Salvation by faith alone

[jerry_kelso]

The problem with many Protestants (and some Catholics) is that they rely on the Bible in place of the Church. We should never ask, “Where is that in the Bible?” when seeking to validate a belief. We should ask, instead, “What does the Church teach?” in that regard.

That being said, there are two types of “belief” work here. One is mere intellectual assent. (“Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ.”) The other is real, salvific belief that penetrates our very being, and more importantly, guides our actions. That’s why St. James in his epistle says that faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot save. We must LIVE our faith for it to be effective. And we can do none of this without God’s grace. That’s why the Church says we are saved Sola Gratia (solely by God’s grace). The Church never says we are saved Sola Fide (solely by faith).

Scoobyshme; Paul said no man judged him, but God did. God’s word is inspired and divine and infallible. Man is not infallible and the church is comprised of men. Denominations is technically unscriptural. Denominations have become divisive because the teach their traditions and transgress the commandments of God.
It is true dead faith will not save and in James 2:14 bears this out. Some imply scriptures like this and 1 john 2:w819 to prove that one cannot be really saved and then lose his salvation for these people were really mental assenters. This is true for these people but this does’nt cover everyone across the board. Galatians 5:16-21 show Paul is talking to those who were really saved and if they committed the works of the flesh they would not inherit the kingdom of God. We know if they are not apostate they can repent and be forgiven.
When it says ; "Walk in the spirit and you won’t fulfil the things of the flesh. This is a condition. And there is always a condition in every covenant that has dealt with man’s soul in every age so there is no such thing as iirresistable grace and no unconditional Eternal security! God Bless! Jerry kelso

 

[Della]

Scoobyshme; Paul said no man judged him, but God did. God’s word is inspired and divine and infallible. Man is not infallible and the church is comprised of men. Denominations is technically unscriptural. Denominations have become divisive because the teach their traditions and transgress the commandments of God.

It’s certainly true that God never intended numerous denominations, but it’s not true that the Church is not infallible because it is made up of fallible men. The Church is the Body of Christ, and so, like Christ, it is divine as well as human. Like Christ, in its divinity the Church is infallible–that is in its teachings on matters of faith and morals. It is only fallible in matters of discipline, which are not teachings (doctrine/dogma), but transitory things affected by culture and the dispositions of men. The Church was founded by Christ who declared it would be infallible, indestructible, and his voice in the world. It’s all there in the Gospels.

It is true dead faith will not save and in James 2:14 bears this out. Some imply scriptures like this and 1 john 2:w819 to prove that one cannot be really saved and then lose his salvation for these people were really mental assenters. This is true for these people but this does’nt cover everyone across the board. Galatians 5:16-21 show Paul is talking to those who were really saved and if they committed the works of the flesh they would not inherit the kingdom of God. We know if they are not apostate they can repent and be forgiven.
When it says ; "Walk in the spirit and you won’t fulfil the things of the flesh. This is a condition. And there is always a condition in every covenant that has dealt with man’s soul in every age so there is no such thing as iirresistable grace and no unconditional Eternal security! God Bless! Jerry kelso

Agreed, there are definitely those who are the elect, but we cannot know who they are until the final judgment, which is why we can never presume upon our salvation but always acknowledge we are only poor sinners saved by God’s grace.

 

[PJM]

=nickybr38;6745750]After doing some studying I think I understand this a bit better.

We are indeed saved by faith ‘alone’, except people are misunderstanding…

Faith is not a feeling.

Faith is action.

So Protestants are misunderstanding the concept of being saved by faith alone as are Catholics.

PS: Thank you Pitcharan. I finally GET it.

Hi Nicki,

Your first conclusion is corct; but I’m unclear wht you man about Catholic understanding not being correct? Would you care to clarify your statement?

Love and payers,
Pat

 

[nickybr38]

Hi Nicki,

Your first conclusion is corct; but I’m unclear wht you man about Catholic understanding not being correct? Would you care to clarify your statement?

Love and payers,
Pat

Ah! Sorry, just a misprint on my part.

