Salvation By Grace Alone

[po18guy]

The beatific vision is our goal. Not for our sake, even though we certainly benefit, but for His sake, as He is deserving of eternal praise. Yet, God has chosen to dwell within us, making us His tabernacles. Thus, the Kingdom of God is both upon and within us.

How we accomplish this is best taught by the Church which Christ founded. “He who hears you hears Me.”

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by pablope View Post
How so?

Well, if you are not sure, than how can you ask us to agree to Sola gratia without you knowing what is actually implied by it?

From the link you provided…Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God’s grace, and indeed, that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works—for no one deserves salvation, a concept that some take to the extreme of Antinomianism,

 

[Tomyris]

Well, if you are not sure, than how can you ask us to agree to Sola gratia without you knowing what is actually implied by it?

I didn’t ask you TO agree, as if I am arguing for it, but I asked whether you DO agree.

Big difference.

 

[pablope]

Repeating the question,

For my part I am struggling with the idea that this is something Catholics will agree to. It is rather mind-blowing. Usually if a Protestant talks about salvation by faith, the Catholic will come up with ‘faith without works is dead’ in the next breath, and the Protestant typically says, of course, and then they try to figure out what just happened. The Catholic will think the Protestant wants to skate to heaven on a 1 second prayer, and the Protestant will think the Catholic can only work his way to heaven.

If there is actual agreement on the formulation of Salvation by Grace alone, then we can start looking at its components and look for agreement in them, as well as looking at the other Solas.

A quote from Mcgrath (from page 127; books.google.com/books?id=Zk6MhgGl2MEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Alister Mcgrath quotes: Reformation Thoughts

Whereas Augustine taught that the sinner is made righteous in justification, Melanchthon taught that he is counted as righteous or pronounced to be righteous. For Augustine, ‘justifying righteousness’ is imparted; for Melanchthon, it is imputed in the sense of being declared or pronounced to be righteous. Melanchthon drew a sharp distinction between the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous, designating the former ‘justification’ and the latter ‘sanctification’ or regeneration.’ For Augustine, these were simply different aspects of the same thing… The importance of this development lies in the fact that it marks a complete break with the teaching of the church up to that point. From the time of Augustine onwards, justification had always been understood to refer to both the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous. Melanchthon’s concept of forensic justification diverged radically from this. As it was taken up by virtually all the major reformers subsequently, it came to represent a standard difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic from then on…The Council of Trent…reaffirmed the views of Augustine on the nature of justification… the concept of forensic justification actually represents a development in Luther’s thought… Trent maintained the medieval tradition, stretching back to Augustine, which saw justification as comprising both an event and a process…

Starting with Augustine, the Roman Catholic tradition has understood justification as the entire process by which God forgives and then transforms Christians. Based on their reading of the use of “justification” in Paul’s letters, the Reformers took justification to refer specifically to God’s forgiveness and acceptance. The term “sanctification” was used to refer to the lifelong process of transformation. Thus the Roman Catholic term “justification” effectively includes both what Protestants refer to as “justification” and “sanctification.” This difference in definitions can result in confusion, effectively exaggerating the disagreement. However the difference in definitions reflects a difference in substance. In the Protestant concept, justification is a status before God that is entirely the result of God’s activity and that continues even when humans sin. Thus using different words for justification and sanctification reflects a distinction between aspects of salvation that are entirely the result of God’s activity, and those that involve human cooperation. The Roman Catholic tradition uses a single term, in part, because it does not recognize a distinction of this type. For the Roman Catholic tradition, while everything originates with God, the entire process of justification requires human cooperation, and serious sin compromises it.[1]

So there is indeed a difference in substance between Protestants (Reformers) and the CC concepts or understanding.

