, the resurrected Christ, Pentecost, etc.
Nothing you say will be recorded as the “Word of God”. And even if you had been chosen in a manner similar to the Apostles, that would say nothing regarding how OTHER Christians experience being chosen. Get over it. When you argue such ridiculous points, it detracts from the valuable contributions you are capable of making because they will be viewed with a skepticism based on the absurdity of your claim above.
that you and I were not chosen. They all had direct private revelation validated by its inclusion in Sacred Scripture. You and I do not and will never enjoy that particular favor to the extent that they enjoyed it, and in that sense we can, in fact, expect less. Does that bother you? To which you responded…
BRB said:
Im not sure where you are going with this, but give it up. You have not received ALL of the same gifts that the Apostles recieved. You were not privy to the transfiguration, the multiplication of loaves, the resurrected Christ, Pentecost, etc.
Nothing you say will be recorded as the “Word of God”. And even if you had been chosen in a manner similar to the Apostles, that would say nothing regarding how OTHER Christians experience being chosen. Get over it. When you argue such ridiculous points, it detracts from the valuable contributions you are capable of making because they will be viewed with a skepticism based on the absurdity of your claim above.
B
BRB
Guest
David had assurance. He was both King and Prophet.
Saul is an interesting study. He is more like many of us … with his sins of disobedience, his jealousy, and tendency to worry about things. He was God’s chosen and David would not harm a hair on his head … out of respect for his title and calling. David loved Saul … which is the real reason he didn’t kill him, when he had his many chances. Indeed, it seems David grieved over the death of Saul more than over Jonathan’s.
Saul always seemed to realize his err … and promptly repented / confessing his sins. Thus, Saul was OSAS … not an apostate.
B
BRB
Guest
Free Will is an option that would allow apostasy … but, we can ‘freely determine’ to remove it from the equation. King David discovered how to do so … and he enjoyed salvation assurance.
It requires swearing an Oath of Allegiance to the Lord … enabling our will to be subject to His. Now, you will say “great … but, how does a unholy human keep his word” ? It would seem impossible for us to guarantee our Oath to the Lord.
Indeed it would be an impossibility … except, we ask the Lord to secure our Oath with His. The Holy Word … can secure our unholy word.
Just like Christ encouraged us to do … “Ask ANYTHING in MY NAME … and it WILL BE DONE.”
Doesn’t also the Lord’s Prayer teach us to pray thusly ? “Lead us not into temptation, but DELIVER US from evil”.
Secure your desire for Salvation Assurance by letting Christ “seal” your desires / intentions. What Christ promises … he ALWAYS delivers.
Does that make one a Robot of Christ ? No, you still have free will to live your life. God doesn’t want robotic automatons as his Children. He does want us to enjoy salvation assurance … if we so desire it.
Whatever the desires of your heart … ask and you will receive.
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
But you can only make this statement looking BACK at Saul’s life. To make such a statement is not to declare that Saul knew with absolute assurance that he was always saved. God always knew it, but I think you would be incorrect to assume that Saul had such a personal assurance of his own salvation.
Peace,
-Robert
P
Philthy
Guest
This is simply a lie, and a dangerous one. You cannot “freely determine” to obviate God’s Will. What Scripture leads you to the above conclusion?
I disagree - Scripture please.
Actually I would question where you made this up from. Where in Scripture is the “oath of allegiance” to God that David discovered, and where in Scripture does it say that David persevered as a result of taking this oath?
Once again, you are being selective. The Sons of Zebedee also had a request for Christ - that they sit, one at his right and one at his left when he ruled over his kingdom. Did he grant that wish to them? No. Was it rejected because it was not asked in His name? No, it was rejected because it was not Gods Will.
Yes it does, well after “Thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE”
God has not willed that our lives be immune from attack by Satan. It’s kind of a mystery, really, but it’s His Will and you dont get to pray your way out of it.
This is yet another example of your non-sensical statements. First off, it wouldnt make Christ a robot, it would make US robots.
But I know what you meant, and what you meant is a logical contradiction nonetheless. To claim that we can “pray” for our free will to be eliminated so that we will never “apostosize” and simultaneously claim that we “still have free will to live our life” is self contradictory.
You need to stop butchering Scripture and start quoting it instead. “If you remain in me and my word remains in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.” John 15:7 No desire of the heart that is not in accord with God’s Will is granted.
I cant pray to be exempted from the need to persevere to the end to be saved. I cant pray that I will be a “follower” of Christ and not deny my self. I could go on and on.
B
BRB
Guest
A lie ? Really !!
