Salvation by works alone?

[agapedoulos]

Nowhere does the Church ever say that salvation by works is possible. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10:

For by **grace **you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the **good works **that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Grace is the gift. We reciprocate by showing faith and doing the works laid out for us by God. You can’t be saved with works alone or faith alone. It’s a package.

It is a “package” because if you truly have faith then the fruit is works. Works spring out from faith, from the work of God in your life as he has made His abode in you. Works are the evidence of true faith.

 

[agapedoulos]

I agree 100% with the above. I am quite certain that NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that “good works alone” will save you/get you to Heaven, etc… Just as NOWHERE in the Bible does it say “faith alone” will save you/get you to Heaven, etc…

Take a good look at James 2:14-26. That should clear it up for the “faith alone” and “works alone” crowds, respectively.

I like James because it is pretty straight-forward and easy to interpret. I also think it is underappreciated and undervalued by many. Just my opinion.

I disagree. There are plenty of passages that say faith in our Savior Jesus Christ saves not works and James is stating the fact if you truly have faith then you will naturally have works! Works are the evidence of our faith.

 

[snarflemike]

What is wrong with salvation by works is that if we could be saved by our works of righteousness, then why did Jesus have to die? Also, salvation by works would require a minimum amount of works to be saved…who knows how much is enough?

I’m not arguing for works salvation, but I’ve got two questions based on your questions:

If we could be saved by our faith, then why did Jesus have to die?

Also, salvation by faith would require a minimum amount of faith to be saved…who knows how much is enough?

 

[agapedoulos]

Whenever you hear anyone say you are saved by “fill in the blank alone” be very weary.

Why? Please explain. Isn’t faith the only way God has made for salvation? Aren’t works evidence of faith but are not the means of it?

The Bible says: For by Grace you HAVE been saved through FAITH and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8 And the Bible goes on to declare that works DO NOT SAVE> “not by works lest anyone should boast”. Ephesians 2:9 and “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by the works of the law” Romans 3:28

 

[agapedoulos]

The Catholic Church has never, does not now, and never will teach this. The Church teaches that faith without works is dead and that dead faith will not save anyone . (See James 2:14-26)

Matthew 25:31-46 is also very clear on this.

Agree! Works without faith is dead=no faith. Dead faith=no faith. Faith produces works, hence you are saved by faith! Romans 3:28. Ephesians 2:8-9 and so many others. In James 2:14-26. James says “what does it profit a man if he SAYS he has faith and does not have works?..“Show me your faith without works”
How can one show faith without obedience and works? That person has no faith, right? Faith should produce works!
James goes on to say " I will show you my faith by my works” --He is saying that the proof of real faith is works!! Faith produces works!! We are saved by faith not of works but if you truly have faith then you will naturally obey and have works. That is is evidence of true faith. As believers, our faith changes our lives, we obey and willingly and lovingly live our lives serving your Lord but we are not saved by our works “lest any should boast”. Eph. 2:9. We need to take both passages and reconcile the fact that they were both in agreement not disagrement. The reason we non-Catholics focus on salvation by faith is because the Bible declares that is the only way to be saved. Works cause self-righteousness. We recognize there is no pure goodness in me. Only my faith in the sacrifice of Jesus saves me. I then willingly become his doulos (bond servant, slave) out of the love I have for Him because He first loved and saved me. Works are my joy not the means of my salvation.

Love that we all are eager to do works! That is our reasonable service! Rom 12:1

 

[thenobes]

Why? Please explain. Isn’t faith the only way God has made for salvation? Aren’t works evidence of faith but are not the means of it?

The Bible says: For by Grace you HAVE been saved through FAITH and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8 And the Bible goes on to declare that works DO NOT SAVE> “not by works lest anyone should boast”. Ephesians 2:9 and “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by the works of the law” Romans 3:28

No, works are not merely evidence of Faith. They are supporters of faith. They keep it alive.

One has to make an assent of the will in order to even begin to carry out the works that the Holy Spirit inspires us to do. This assent is the means God gives us to keep our faith alive.