 

[PluniaZ]

A quote from Mcgrath (from page 127; books.google.com/books?id=Zk6MhgGl2MEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Alister Mcgrath quotes: Reformation Thoughts

Whereas Augustine taught that the sinner is made righteous in justification, Melanchthon taught that he is counted as righteous or pronounced to be righteous. For Augustine, ‘justifying righteousness’ is imparted; for Melanchthon, it is imputed in the sense of being declared or pronounced to be righteous. Melanchthon drew a sharp distinction between the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous, designating the former ‘justification’ and the latter ‘sanctification’ or regeneration.’ For Augustine, these were simply different aspects of the same thing… The importance of this development lies in the fact that it marks a complete break with the teaching of the church up to that point. From the time of Augustine onwards, justification had always been understood to refer to both the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous. Melanchthon’s concept of forensic justification diverged radically from this. As it was taken up by virtually all the major reformers subsequently, it came to represent a standard difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic from then on…The Council of Trent…reaffirmed the views of Augustine on the nature of justification… the concept of forensic justification actually represents a development in Luther’s thought… Trent maintained the medieval tradition, stretching back to Augustine, which saw justification as comprising both an event and a process…

Starting with Augustine, the Roman Catholic tradition has understood justification as the entire process by which God forgives and then transforms Christians. Based on their reading of the use of “justification” in Paul’s letters, the Reformers took justification to refer specifically to God’s forgiveness and acceptance. The term “sanctification” was used to refer to the lifelong process of transformation. Thus the Roman Catholic term “justification” effectively includes both what Protestants refer to as “justification” and “sanctification.” This difference in definitions can result in confusion, effectively exaggerating the disagreement. However the difference in definitions reflects a difference in substance. In the Protestant concept, justification is a status before God that is entirely the result of God’s activity and that continues even when humans sin. Thus using different words for justification and sanctification reflects a distinction between aspects of salvation that are entirely the result of God’s activity, and those that involve human cooperation. The Roman Catholic tradition uses a single term, in part, because it does not recognize a distinction of this type. For the Roman Catholic tradition, while everything originates with God, the entire process of justification requires human cooperation, and serious sin compromises it.[1]

So there is indeed a difference in substance between Protestants (Reformers) and the CC concepts or understanding.

This is exactly right. I was a member of a conservative PCA congregation for 2 years, and forensic justification was the doctrine, emphasized over and over again, every week. Predestination, TULIP, all that other stuff was barely mentioned. The message every week was, “We’re sinners, but it’s ok, God views us as if we are as righteous as Jesus. That is the mystery of the gospel and should humble us and lead us to do good works.”

It sounded good at first, but 2 years of deliberate sinning, with my conscience screaming at me that what I was doing was wrong and my PCA voice telling me that my conscience was denying the fundamental message of the Gospel, was too much schizophrenia to bear.

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless every readers of the CAF.

SALVATION / JUSTIFICATION

I believe this is the most important issue in Christianity.**

To understand Salvation/Justification we must understand first the related theological issues.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

The first theological issue must be understand is, our inward part (spirit + soul) and our outward part (Body) described in Luke 11:39; Rom.7:14-25; 2 Cor.4:16; Gal.5:16-25; Eph.3:16; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; etc.

2 Cor.4:16;
Therefore we do not lose heart.
Even though our outward man (body) is perishing, yet the inward man (our spirit + soul) is being renewed day by day. In the bracket is added.

Rom.7:22-23;
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (our spirit + soul).
But I see another law in my members (body), warring against in the law of my mind (spirit + soul), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (body). In the bracket is added.

Gal.5:16-18;
v. 16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the last of the flesh.

v. 17. For the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

v. 18. But is you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom.8:23;
… eagerly waiting for the ADOPTION, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

1 Cor.15:42-44;
v. 42. So also the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

v. 43. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. …

v. 43. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At our baptism our inward man (spirit + soul) saved/justified/adopted, DECLARED righteous and MADE righteous, we became sons of God, while our outward man (body) NOT YET adopted/redeemed.

Still the law of sin resides in our bodies, NOT YET adopted/redeemed and when we die our corrupt bodies goes to the grave in dishonor, and in corruption in an unredeemed state.

But will be raised from the grave as incorruptible, glorified, spiritual bodies at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:51-57.

Continue

 

[James248]

**God bless every readers of the CAF.

SALVATION / JUSTIFICATION

I believe this is the most important** issue in Christianity.

To understand Salvation/Justification we must understand first the related theological issues.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

The first theological issue must be understand is, our inward part (spirit + soul) and our outward part (Body) described in Luke 11:39; Rom.7:14-25; 2 Cor.4:16; Gal.5:16-25; Eph.3:16; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; etc.