I just meant that the belief that Catholics teach it is through works that we’re saved is incorrect as well. We act because of our faith, therefore are works are a reflection of our faith not a desperate attempt at salvation.

Does that make more sense? Sometimes I have a difficult time making sense.

 

[PJM]

=diggerdomer;6746710]You’re right fatih involves action, yet faith is also a gift (unearned, undeserved, etc.).

***Undeserved: AGREED?

Unearned… not so much. Why?

Sacramental Grace, most especially Baptism, Confesion and Eucharist;,require “our cooperation” as is God’s plan. Thus we ar endowed with a mind, intellect and freewill. All Spiritual THINGS from God.***

Love and prayers, it pays to be a Catholic

Pat

 

[nickybr38]

***Undeserved: AGREED?

Unearned… not so much. Why?

Sacramental Grace, most especially Baptism, Confesion and Eucharist;,require “our cooperation” as is God’s plan. Thus we ar endowed with a mind, intellect and freewill. All Spiritual THINGS from God.***

Love and prayers, it pays to be a Catholic

Pat

I’d never thought of it that way. More and more I’m starting to see things God has given me that I previously attributed as things I had somehow brought upon myself.

 

[jerry_kelso]

It’s certainly true that God never intended numerous denominations, but it’s not true that the Church is not infallible because it is made up of fallible men. The Church is the Body of Christ, and so, like Christ, it is divine as well as human. Like Christ, in its divinity the Church is infallible–that is in its teachings on matters of faith and morals. It is only fallible in matters of discipline, which are not teachings (doctrine/dogma), but transitory things affected by culture and the dispositions of men. The Church was founded by Christ who declared it would be infallible, indestructible, and his voice in the world. It’s all there in the Gospels.
Agreed, there are definitely those who are the elect, but we cannot know who they are until the final judgment, which is why we can never presume upon our salvation but always acknowledge we are only poor sinners saved by God’s grace.

Della, I was talking about not being infallible as far as interpreting the word not the body itself that belongs to Christ. Most Protestants and Catholics and Messianic Jews believe on the major points in the major doctrines like salvation, healing, second coming. faith, among other things. But, on every jot and tittle not everybody agrees within it’ls own denominations. Those who claim to be apostles had to be tried and still holds true today, that is if you can find a true apostle.
Most of the time it’s not the plain passages about faith and morals that’s hard to understand but how the mechanics of the covenant utilize faith and morals.
There are things that sometimes don’t make sense that can be made clearer by the jewish aspect because the bible was written by the jews . Sometimes. It boils down to hermeneutics and reasoning. If I saw right you said we;(meaning christians) are just poor sinners saved by grace I would have to challenge you on that according to my hermeneutics, reasoning and what I know by experience. And deducing it to the end according to my knowledge of the word of God.
If you are sayng we are poor sinners saved by grace in the context of the past old life of sin I would agree. If you say it in a present tense I would disagree. Then we would present our scriptures and let the word speak for itself. You have plain statements. Aand then sometimes you have to understand the context and then sometimes it take understanding all the contexts on a given subject and put them together and reconcile them together. God Bless! Jerry kelso

 

[diggerdomer]

***Undeserved: AGREED?

Unearned… not so much. Why?

Sacramental Grace, most especially Baptism, Confesion and Eucharist;,require “our cooperation” as is God’s plan. Thus we ar endowed with a mind, intellect and freewill. All Spiritual THINGS from God.***

Love and prayers, it pays to be a Catholic

Pat

We do not earn or merit salvation according to Catholic teaching. If you disagree…reference?

 

[inocente]

Faith is not a feeling.
Faith is action.
So Protestants are misunderstanding the concept of being saved by faith alone as are Catholics.

That may be true of some, but not for me

we can never presume upon our salvation but always acknowledge we are only poor sinners saved by God’s grace.

Spot on.

There are some who find great comfort in Romans 8:38-39, where Paul runs out of words about the strength of their new-found relationship with Christ. And if for now they want to conflate love of God with salvation, that’s OK with me, in time the Spirit will lead the way. They’ll work out that baptism (or however you want to put it) is the start, not the finish.