Not only keep faith alive, but give it means to grow and build perfection perfection in our souls. And it is the state of our souls which will be tested for gold or straw.

peace
steve

 

[agapedoulos]

I’m not arguing for works salvation, but I’ve got two questions based on your questions:

If we could be saved by our faith, then why did Jesus have to die?

Also, salvation by faith would require a minimum amount of faith to be saved…who knows how much is enough?

Jesus died as an atonement for your sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 declares: “God made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”. We know from the Old Testament that the wages of sin is death…Jesus died on our behalf. We are saved by faith in this truth. Jesus said “As Moses lifted up the snake on a pole, so the Son of Man must be lifted up” John 3:14. If you know the Old Testament account that Jesus was referring to you know that the people were saved from the snake bite by “looking upon” the snake on the pole. This was a prophecy of Jesus. He hung on the cross to take our sins and make us whole. It is our faith in this Gospel that saves us. When we believe we are then given the Holy Spririt to guide us, we obey unto good works out of love.

Second question was my own. What is the minimum work required for salvation? I have heard that saints had an extra amount that was then deposited in the “Treasury of Merits” according to Catholic faith, but what is the minimum according to Catholic faith?

 

[agapedoulos]

No, works are not merely evidence of Faith. They are supporters of faith. They keep it alive.

One has to make an assent of the will in order to even begin to carry out the works that the Holy Spirit inspires us to dot. This assent is the means God gives us to keep our faith alive.

Not only keep faith alive, but give it means to grow and build perfection perfection in our souls. And it is the state of our souls which will be tested for gold or straw.

peace
steve

OK so works are the supporters of faith but not the means of salvation, right? I agree that we have to obey the inspritation of the Holy Spirit and the Bible does talk about quenching the Spirit, so yes obedience is needed. Can works keep our faith alive and merit salvation? I am not sure based on Jesus’ letter to the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2
“Unto the church at Ephesus write…I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst stand them which are evil, and thou has tried them which say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; And has borne, and hast patientce and for my name sake has labored and has not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because you have left your first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come to thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick our his place, except you repent”.

Seems they had works and laboured but left their first love. We must be careful then to love our Lord of our God above all things first…Worship first and work out of worship, otherwise those works have no power to keep our faith alive. Right?

Peace and love to you to brother!

 

[snarflemike]

Jesus died as an atonement for your sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 declares: “God made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”. We know from the Old Testament that the wages of sin is death…Jesus died on our behalf. We are saved by faith in this truth. Jesus said “As Moses lifted up the snake on a pole, so the Son of Man must be lifted up” John 3:14. If you know the Old Testament account that Jesus was referring to you know that the people were saved from the snake bite by “looking upon” the snake on the pole. This was a prophecy of Jesus. He hung on the cross to take our sins and make us whole. It is our faith in this Gospel that saves us. When we believe we are then given the Holy Spririt to guide us, we obey unto good works out of love.

I think you’re just creating a definition of “faith” on the fly here. But in any case, suppose I pay the mortgage of somebody who’s about to lose their house. They get to keep the house whether they know I paid the mortgage or not, whether they believe it or not.

Second question was my own. What is the minimum work required for salvation? I have heard that saints had an extra amount that was then deposited in the “Treasury of Merits” according to Catholic faith, but what is the minimum according to Catholic faith?

I’ll answer that when you tell me how much faith is the minimum to be saved, since you brought up the matter.

 

[Qoeleth]

What is wrong with salvation by works is that if we could be saved by our works of righteousness, then why did Jesus have to die? Also, salvation by works would require a minimum amount of works to be saved…who knows how much is enough? Where are we told that in the Bible? Most importantly is the Bible itself declares we cannot be saved by our works:
Romans 3:23 declares that “all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God”. There is none righteous no not one. Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21
1.Saved by grace A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”
B.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
C.(Galatians 2:16) - “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