You love proof text right?
Ps. 40:8 I delight to do THY WILL, O my Lord …
Mt 6:10 …whoever does the WILL of my Father …
MK3:35 … whoever does the Will of God is my brother …
Jn.7:17 … if any man’s Will is to do his[God’s] will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or …
Acts 21:14 The Will of the Lord be done
Grand Finale’ … 1st John 1:17 And the world pases away, and the lust of it; but he who does the Will of God abides forever.
Don’t you realize one MUST subject their will to the Lord … in order to be counted among the Elect.
How can you become ONE in Christ … unless you submit your Will to him ? The two must become ONE … thru the H.S. This is a clear and constant Gospel message of Disciples John, Peter, and Paul.
Until you submit your ‘free’ will to Christ … you have no part of him. Once we do submit … we gain the keys to the Kingdom.
You have to deny yourself [free will] in order to gain ‘free gift’ of salvation.
Study the life of David in Samuel 1 & 2 … look at what God loved about David, and hated about Saul. David and Christ were totally unified. Saul was always kicking at the goads.
Taking ‘Oath’ to the Lord = Making ‘Covenant’ with the Lord
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
How does this prove a loss of free will. Conforming one’s free will to that of the Father is not a loss of free will. It is an act of free will.
This does not support a present assurance of salvation. It supports a promise (a hope) of future salvation.
Don’t YOU see the distinction between conforming our will to the Father and the loss of free will. God wants our giving of ourselves to be a free will act. He does not want automatons who by definition cannot love.
submitting one’s will to that of the father is not a loss of free will. It is an act of free will to be in conformity with the will of God.
Not so. Grace provides us with faith, from which we respond in love by placing our trust in Him, doing His will, and keeping His commandments. By doing so, we receive grace that saves. By conforming our will to the will of God, graces are received. But again, it is not a loss of free will that results. It is the conformity of free will to God’s will that results.
Peace,
-Robert
M
mikeledes
Guest
John 15:1-6 contradicts the notion of OSAS.
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Instead of imposing our own definitions based on our preconceived theological notions, why don’t we allow Christ to define His own terms. First of all, many proponents of OSAS want us to believe that when Christ says “every branch in Me”, he means “a person that is a member of My visible body (i.e. the Church) but that has not been spiritually united to Me.” Consequently, they make a distinction between being “in Christ” and being “in His visible body.” There are serious problems with this analysis. First of all, what does Jesus say “the Vine” represents? His visible body? No! He clearly states “*I *am the Vine.” In other words, the Vine represents the person of Christ. Branches are logically united to the vine and thus this metaphoric branch must be united to the person of Christ. That is the logical conclusion one draws without doing violence to the text. Otherwise, Jesus would not have referred to the person as a “branch,” since a branch – by definition – is an appendage of a plant (vine, tree, etc.).
Second of all, in every instance we find “in me” or a variant (i.e. “in him”, “in the Son”, etc.), it means a spiritual and salvific union with Christ.
1 John 2:24
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 2:28
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
1 John 3:24
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
See also John 6:56. OSAS proponents even admit that all the other uses of “in me” in John 15 (highlighted above in blue) refer to a spiritual and salvific union with Christ. So then why do they suddenly break away from the standard definition and use – by Christ and John - of “in Me” when it comes to John 15:2, making it the only exception of this established rule?
The third problem is that the “false professor” arguments contradicts Jesus’s own words. False professors can fool Christians, but they can never fool Christ. The “branch” in question is not the one identifying himself as being “in Christ” or having spiritual union with Christ. It is *Christ Himself *who identifies this person as being “in Me.” Christ knows those who are His and I would highly doubt He would identify a false professor as being “in Him,” a phrase that He and the Bible always uses as a reference to those who are genuinely saved.
Fourth of all, lets take another look at John 15:6:
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
The word “abide” in Greek is meno, which means to remain, continue, stay, etc. We find a variant of this same Greek word (epimeno) in Romans 11:22-23, which has a similar theme and clearly refers to true Christians:
**22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in (epimeno) His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in (epimeno) their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. **
We also find this same word (meno) used in the following passages, and the obvious meaning is to continue in the place, condition, or state one is already in:
1 Corinthians 7:11, 20
**11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. **
Acts 16:15
15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Other examples are Matthew 26:38, Acts 5:4, 9:43, 18:20, 21:7, 27:31, 1 Timothy 2:15, etc. So what place, condtion, or state does Jesus say we must abide/ continue/ stay in? He clearly says “IN ME.” Not in “my visible church” or in “fellowship”, but IN CHRIST. And in order to abide/continue/stay or not abide/continue/stay in Him, one must logically be in Him first. Which means that we can cease being in Christ, and hence cease being saved, since there is no salvation outside of Christ. This fits perfectly with what Jesus says regarding those who do not abide/continue/stay in Him. Here is the order of events:
1)cast forth
2)withered
3)cast into the fire and burned
The person/ branch is cut off from Christ the Vine, withers - which means death and is a result of the cutting off - and is cast into the fire (i.e. eternal damnation.) It makes sense that once cut off from the Vine the branch would wither because “life is in the Son” (! John 5:11). If you are cut off from the Son, you are cut off from the source of life and die. Once outside of Christ the Vine, the only end is hell.