 

[Della]

Della, I was talking about not being infallible as far as interpreting the word not the body itself that belongs to Christ. Most Protestants and Catholics and Messianic Jews believe on the major points in the major doctrines like salvation, healing, second coming. faith, among other things. But, on every jot and tittle not everybody agrees within it’ls own denominations. Those who claim to be apostles had to be tried and still holds true today, that is if you can find a true apostle.
Most of the time it’s not the plain passages about faith and morals that’s hard to understand but how the mechanics of the covenant utilize faith and morals.
There are things that sometimes don’t make sense that can be made clearer by the jewish aspect because the bible was written by the jews . Sometimes. It boils down to hermeneutics and reasoning. If I saw right you said we;(meaning christians) are just poor sinners saved by grace I would have to challenge you on that according to my hermeneutics, reasoning and what I know by experience. And deducing it to the end according to my knowledge of the word of God.
If you are sayng we are poor sinners saved by grace in the context of the past old life of sin I would agree. If you say it in a present tense I would disagree. Then we would present our scriptures and let the word speak for itself. You have plain statements. Aand then sometimes you have to understand the context and then sometimes it take understanding all the contexts on a given subject and put them together and reconcile them together. God Bless! Jerry kelso

All you have done, in effect, is make yourself the interpreter of God’s word. But you (nor I) have that authority. The Bible is a part of the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. It was compiled mainly for use in the liturgies of the Church, not for proving doctrines/dogmas. It is the main witness to the truths the Church teaches, not the other way around. A great little book on the topic is: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. The NT came after the Church was established and had been preaching and teaching as witnesses to Christ. The NT didn’t make the Church but vice versa. This is extremely important to understand because it goes to the heart of Christ’s teachings and what he intended for the salvation of souls.

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=nickybr38;6748908]I’d never thought of it that way. More and more I’m starting to see things God has given me that I previously attributed as things I had somehow brought upon myself.

Faith is a GIFT friend, pray for it; and THANK GOD for it

 

[Pitcharan]

That may be true of some, but not for me

Spot on.

There are some who find great comfort in Romans 8:38-39, where Paul runs out of words about the strength of their new-found relationship with Christ. And if for now they want to conflate love of God with salvation, that’s OK with me, in time the Spirit will lead the way. They’ll work out that baptism (or however you want to put it) is the start, not the finish.

I have pondered on this subject on several occasions at times for hours. I have now come to believe that salvation (I would like to call it divinisation) is a continuous process in which faith is a fruit of humility and love is an outcome of faith. In other words, a humble person will experience God’s bounty and begin to grow in faith and blossom into a lover of God and His ways. The ultimate state is when he or she is able to overcome the flesh, totally deny self and offer him/her self to God.

Pitcharan

 

[jerry_kelso]

Della, I was tutored under what I consider to be a true apostle and he was not connected to the catholic church or any other church but was of God like the Apostle Paul. I still had to decide whether or not his teaching I felt was the truth and whether or not he was the true apostle. In the end we will all be judged by God himself for what we did or who we decided to believe or follow.
There are certain things with sacraments and baptism, etc, that are in both catholic and protestant denominations that would be more like the early church.
Infallible truth never changes; but everybody likes to think they have the best truth and the best church. In this the catholic church and the protestants are the same. Where the catholic church feels they have the upper hand is in direct historical succession. Protestants feel they have a greater understanding of the spiritual truths which seem to be more in line with the apostolic teaching. Everything has to line up with the word of God, even history and that goes without saying; true history.
I give you a challenge; give me the catholic teaching on the phrase "I die daily in 1 corinthaians 15 and why they believe that. Also, do the same with why Peter is the head of the catholic church of Rome. Then, in turn I will tell you if you have the truth. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[Della]

Dear Jerry,
First of all, as a former Protestant who was very much into reading and absorbing Protestant thought on Scripture I can tell you no Protestant denomination has a leg up on Catholic understanding.