2.Saved by works A.(James 2:24) - “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”
B.(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Question 2: How do I know that I am saved? Jesus said so: “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my mesage and believe in God who sent me HAVE eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have ALREADY passed from death to life” John 5:24
Also John 1:12 “as many as recieved Him he have power to become sons of God”. As I son I have been given the Holy Spirit to reside in me as proof on sonship. Jesus said that if “anyone love Me, he will keep my WORD; and My Father will love him; and We will come to hime and make Our abode with them. He who does not love me will not keep my word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me” John 14:23
Because Jesus so loved me (you and all of us), he sent His only son to the world that none should perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). Because I have believed and recieved his love I in turn love him (commandment one) and my desire is to serve Him for his great mercy and love. Works are a sign of the love we have for God (John 14:23). We are pleased to be his willing slaves not for my salvation because He has already granted it, but for the love I have for Him. Every breath I take and every thought I willingly submit to God for his use so because I love Him. Because I love Him it is my great joy to obey and keep his Word.

I think we both desire to do good works but the difference is that I as a non-catholic simpy do it as a fruit of the Spirit that resides in me, with great joy not for salvation. I actually love Him because of the fact that while I was yet a sinner (enemy no good works), Christ died for me, the ungodly. It is his mercy that causes my love and surrender. Good works are simply a reasonable response to His great love. “I urge you brothers, in view of God’s mercy, offer your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of worship” Rom 12:1

Peace and love to you! Read the scriptures so that you can find better answers that the ones given here.

Agape!

It seems there are two strands in Scripture- that of Matthew and James (in continuity with Deuteronomy), which emphasis works- “God judges us on our deeds.” The other is that of Paul (“Faith alone saves”.)

I concede that Paul presents a doctrine of salvation by faith. But still, the final Judgmenet in Matthew 25 seems pretty definitive, as to the sorting of the sheep from the goats, by what we do and what we fail to.

Its seems as if there is a difference in doctrine between Matthew and Paul. James brings them together, by saying there is no faith without works. And true enough- a person who says “I believe” but does no good works is like a person saying “I believe in exercise”, but then doing none!

But what of the case where a person has no (expressed) faith, yet does good works? According to Mathew 25, it would seem they will be saved- by ‘doing’ the will of the Father, not by saying ‘Lord, Lord’. Or is it that people who do good works really do have faith, although they don’t know it?

 

[thenobes]

Jesus died as an atonement for your sins. 2 Cor. 5:21 declares: “God made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”.

Actually the phrase “to be sin” means “to become a sin offering”. This was His propitiation to the Father as an act of perfect obedience, an obedience we lacked.

We know from the Old Testament that the wages of sin is death…Jesus died on our behalf.

As a sin offering. To propitiate the Father for our sins. Not as a legal requirement of s “Divine Justice”. Jesus was inocent and it is unjust to punish an innocent man for another’s crimes.

We are saved by faith in this truth. Jesus said “As Moses lifted up the snake on a pole, so the Son of Man must be lifted up” John 3:14. If you know the Old Testament account that Jesus was referring to you know that the people were saved from the snake bite by “looking upon” the snake on the pole. This was a prophecy of Jesus. He hung on the cross to take our sins and make us whole.

Not to take our sins but to provide perfect obedience, as a sin offering.

It is our faith in this Gospel that saves us.

No, a faith in Christ Himself, and all His commands to us. We are to remain in Him to be saved, and the way to do this is by eating His Body and drinking His Blood, as He said. Thus we need a living Faith in Christ. A faith Working in Love, the love he asked of us. Obdience to the one who perfects our obedience.

When we believe, we are then given the Holy Spririt to guide us, and we obey unto good works out of love.

And the good works keep our faith alive and growing

Second question was my own. What is the minimum work required for salvation?

True repentance of sin before death is the minimum. It is a work of the Holy Spirit which when assented to us by faith, maintains a flame of life in our faith.

I have heard that saints had an extra amount that was then deposited in the “Treasury of Merits” according to Catholic faith, but what is the minimum according to Catholic faith?

The extra amount was over and above what they needed to perfectly cleanse their own soul and maintain their faith. Works have a secondary effect of cleansing ones soul (as well as keep faith alive).

