Salvation by works vs Salvation by Grace alone

[guanophore]

I agree very much that opinion is just that. But how do you account for so much misconception among Catholics? I believed as much when I was Catholic. It was always about being good enough.

I grew up the same way.

I have accounted for it myself because of a home life that did not teach the Faith that was claimed. I was also a victim of poor catechesis. But the main and most influential factor was myself. I failed to take it upon myself to learn my faith when I came of age. Instead of looking into the Teachings of the Church to answer what appeared to me to be contradictions between the Church and the Bible, I just went on my warped perceptions, and left the Church.

 But even when I was catholic there was never a desire to go deeper in faith. You didn’t read the bible or even care what it said. You just relied on what the priest told you to do. I was never aware there was a deeper expression of faith. My whole family and everyone we knew pretty much was catholic. How we lived was the norm and that’s how I see a fair amount of Catholics living today. You are right there is an even greater number who don’t even care about being Catholic. I do find it interesting though they consider themselves to be good Catholics.

Yes, this parallels my expereince as well.

One thing I have learned here on CAF is that these people, who don’t know their faith, and reject the Apostolic Teachings, even get offended when they are confronted with what it means to be a “good Catholic”. This year, I was even told I am a “rad trad” (radical traditionalist) because I accept the Teachings of the Church. I don’t think of myself that way (whatever it means), but just a run of the mill layperson who has embraced the Apostolic Faith.

Here is the exception for Catholics in my opinion. Not the norm.

Well, have you considered that what is now the social “exception” actually represents the Early Church more perfectly?

 

[jericho777]

Second, the Church has gone through a period of poor teaching to our youth. This is a complicated issue that stemmed from the time of the second Vatican Council and, frankly, I think that too many bishops, teachers, religious, and laypeople, tried to change too much to quickly and without a good focus. This was not the fault of the council itself, so much as it was the fault of those who tried to impose their own take on what the council said.
One of the worst things was that, in the confusion, the very basic Catechesis of our young suffered. My understanding was that there was some confusion as to whether the “Baltimore Catechism” was still to be used so many stopped using it to teach our little ones.

We could go on but it would really need a thread all to itself…I too was one of those who didn’t understand and fell away…only to find my way back many years later…

I think that this is both true and false. I don’t believe that Catholics (at least those I knew) did not care what the bible said, after all we heard it read every day/week at mass. I do agree that we relied on what our pastor told us. But I think that this is also true in the protestant world, that you rely on your pastor, though perhaps to a lesser extent.

As to being aware of a deeper expression of faith, I can only speak for myself and my family, but I was always aware that there was more. My parents and grand-parents were very devout. I had a great-great Uncle who was a Franciscan priest and I knew him in his last years - a very holy man. My God-father (also my uncle) had started seminary but dropped out, married and raised 8 children and was a big factor in my return to the faith.
Yes - I knew many who were “nominal Catholics” but my personal experience, for the most part, was one of devotion and contact with good religious people.

Well I think that we both understand about the “sheep and the goats” or the “weeds growing in with the wheat”. I think we will also both agree that the path is a narrow gate and that not all who try will enter.
But there is another factor that we should consider here. One that is often brought up here at CAF. That is that we shouold not judge merely by appearance. It’s sometimes hard to know the spiritual state of another. Jesus specifically told us not to do things openly and in public, that we might be rewarded in public. Rather we are to do thing quietly. So some (certainly not all) of the people you see that might seem to be just nominal catholics, might in truth be performing many private devotions, constatn prayer and works of charity that are unseen.

Well I will agree that this is an exeptional site with many good and sincere Christians of all stripes.
What constitutes a “Norm” - I don’t know. There are so many factors involved…I’m not sure that I could even define what the “norm” might be…
Among practicing Catholics is it the norm to:

• Have faith? Certainly. Certainly among those who come to mass weekly.
• To pray? Again I’d have to say that probably most practicing Catholics pray daily…maybe not a lot or a long time, but they do pray.
• Believe in Batism? - Yup
• To believe in the forgiveness of sin? Yes
• To believe in doing good works? Yes
• To Desire to Please God? Yes

So - How do you think that my view of “Norm” among Catholics stacks up agianst your “norm”?