Secondly, I cannot respond to your challenges in this thread because my replies would take it off topic. However, if you wish to start a new thread for each, as per forum rules, I will gladly do so.

And finally, I will not agree that you should be the final arbiter of what is/isn’t a right reasoned, scripturally sound answer from me. No matter how much you (or I) think we know, neither of us is the Magisterium established by Christ. That is who I look to for right interpretation and understanding of doctrine/dogma. Devotional understanding is another matter and open to any person of good will.

 

[jerry_kelso]

Della, I never said who had the most leg up on just how they felt they had the upper hand, I have to go work now but I will start a new post later. God bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[PJM]

=Pitcharan;6769009]I have pondered on this subject on several occasions at times for hours. I have now come to believe that salvation (I would like to call it divinisation) is a continuous process in which faith is a fruit of humility and love is an outcome of faith. In other words, a humble person will experience God’s bounty and begin to grow in faith and blossom into a lover of God and His ways. The ultimate state is when he or she is able to overcome the flesh, totally deny self and offer him/her self to God.

Pitcharan

Romans 8: 38-39 "For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Point 1. Read Chapter 8, vs. 24-39 and the message is different.

Point 2. This describes the precise union of Christ and Catholics in Holy Comunion

**Point 3. ** Christ love is NOT unconitional: Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **Matt.5: 19 **“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ **Matt.19: 17 **“And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Love and prayers,

 

[PaddyMcGurk]

Romans 8: 38-39

**Point 3. ** Christ love is NOT unconitional: Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Love and prayers,

One small problem… I believe that Christ loves all. It is unconditional. He loves the sinner and the saint. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the grace of salvation is unconditional.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis!

 

[Pitcharan]

Romans 8: 38-39 "For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Point 1. Read Chapter 8, vs. 24-39 and the message is different.

Point 2. This describes the precise union of Christ and Catholics in Holy Comunion

**Point 3. ** Christ love is NOT unconitional: Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **Matt.5: 19 **“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ **Matt.19: 17 **“And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Love and prayers,

One small problem… I believe that Christ loves all. It is unconditional. He loves the sinner and the saint. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the grace of salvation is unconditional.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis!

Yes PJM, I concur with Paddy on God’s unconditional love. Now, coming to ‘grant of salvation’, I’ll cite this example and you can draw your own conclusion:
Paul (Saul) initially refused to believe Christ and persecuted christians. Our Lord gave him an extordinary chance to repent and change. Was it not unconditional love?

I think the magnitude and power of God’s love is beyond human comprehension. He is free to love whom He wants to love. But the power of His love can save even the worst human being. I am not suggesting that we can take salvation for granted, however I do believe that we can’t go to hell unless we are hell bent.

 

[PJM]

=PaddyMcGurk;6772897]One small problem… I believe that Christ loves all. It is unconditional. He loves the sinner and the saint. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the grace of salvation is unconditional.

God Bless and Semper Fidelis!

Paddy my friend; you are of course right in your point; but miss the point I made.

While God loves the sinner and hates the sin; as we are to emulate; there are conditions that must be met; must be accomplished in reguard to our personal salvation. These include the crosses the Jewish carpentar makes and gives to us.

Love and prayers,

 

[jerry_kelso]

The Bible says rightly divide the word, be like the bereans to see if they are telling the truth and try those who say they are apostles. So the protestants are correct in not just taking someone’s word that they say has the truth, even an apostle. This process has to do with seeing if it lines up with the word of God. Who helps them know if they are telling the truth? There will be various opinions on that. The Catholics are right on apostolic authority and this is where many protestants don’t have a clue at all. Both Catholics and Protestants need to learn how to put this in the proper perspective. Since there are catholics who believe that some protestants will make it into heaven and some protestants believe that some catholics will make it into heaven then it appears that we cannot agree on the possesion of infallible teachings completely except for salvation and getting to heaven. I guess that’s the most important things though it won’t help much at the judgement of believers personal works. God bless’ Jerry Kelso