2 Cor.4:16;
Therefore we do not lose heart.
Even though our outward man (body) is perishing, yet the inward man (our spirit + soul) is being renewed day by day. In the bracket is added.

Rom.7:22-23;
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (our spirit + soul).
But I see another law in my members (body), warring against in the law of my mind (spirit + soul), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (body). In the bracket is added.

Gal.5:16-18;
v. 16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the last of the flesh.

v. 17. For the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

v. 18. But is you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom.8:23;
… eagerly waiting for the ADOPTION, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

1 Cor.15:42-44;
v. 42. So also the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

v. 43. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. …

v. 43. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At our baptism our inward man (spirit + soul) saved/justified/adopted, DECLARED righteous and MADE righteous, we became sons of God, while our outward man (body) NOT YET adopted/redeemed.

Still the law of sin resides in our bodies, NOT YET adopted/redeemed and when we die
our corrupt bodies goes to the grave in dishonor, and in corruption in an unredeemed state.

But will be raised from the grave as incorruptible, glorified, spiritual bodies at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:51-57.

Continue

Are we not to WALK in the spirit?

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**SECOND THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

We must understand Baptism, but even before we understand baptism, we must understand our fallen spiritual position.**

OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is** BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING** because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14 Emphasis mine.

To be able to receive anything from the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”

Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.

**BAPTISM OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT
**
In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in understanding of baptism.

**GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

The sequence of events of our baptism.**

1. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

We may call it our first purgatory as God has completely washed us clean. **– It was an instant event.
**

1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

3.** In heaven** God baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

4.** In the Body of Christ** God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us righteous and MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us righteous and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
3. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple and siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless every readers of the CAF.

SALVATION / JUSTIFICATION

I believe this is the most important issue in Christianity.**

To understand Salvation/Justification we must understand first the related theological issues.

FIRST THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

The first theological issue must be understand is, our inward part (spirit + soul) and our outward part (Body) described in Luke 11:39; Rom.7:14-25; 2 Cor.4:16; Gal.5:16-25; Eph.3:16; 1 Cor.15:42-44, 51-57; etc.

2 Cor.4:16;
Therefore we do not lose heart.
Even though our outward man (body) is perishing, yet the inward man (our spirit + soul) is being renewed day by day. In the bracket is added.

Rom.7:22-23;
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (our spirit + soul).
But I see another law in my members (body), warring against in the law of my mind (spirit + soul), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (body). In the bracket is added.

Gal.5:16-18;
v. 16. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the last of the flesh.

v. 17. For the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

v. 18. But is you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Rom.8:23;
… eagerly waiting for the ADOPTION, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

1 Cor.15:42-44;
v. 42. So also the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

v. 43. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. …

v. 43. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. …

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At our baptism our inward man (spirit + soul) saved/justified/adopted, DECLARED righteous and MADE righteous, we became sons of God, while our outward man (body) NOT YET adopted/redeemed.

Still the law of sin resides in our bodies, NOT YET adopted/redeemed and when we die our corrupt bodies goes to the grave in dishonor, and in corruption in an unredeemed state.

But will be raised from the grave as incorruptible, glorified, spiritual bodies at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:15-18; 1 Cor.15:51-57.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**SECOND THEOLOGICAL ISSUE

We must understand Baptism, but even before we understand baptism, we must understand our fallen spiritual position.**

OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is** BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING** because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14 Emphasis mine.

To be able to receive anything from the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”

Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.

**BAPTISM OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT
**
In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in understanding of baptism.

**GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

The sequence of events of our baptism.**

1. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

We may call it our first purgatory as God has completely washed us clean. **– It was an instant event.
**

1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.

3.** In heaven** God baptized us into the body of Christ, – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.

4.** In the Body of Christ** God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us righteous and MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.

1. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us righteous and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
2. In heaven in Christ (our spirit + soul) have been built into God’s Holy Temple. for a habitation of God in the Spirit. – Eph.2:19-22.
3. God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, –Eph.2:6.