The minimum work is that which accompanies an assent of the will to follow the Holy Spirit’s promptings to repent of our works and obey Jesus.

peace
steve

 

[thenobes]

OK so works are the supporters of faith but not the means of salvation, right? I agree that we have to obey the inspritation of the Holy Spirit and the Bible does talk about quenching the Spirit, so yes obedience is needed. Can works keep our faith alive and merit salvation? I am not sure based on Jesus’ letter to the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2
“Unto the church at Ephesus write…I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst stand them which are evil, and thou has tried them which say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; And has borne, and hast patientce and for my name sake has labored and has not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because you have left your first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come to thee quickly and will remove thy candlestick our his place, except you repent”.

Seems they had works and laboured but left their first love. We must be careful then to love our Lord of our God above all things first…Worship first and work out of worship, otherwise those works have no power to keep our faith alive. Right?

Peace and love to you to brother!

Yes, I haven’t looked closely at that passage in regard to this topic, but it seems that their first works became mixed with works emanating from their own desires.

Their sole desire should have been to please God through obedience. Failure requires repentance. And worship will move our wills toward obedience,when we realize all that we have been given by Him.

peace
steve

 

[XianThinker]

I’m a non-denominational Bible Christian. I think Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that a person is saved after accepting Jesus through faith. It is unmerited and not something that can be earned through any works. Of course, believing in Jesus includes believing in what he taught. Jesus taught that God will grant salvation to those who believe in Jesus and live to please God instead of themselves. One must love God which includes striving to obey his commandments.

Anyone who truly believes Jesus and what he taught will chose to love God and live to please him. Anyone who doesn’t love God or care about his commandments doesn’t really believe in Jesus (he may believe in Jesus’ existence or believe Jesus died for his sins, but he certainly wouldn’t believe in everything he taught and would make him out to be a liar instead of the Son of God).

I think true saving faith without works is impossible. If Noah believed God about the flood but refused to build an ark, would he have been saved from the flood? I think not. His refusal to build an ark would have showed he didn’t really believe.

I’m not sure works (loving God by living to please him and striving to do his will) without faith is possible either. After all, how can you love God and live to please him if you don’t believe he exists?

I’d say faith and works go together. I think we will ultimately be judged based on our actions (loving God and living for Him) but we first need faith to know God and what he desires.

 

[agapedoulos]

I think you’re just creating a definition of “faith” on the fly here. But in any case, suppose I pay the mortgage of somebody who’s about to lose their house. They get to keep the house whether they know I paid the mortgage or not, whether they believe it or not.

I’ll answer that when you tell me how much faith is the minimum to be saved, since you brought up the matter.

How would you define faith? Your scenario ignores that Jesus requires belief to recieve the gift of salvation. John 3:16 “…whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life”. If belief does not matter then why convert anyone? Why did Jesus command to make deciples of all men? Faith in Jesus saves us.

I do not believe there is a minumum amount of faith to be saved. Eigther you believe He is the Son of God, our Messiah, or not. I’ve never read anyware in the Bible of any minimum requirement of faith. It is Catholics that support an amount of works that saves and have a “treausury of merits”.

I don’t intend to argue just to try to understand.

 

[JRKH]

I disagree. There are plenty of passages that say faith in our Savior Jesus Christ saves not works and James is stating the fact if you truly have faith then you will naturally have works! Works are the evidence of our faith.

Yes - This is correct…And we can go around for a long time trying to “split hairs” over this matter.
But the bottom line is that if, in the normal course of a Christian life, we do not have works then we will not be saved…
So - we had better be examining what and how well we are doing in our actions and not just in our “beliefs” ( intellectual ascent).

To me - one of the best examples - from Jesus himself no less - covering this subject, and one that I don’t often see mentioned…in the rush to place James and Paul in perspective is this from Mt 21
21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
If these people, who displayed these things that are often referred to as “gifts of the spirit” are not saved by their “faith” and by the display of these “gifts”…Then what evidence of faith DOES save - and the answer to that is , of course, given late in Matthew 25:31-46 - the famous “I was Hungry…I was thirsty…” passage…

It strikes me that so much of salvation is wrapped up in the small things…Maybe that is why St Thérèse de Lisieux’s “Little way of Love” is so powerful a devotion. It speaks to the fundamental truth of what all this means - and it is so simple…
Have faith - then act on that faith in little ways…for little ways have the greatest impact.

