Salvation by works vs Salvation by Grace alone

[rinnie]

IT is true that the Catholic Church inherited the concept of the place of the righteous dead from the Jews, as evidenced in the OT. It is also true that we can be cleansed of our sins by the shed blood of Chrsit on the cross. It is also true that there are two eternal destinies at the end of this life - heaven or hell.

Indeed, all purging happens by grace, through faith, and we access this faith through the sacraments.

I hope you misunderstood Father, or he mispoke himself, as this is wrong. He may no longer teach Purgatory, but the Catholic Church does.

No, purgatory is for those whose sins are already forgiven, and are heaven bound.

A distinction needs to be made between the forgiveness of sins, and the temporal punishments due to sin. For example, Jesus forgave the thief on the cross who died next to him, but still allowed him to suffer the temporal consequence of his sins. He hung on the cross until nightfall, when they broke his legs to hasten his death. Jesus could have taken the soul of the thief when He died, but He did not.

Being absolved (forgiven the eternal consequence of our sins) does not necessarilyl set aside the temporal consequences. For example, a person may be forgiven for murder, but will still have to do prison time.

So does your Father, it seems!

I am sure it is my own inability to process all he was telling me at the time.

He said that Purgatory is more of a process per say. He said that when we die we are either going to heaven or hell. The decision is made.

I always felt as a Child that purgatory was a place. Father said no it is a state. So what I am trying to say I thought that Purgatory was a place that we were sent, kinda like what you said a prison term.

But it seems that now it is not exactly that horrible prison time as It thought. It seems to me that Purgatory is a process. I guess alot like confession when you really look at it.

Simply because confession is really being sorry for the sins you have done and in your heart really know you are trying to rid yourself of them, and knowing you cannot fail w.o Gods help.

That is where I think purgatory really is now, instead of a horrible suffereing place, it is more of a loving suffering state. Because prison is a place where you are put with others, some are good some are evil.

But purgatory you are deemed good in the eyes of God. You are almost ready to be welcomed into eternal bliss with him, but you must kind of like go back to confession again with God but while you are confessing your sins, this time you are also cleansed of them once and for all. Instead of a regular confession its a walk through your sins with God and him showng you what the sins have done to others you came in contact with in your life also.

Its almost like you last final regret, while I believe it is hard and not a fun place to be, lets face it who wants to see what they have done wrong. But yout gift in purgatoy is not the suffering you are doing as much as having God there to show you and Love you in spite of it.

Which is kind of like after confession in this world having the Grace of God to help rid you of that sin, but this time no only do you have his grace, you have HIM really letting you dig deep into your own soul, and then comming out the person he knows you can be and will become.

Because Father said it is more of a Process and State. But he said that we no longer have to have Purgatory to go to heaven. That is where the teaching’s I believe are not like they were in the O.T. In the O.T its not that the teaching’s changed but Jesus took away our sin.

Do you understand what I am saying? Purgatory is no longer a need to enter heaven. But before that was not an option, because we had sin, But Jesus took that away. That is where I am saying the Sacraments come in. We did not have that option in the O.T.

So Purgatory is no longer a teaching of the Church as in respects to it being necessary to enter heaven. Father said because of the Sacraments we no longer have to believe that we must enter into the state of Purgatory it can be bypassed as they say.

But then again very few can bypass it, but it is made possible by the Sacrament of Confession.

By the way the process that Father talking about and the process I described is what I think the process is like, Not the teaching of the Church

But again when I said Purgatory is no longer a teaching of the Church that must be believed, I mean it is not necessary to achieve heaven. Before I believe that in the O.T there was no option because of Orginal sin.

But anyway I always thought it was a PLACE, like heaven and hell. But it is not a place, its a state or process. And I always thought it could go either way. But that I was also wrong on. If at your death its hell, its hell

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I think you will indeed need to go into this more deeply with father…For if, as he says, the Church no longer teaches “Purgatory” then why is the word used four time in the Catechism including this reference:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

See HERE for a search result showing the four references to Purgatory.

Peace
James

Where I have to be corrected here where I believe I explained to Guan is it is no longer a teaching that has to be believed to reach heaven. Before the Early Fathers of the Church taught that we all had to have this final cleansing.