** “AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.**

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ** by our baptism** and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote.
The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Because it is a MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the SAME TIME our (spirit + soul) is in heaven built into God’s Holy Temple and siting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and it is on the earth as well.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Our initial justification in our baptism is an instant event, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we cannot even co-operated with the grace of God.

First reason: In our fallen state, we are spiritually dead and we accept nothing from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

Second reason: Our initial justification and born again in our baptism is an instant event.

Third reason: The above work of God takes us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.

John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

**FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination? **

Predestination is gratuitous: …for even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

God’s grace appears to all men (e.g.Tit. 2:11), and man’s initial “response” is the omission of resistance, which he identifies as an “ontological zero,”
meaning man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification.

Meaning man does nothing and could do nothing, to enter the state of (initial) justification. – Because spiritually dead at the beginning and the end initially justified, born again and in the state of grace, the whole process is an instant event.

In the sequence of the events, first God does His part in our Baptism, as the results; we are spiritually alive/born again, initially justified, and we are in the state of grace.

In the FIRST STAGE of our salvation (initial justification): At baptism God puts us into the state of grace, by declared and made us righteous, taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven, in heaven have been built us into His Holy Temple, in heaven made us sitting together in Christ Jesus.

Without being in the state of grace we could NOT co-operate with the grace of God because we are spiritually dead.

In the SECOND STAGE of our salvation: God gives us His gift of Formed Faith and we are able to positively respond to it, BECAUSE we are already in the state of grace, born again, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple, in heaven we are sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, AT THE SAME TIME (our spirit + soul) in the earth as well (in our unredeemed/corrupt bodies) and we are able to co-operate with the grace of God.

**The SECOND STAGE of our salvation: ** The second stage of our salvation is (as God’s elect) from the point God does His part in our baptism until we die, and when we die it is the end of the mystery because we are (our spirit + soul) only in heaven (not in heaven and on the earth as well) and our corrupt bodies are in the grave.

As we see above the necessity of God’s works in our baptism is absolute.

Apart from God first does His part in our baptism we are spiritually dead and we “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.

It is SOLELY God’s work and always PRECEDES our water baptism.

This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in, because at this point we are born again, initially justified, we are in the state of grace and we are not yet water baptized.

Sometimes it is a great distance between God does his part in our baptism and we do our part in our water baptism.

If some reason we are not able to do our part of our water baptism that doesn’t stop God to do His part of our baptism which gives us initial justification, spiritual resurrection/born again and puts us into the state of grace.

And of course God’s part to do in our baptism, always PRECEDES our water baptism.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**THIRD THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS GOD’S ELECTION

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?**

Fr. Most himself leans toward a school of thought known as Thomism, which he develops in summary as follows:

Predestination is gratuitous: …for even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

God’s grace appears to all men (e.g.Tit. 2:11), and man’s initial “response” is the omission of resistance, which he identifies as an “ontological zero,” meaning man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification.

In a related paragraph:

The SECOND STAGE follows, in which grace moves us further, so that we do MAKE A DECISION:

"It is God who . . . works in you both the WILL and the PERFORMANCE."

Of course, we do actively cooperate with grace in the SECOND stage.

The entire process need not take more than one instant of time. (#82)

So, in summary the initial response is one of omission of resistance, followed by a positive response in grace.

Thomism emphasize the role of grace in human actions.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.

But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

Similarly, the Council of Orange says that “in every good work, we do not begin.” (#329.2)

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.

2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”

Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”

John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.

In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE FOURTH THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS THE PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

THE BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

Practically by their vehement rejection of God and His grace the reprobates predestined themselves to hell.

In Catholic Theology only the reprobates end up in hell who are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellations from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose their salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

As we see above, Concerning the Book of Life there is only two group of people in the world.

God’s children/elect. – All predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world.

The Salvation/Everlasting Life of every Child/Elect of God is protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, without this protection every Child/Elect of God would end up in hell.

Every Child/Elect of God have been given the Great Commission to one way or an other, **to be an ambassador of the Lord Jesus Christ. **

God’s Children/Elect’s position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the judgment of their works, of course their salvation is not at stake, it is Eternally Protected.