Peace
James

 

[agapedoulos]

Actually the phrase “to be sin” means “to become a sin offering”. This was His propitiation to the Father as an act of perfect obedience, an obedience we lacked.
Ok. Thanks for the definition.

As a sin offering. To propitiate the Father for our sins. Not as a legal requirement of s “Divine Justice”. Jesus was inocent and it is unjust to punish an innocent man for another’s crimes.
Ok. Yes He is the propitiation of our sins. “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” John 1:29 What do you mean not by “divine justice”? I know he was innocent but he gave his life for us (John 10:18). I am not familiar with the term “Divine Justice”

Not to take our sins but to provide perfect obedience, as a sin offering.
Not to take our sins? What then of John 1:29?

No, a faith in Christ Himself, and all His commands to us. We are to remain in Him to be saved, and the way to do this is by eating His Body and drinking His Blood, as He said. Thus we need a living Faith in Christ. A faith Working in Love, the love he asked of us. Obdience to the one who perfects our obedience.
Yes belief in Jesus and who said He was and what He said he was. The belief in Jesus and His Gospel saves according to 1 Cor 15:1-2 "Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you recieved and upon which you stand. By this Gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

And the good works keep our faith alive and growing

Give me your thoughts on Revelation 2: Ephesus had works yet Jesus said they could be blotted out.

True repentance of sin before death is the minimum. It is a work of the Holy Spirit which when assented to us by faith, maintains a flame of life in our faith.
According to who? Where is the minimum described? And yes I recognize I am a sinner, I have repented (and repent daily because I fail my abba) and believe… If I die today then, I am saved…right? I met the minimum right? And yes my goal is to keep the faith till death

The extra amount was over and above what they needed to perfectly cleanse their own soul and maintain their faith. Works have a secondary effect of cleansing ones soul (as well as keep faith alive).
Again, according to who? Where in the Bible does it say that our soul is cleansed by works…and how much of it? Please give me Biblical examples.

The minimum work is that which accompanies an assent of the will to follow the Holy Spirit’s promptings to repent of our works and obey Jesus.

Ok. So then every believer who trepents, willingly obeys and out of his/her love for God serves him and whose joy is to yield to the prompting of the Holy Spirit is saved…with at least minimum…then that describes every born-again Christian I know that declares they are saved.

peace
steve

 

[agapedoulos]

Yes - This is correct…And we can go around for a long time trying to “split hairs” over this matter.
But the bottom line is that if, in the normal course of a Christian life, we do not have works then we will not be saved…
So - we had better be examining what and how well we are doing in our actions and not just in our “beliefs” ( intellectual ascent).
Agree we must examine our selves to see if we are truly in the faith and works is a good place for examination.

To me - one of the best examples - from Jesus himself no less - covering this subject, and one that I don’t often see mentioned…in the rush to place James and Paul in perspective is this from Mt 21
21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
If these people, who displayed these things that are often referred to as “gifts of the spirit” are not saved by their “faith” and by the display of these “gifts”…Then what evidence of faith DOES save - and the answer to that is , of course, given late in Matthew 25:31-46 - the famous “I was Hungry…I was thirsty…” passage…
Yes. I often think about this passage and coupled with Revelation 2 I pray that I know closer daily that I love Him above all )1st commandment), so that I do not leave my first love…In this passage they casted out demonds…they performed works…Jesus declared “I never knew you”…lets focus on knowing Jesus and gowing closer to him , you must however believe before we can know Him. So lets pray that we all believe and grow more in love with Him. Works will come out of this love. No more splitting hairs.

It strikes me that so much of salvation is wrapped up in the small things…Maybe that is why St Thérèse de Lisieux’s “Little way of Love” is so powerful a devotion. It speaks to the fundamental truth of what all this means - and it is so simple…
Have faith - then act on that faith in little ways…for little ways have the greatest impact.

May God open doors and may the Holy Spirit leads us to good works He has in store for us to do. We were created after all for " good works".

Peace
James

 

[agapedoulos]

Yes, I haven’t looked closely at that passage in regard to this topic, but it seems that their first works became mixed with works emanating from their own desires.