But Father said now by the forgiveness of sins and Sacraments it is not always necessary. We can more or less have that final cleansing here on earth. But not in the O.T. They did not have the Sacraments. That is what I was trying to say.

But the big difference that I am confused on is like I said, I always thought of it as a Place, he said it is more of a process we undergo. But All do not have to under go this. That is where the teachings I believed have changed because of Jesus’ death on the cross. IF I understood him correctly in the O.T that was not a option, you had to enter into the process. But I do believe he did say it was never taught as a place.

 

[rinnie]

IT is true that the Catholic Church inherited the concept of the place of the righteous dead from the Jews, as evidenced in the OT. It is also true that we can be cleansed of our sins by the shed blood of Chrsit on the cross. It is also true that there are two eternal destinies at the end of this life - heaven or hell.

Indeed, all purging happens by grace, through faith, and we access this faith through the sacraments.

I hope you misunderstood Father, or he mispoke himself, as this is wrong. He may no longer teach Purgatory, but the Catholic Church does.

No, purgatory is for those whose sins are already forgiven, and are heaven bound.

A distinction needs to be made between the forgiveness of sins, and the temporal punishments due to sin. For example, Jesus forgave the thief on the cross who died next to him, but still allowed him to suffer the temporal consequence of his sins. He hung on the cross until nightfall, when they broke his legs to hasten his death. Jesus could have taken the soul of the thief when He died, but He did not.

Being absolved (forgiven the eternal consequence of our sins) does not necessarilyl set aside the temporal consequences. For example, a person may be forgiven for murder, but will still have to do prison time.

So does your Father, it seems!

The good thief on the cross was how I got on the subject of Purgatory. I asked Father if the Good Thief went to Purgatory, He said no. He was forgiven right there and was going to heaven, but you are correct his suffering on the cross was still what we could say was his purgatory time. It is different for everyone.

I always thought that after his death the good thief would still have to go to Purgatory. But Father said No, After his death he would enter heaven, because by the death of Jesus it was made possible.

 

[JRKH]

Where I have to be corrected here where I believe I explained to Guan is it is no longer a teaching that has to be believed to reach heaven. Before the Early Fathers of the Church taught that we all had to have this final cleansing.

But Father said now by the forgiveness of sins and Sacraments it is not always necessary. We can more or less have that final cleansing here on earth. But not in the O.T. They did not have the Sacraments. That is what I was trying to say.

But the big difference that I am confused on is like I said, I always thought of it as a Place, he said it is more of a process we undergo. But All do not have to under go this. That is where the teachings I believed have changed because of Jesus’ death on the cross. IF I understood him correctly in the O.T that was not a option, you had to enter into the process. But I do believe he did say it was never taught as a place.

In regards the bolded section…Try not to get too hung up on this.
The process is Purgation…Since it isn’t done in heaven or hell, the church gave the name “prugatory” to the state (condition or place) where the prugation takes place.
Personally I don’t care for saying that it is a “state” because that (to me) implies something static whereas purgation is a process.
As an example, when you are in the state of dirty, you undergo a process of bathing which is most commonly done in a bath-room…
So there is a state (dirty or impure) A process (bathing or purgation) and a place (bath-atory or purg-atory)

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

In regards the bolded section…Try not to get too hung up on this.
The process is Purgation…Since it isn’t done in heaven or hell, the church gave the name “prugatory” to the state (condition or place) where the prugation takes place.
Personally I don’t care for saying that it is a “state” because that (to me) implies something static whereas purgation is a process.
As an example, when you are in the state of dirty, you undergo a process of bathing which is most commonly done in a bath-room…
So there is a state (dirty or impure) A process (bathing or purgation) and a place (bath-atory or purg-atory)

Peace
James

I agree! But even if you put it as a place in your mind, or state it does come down to the same thing.

But what I guess I was confused on also is that People say that we no longer believe in Purgatory. But its not that at all. We do not have to believe in Purgatory to gain entry into heaven. We can enter into a state of heaven right after death. But as we are taught to always pray for our brothers and sisters who still may be still getting a bath I was taught to never take for granted that these prayers may not be needed.

But on the same side of the coin we can believe that they went straight to heaven also. That is where I believe the teaching is different from the Early Fathers.

But my motta Pray for them, Better safe then sorry