Now there are proponents of OSAS who accept that the cast forth branches refer to genuine Christians, but that the “cast into the fire” is not a reference to hell, pointing to other passages that speak about fire (1 Corinthians 3:14-15). It’s true that “fire” in the Bible can refer to a number of different things. However, what gives meaning to a word is often the phrase in which it is being used. For example, "trinity"can mean three of anything. But “the Trinity” refers to God. Another example is the phrase “in Christ.” Used separately, those two words can be used in different senses. Used together, those words have only one meaning. So let’s allow Christ to define His own terms and let’s see how He actually uses “cast into the fire” in other passages.
Matthew 3:10,12
**10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
12"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." **
Matthew 13:49-50
49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Other examples are Matthew 7:19, 18:40-42, etc. In every instance where Jesus uses “cast into the fire” during his preaching/ teaching ministry, He clearly uses it as a reference to eternal damnation. So why must we suddenly change the established use of this phrase in John 15:6? Moreover, note what He says in John 15:6:
**"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Who is the “they” that does the gathering? This exactly corresponds to Jesus’s own description of eternal damnation:
Matthew 13:49-50
49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:39-40
**…and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. **
Consequently, the apostles would have clearly understood what Jesus said in John 15:6 as a reference to eternal damantion. Also note that it is the branch/ person that is cast into the fire and burned, not the person’s works (symbolized by fruit). So John 15:1-6 clearly contradicts the notion of OSAS.
God Bless,
Michael
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Instead of imposing our own definitions based on our preconceived theological notions, why don’t we allow Christ to define His own terms. First of all, many proponents of OSAS want us to believe that when Christ says “every branch in Me”, he means “a person that is a member of My visible body (i.e. the Church) but that has not been spiritually united to Me.” Consequently, they make a distinction between being “in Christ” and being “in His visible body.” There are serious problems with this analysis. First of all, what does Jesus say “the Vine” represents? His visible body? No! He clearly states “*I *am the Vine.” In other words, the Vine represents the person of Christ. Branches are logically united to the vine and thus this metaphoric branch must be united to the person of Christ. That is the logical conclusion one draws without doing violence to the text. Otherwise, Jesus would not have referred to the person as a “branch,” since a branch – by definition – is an appendage of a plant (vine, tree, etc.).
Second of all, in every instance we find “in me” or a variant (i.e. “in him”, “in the Son”, etc.), it means a spiritual and salvific union with Christ.
1 John 2:24
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1 John 2:28
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
1 John 3:24
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
See also John 6:56. OSAS proponents even admit that all the other uses of “in me” in John 15 (highlighted above in blue) refer to a spiritual and salvific union with Christ. So then why do they suddenly break away from the standard definition and use – by Christ and John - of “in Me” when it comes to John 15:2, making it the only exception of this established rule?
The third problem is that the “false professor” arguments contradicts Jesus’s own words. False professors can fool Christians, but they can never fool Christ. The “branch” in question is not the one identifying himself as being “in Christ” or having spiritual union with Christ. It is *Christ Himself *who identifies this person as being “in Me.” Christ knows those who are His and I would highly doubt He would identify a false professor as being “in Him,” a phrase that He and the Bible always uses as a reference to those who are genuinely saved.