Their sole desire should have been to please God through obedience. Failure requires repentance. And worship will move our wills toward obedience,when we realize all that we have been given by Him.

peace
steve

Steve, after reading so many of the comments I am can see that both Catholics and Christians are describing the same thing. We believe in worship and the love of God first (Faith: without it we can not know the father, love Him or please Him) and regarding works:“For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”-Ephesians 2:10
Both of us believe in the importance of faith and works. The difference is that non-catholics do not believe that our works cleanse our souls or merit our salvation (because scripture does not teach this). We read that salvation is a gift and praise God for His amazing love! I am amazed at his mercy and love, his kindness and amazing gift of salvation, this causes my soul to worship Him and I desire so much to serve Him (Romans 2:4 “Gods kindness leads us to repentance”) I don’t quite understand if you can love our Lord without acknowleging how richly He has blessed us by giving the gift of salvation (gift not based on our works…no one can boast). What greater kindnesss than that “while I was still a sinner Christ died for us” Romans 5:8, giving us salvation! I am trying to understand that.

Peace and love to you.

 

[Contarini]

As a thorough Catholic, I have always instinctively assumed salvation and damnation come down to weighing up what you do- i.e. that judgment is based entirely on our deeds.

Well, I don’t think that’s orthodox Catholicism.

It rules out forgiveness entirely, doesn’t it?

There are many Scriptures which support this: “He will reward each according to his deeds.” And the classic is the final judgment in Matthew 25, where whether you go to Heaven or Hell depends upon how you treat Christ in the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the sick, the imprisoned. Also, in the Matthew’s Sermon on the Mount, “It is not those who say ‘Lord, Lord’, but those who do the will of my Father.”

I suppose I address this question primarily to Protestants, and Catholics who are inclined to answer- what do you think is wrong with the doctrine of slavation by works?

It’s the Pelagian heresy.

All salvific or “meritorious” works are the result of God’s grace. That’s not Protestantism–it’s the teaching of the Council of Trent, not to mention Augustine.

Thus, one is not saved by one’s own works but by the grace of God. We cooperate with grace, and this cooperation is both necessary and meaningful, but we ascribe the value of our works to God and not to ourselves, because it is God who goes before us and works in us.

Also, as I said, there’s the small matter of forgiveness. God doesn’t weigh our good against our bad deeds–bad deeds of which we have repented are not counted at all, and even one unrepentant mortal sin is, according to Catholic teaching, enough to damn us.

And how can anyone say they are “saved” until they have faced final judgment?

That part is quite right, though we can have “moral certainty” of our present condition according to Catholic teaching, if I’m not mistaken.

Whether we are saved or not depends upon what we do- Jesus gave us the new Law- but our deeds are what merit either salvation or damnation.

That’s a pretty classic statement–of the Pelagian heresy

Edwin

 

[XianThinker]

Steve, after reading so many of the comments I am can see that both Catholics and Christians are describing the same thing. We believe in worship and the love of God first (Faith: without it we can not know the father, love Him or please Him) and regarding works:“For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”-Ephesians 2:10
Both of us believe in the importance of faith and works. The difference is that non-catholics do not believe that our works cleanse our souls or merit our salvation (because scripture does not teach this). We read that salvation is a gift and praise God for His amazing love! I am amazed at his mercy and love, his kindness and amazing gift of salvation, this causes my soul to worship Him and I desire so much to serve Him (Romans 2:4 “Gods kindness leads us to repentance”) I don’t quite understand if you can love our Lord without acknowleging how richly He has blessed us by giving the gift of salvation (gift not based on our works…no one can boast). What greater kindnesss than that “while I was still a sinner Christ died for us” Romans 5:8, giving us salvation! I am trying to understand that.

Peace and love to you.

I’m a Christian studying Catholicism and I think the beliefs are similar in that both faith and works are important. My understanding is that Catholics agree with Protestants in their belief that the initial salvation one receives is by faith and is completely unmerited. The difference is what happens when someone with faith later refuses to cooperate with God’s grace and submit to God’s will. If a person needs to love God and do God’s will (Matt 7:21-23) to remain in a state of grace, then works (acts of love) are evaluated by God and influence his decision.