The other group is the reprobates. – All reprobates predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

There is no in between position, **every member of the entire human race is a member one of the above two groups. **

God bless every reader of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[James248]

Continuation

**THIRD THEOLOGICAL ISSUE WE SHOULD KNOW IS GOD’S ELECTION

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?**

Fr. Most himself leans toward a school of thought known as Thomism, which he develops in summary as follows:

Predestination is gratuitous: …for even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

God’s grace appears to all men (e.g.Tit. 2:11), and man’s initial “response” is the omission of resistance, which he identifies as an “ontological zero,” meaning man does NOTHING, to enter a state of justification.

In a related paragraph:

The SECOND STAGE follows, in which grace moves us further, so that we do MAKE A DECISION:

"It is God who . . . works in you both the WILL and the PERFORMANCE."

Of course, we do actively cooperate with grace in the SECOND stage.

The entire process need not take more than one instant of time. (#82)

So, in summary the initial response is one of omission of resistance, followed by a positive response in grace.

Thomism emphasize the role of grace in human actions.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.

But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

Similarly, the Council of Orange says that “in every good work, we do not begin.” (#329.2)

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.

2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”

Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”

John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.

In other words, when God commands, He capacitates the hearer to respond.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

Continue

Remember the parable of the Talents. We don’t earn God’s grace, but we must double it.

 

[LatinRight]

Remember the parable of the Talents. We don’t earn God’s grace, but we must double it.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

I working on to multiply it a thousand times at least.

LatinRight

 

[po18guy]

This is exactly right. I was a member of a conservative PCA congregation for 2 years, and forensic justification was the doctrine, emphasized over and over again, every week. Predestination, TULIP, all that other stuff was barely mentioned. The message every week was, “We’re sinners, but it’s ok, God views us as if we are as righteous as Jesus. That is the mystery of the gospel and should humble us and lead us to do good works.”

It sounded good at first, but 2 years of deliberate sinning, with my conscience screaming at me that what I was doing was wrong and my PCA voice telling me that my conscience was denying the fundamental message of the Gospel, was too much schizophrenia to bear.

Amen! Praise to You, Most Holy Spirit!

 

[po18guy]

I didn’t ask you TO agree, as if I am arguing for it, but I asked whether you DO agree.

Big difference.

Strictly speaking, ‘grace alone’ eliminates Christ’s atonement - unless God could not give grace without the atonement, which would then deny His omnipotence. Grace alone, without further qualification, eliminates faith, hope and charity. It cannot mean that, so a working definition is needed.

The causes of the reformation were long ago addressed. The only chance of reconciliation today is to undo the reformation. That happens soul by soul as its fruits are called into question.

Definitions are critical. To a satanist, God Himself is not needed for “salvation” to hell.

 

[Wesrock]

In Catholic Theology only the reprobates end up in hell who are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

To confirm, we only attain to heaven by supernatural means (God’s election) and the reprobates merit Hell through their own fault.

 

[LatinRight]

How so?

Does sola gratia imply that salvation is already “in the bag”?

Does sola gratia imply an internal change in man vs just an external declaration?

God bless Pablope and every readers of the CAF.

I like your post and the way you put it ‘salvation is already “in the bag.”’

If someone is a child/elect of God, in what point his/her salvation is “in the bag”?

Of course in Catholic theology we cannot know until we die we are God’s child/elect or not.

This is not an issue here, the issue is, if someone is a God’s child/elect: What is the point when his/her salvation is “in the bag”?

Answers:
a. At the point of his/her election.
b. At the point of his/her baptism.
c. At the point when he/she dies in the state of grace.

**Which one of my above answer is correct a, b, or c.?

Thanks in advance.**

God bless Pablope and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[Billy_Buescher]

If someone is a child/elect of God, in what point his/her salvation is “in the bag”?

Of course in Catholic theology we cannot know until we die we are God’s child/elect or not.

This is not an issue here, the issue is, if someone is a God’s child/elect: What is the point when his/her salvation is “in the bag”?

Answers:
a. At the point of his/her election.
b. At the point of his/her baptism.
c. At the point when he/she dies in the state of grace.

**Which one of my above answer is correct a, b, or c.?

Thanks in advance.**

God bless Pablope and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

I would have to choose A.