Fourth of all, lets take another look at John 15:6:
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
The word “abide” in Greek is meno, which means to remain, continue, stay, etc. We find a variant of this same Greek word (epimeno) in Romans 11:22-23, which has a similar theme and clearly refers to true Christians:
**22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in (epimeno) His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in (epimeno) their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. **
We also find this same word (meno) used in the following passages, and the obvious meaning is to continue in the place, condition, or state one is already in:
1 Corinthians 7:11, 20
**11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. **
Acts 16:15
15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Other examples are Matthew 26:38, Acts 5:4, 9:43, 18:20, 21:7, 27:31, 1 Timothy 2:15, etc. So what place, condtion, or state does Jesus say we must abide/ continue/ stay in? He clearly says “IN ME.” Not in “my visible church” or in “fellowship”, but IN CHRIST. And in order to abide/continue/stay or not abide/continue/stay in Him, one must logically be in Him first. Which means that we can cease being in Christ, and hence cease being saved, since there is no salvation outside of Christ. This fits perfectly with what Jesus says regarding those who do not abide/continue/stay in Him. Here is the order of events:
1)cast forth
2)withered
3)cast into the fire and burned
The person/ branch is cut off from Christ the Vine, withers - which means death and is a result of the cutting off - and is cast into the fire (i.e. eternal damnation.) It makes sense that once cut off from the Vine the branch would wither because “life is in the Son” (! John 5:11). If you are cut off from the Son, you are cut off from the source of life and die. Once outside of Christ the Vine, the only end is hell.
Now there are proponents of OSAS who accept that the cast forth branches refer to genuine Christians, but that the “cast into the fire” is not a reference to hell, pointing to other passages that speak about fire (1 Corinthians 3:14-15). It’s true that “fire” in the Bible can refer to a number of different things. However, what gives meaning to a word is often the phrase in which it is being used. For example, "trinity"can mean three of anything. But “the Trinity” refers to God. Another example is the phrase “in Christ.” Used separately, those two words can be used in different senses. Used together, those words have only one meaning. So let’s allow Christ to define His own terms and let’s see how He actually uses “cast into the fire” in other passages.
Matthew 3:10,12
**10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
12"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." **
Matthew 13:49-50
49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Other examples are Matthew 7:19, 18:40-42, etc. In every instance where Jesus uses “cast into the fire” during his preaching/ teaching ministry, He clearly uses it as a reference to eternal damnation. So why must we suddenly change the established use of this phrase in John 15:6? Moreover, note what He says in John 15:6:
**"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
Who is the “they” that does the gathering? This exactly corresponds to Jesus’s own description of eternal damnation:
Matthew 13:49-50
49"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:39-40
**…and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. **
Consequently, the apostles would have clearly understood what Jesus said in John 15:6 as a reference to eternal damantion. Also note that it is the branch/ person that is cast into the fire and burned, not the person’s works (symbolized by fruit). So John 15:1-6 clearly contradicts the notion of OSAS.
God Bless,
Michael
B
BRB
Guest
Well, you put alot of work into this proof text. But, what does it prove ?
I’d suggest it doesn’t disprove OSAS as you say …
… rather it proves another point you make. That being, Christians are individually liked to Christ’s roots/trunk/vines. We are the terminal shoots off the vine or trunk of tree. Those structures which can produce leaves/fruits. We are the terminal portion of a living tree or grape vine.
But, where is the Church to be found in the tree structure ? Can a Christian remain in Christ apart from the Chruch ? Obviously no … so tell us where is the Church in the Tree of Life ?
This is for Philthy too, he’s my mentor …
P
Philthy
Guest
Awesome Mike!
B
BRB
Guest
PHIL, Phil, phil …
Do you believe in covenants ? What kinds ? Who enforces them ? Can they be secured ?
Give us proof text to support answers …
M
mikeledes
Guest
But the branch that does not abide in the Vine withers - which means death - and is thrown into the fire, which means eternal damnation. That contradicts OSAS.Well, you put alot of work into this proof text. But, what does it prove ?
I’d suggest it doesn’t disprove OSAS as you say …
… rather it proves another point you make. That being, Christians are individually liked to Christ’s roots/trunk/vines. We are the terminal shoots off the vine or trunk of tree. Those structures which can produce leaves/fruits. We are the terminal portion of a living tree or grape vine.
But, where is the Church to be found in the tree structure ? Can a Christian remain in Christ apart from the Chruch ? Obviously no … so tell us where is the Church in the Tree of Life ?
This is for Philthy too, he’s my mentor …
God Bless,
Michael
B
BRB
Guest
Not as it is defined by MOST Protestants and ‘moderate’ fundamentalists. Apostasy is accepted as man’s perogative.
Denunciation of apostasy … is the belief of the more ‘radical’ fundamentalists.
M
mikeledes
Guest
As moondweller pointed it out in the other thread, if you believe that a believer can apostasize, then you do not believe in eternal security/ OSAS. Any Protetant who believes believes salvation can be lost due to apostasy will explicitly tell you they don’t believe in the OSAS doctrine.
God Bless,
Michael
- Status