Peace
James

Greetings James

Since Catholics are not bible readers per se and get their information from the priests it would seem incumbent upon them to accurately reflect actual church teaching and reeducate the masses.

Maybe I should have said Catholics don’t see the relevance of reading the bible. Does that make more sense?
I always thought we were religious and doing what was required by the church as well as the other Catholics we knew. We were not slackers in any way. I think there is a larger movement of nominal Catholics today than when we grew up.

It’s not a judgment thing it’s more of an awareness of their lack of concern for faith. It’s how much they don’t see the need for a Christ centered life.

I think your view of Catholic norms are how I grew up.

 

[jericho777]

Where did you ever get a kockamamie idea like that? About perception, Jesus said that if your eye (perception) is sound (correct):

Luke 11:34-36
If your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light; but if it is not healthy, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore consider whether the light in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, with no part of it in darkness, it will be as full of light as when a lamp gives you light with its rays."

People who have an unsound perception are full of darkness. I agree, their perception is their reality, and in their world, they are missing the gospel of grace.

However, people lacking light in their perception does not change the Truth for anyone but themselves.

How can you say “I don’t know what to believe?”. Surely you can trust that the revelation of God of Himself is trustworthy, can you not?

Rom 3:3-4
Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,

“So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.”

You will be judged by God, not by those who have not perceived the Truth.

I know what I believe personally about my faith. My point is you say what the church believes but I see what the vast numbers of Catholics profess as truth. There seems to be confusion where the truth lies among your members.

Yes, I think you are right. Have you ever considered that God has called you to reach out to such persons, to help them better understand and experience the Gospel of Grace?

Absolutely! I take my relationship with Jesus very seriously as well as the great commission. As the Lord leads I share the good news.

There has been a very poor catechesis in many areas. However, the Truth is not defined by those who depart from it.

If you can show me where the Church teaches these falsehoods, then you might have a case. If not, all you are doing is basing your decision on misinformation and misconduct borne of ignorance. It seems like a foundation of sand to me.

Again there is the reality that Catholics are not being taught what the church officially teaches. They have a false perception of what their faith teaches.

Please show me where the Church teaches this.

---

The Catholics I know will tell you this is what they were led to believe. Where the truth lies in this I do not know.
guanophore;7669375:

In that case, let us focus on the Truth, rather than those who are not walking in it. Bring out the catechism, and other Teaching documents of the church that show anywhere that we are saved based on our effort.

This is an heresy that was defeated in the early centuries by the Church (Pelagianism).

I am no expert on Catholic doctrine. This is just what I have observed from the conversations here and from those I have talked to.

 

[guanophore]

I know what I believe personally about my faith.

Yes, I read as much after I gave that reply. I should read everthing before replying.

My point is you say what the church believes but I see what the vast numbers of Catholics profess as truth. There seems to be confusion where the truth lies among your members.

This is certainly true, and has been the case since the beginning. It is clear from the NT that there were many confused disciples.

Absolutely! I take my relationship with Jesus very seriously as well as the great commission. As the Lord leads I share the good news.

Have you ever thought that you might be called to share your passion with Catholics?

Again there is the reality that Catholics are not being taught what the church officially teaches. They have a false perception of what their faith teaches.

some do, but not all.

Some of it has to do with individual Catholcs failing to take responsibility for learning and following their faith. I know that was the case with me.

The Catholics I know will tell you this is what they were led to believe. Where the truth lies in this I do not know.

I am sure that there is some responsibility for failure in both in both poor teaching, and poor students.

I am no expert on Catholic doctrine. This is just what I have observed from the conversations here and from those I have talked to.

Have you ever considered becoming an expert in Catholic doctrine?

 

[Madaglan]

Greetings James

Since Catholics are not bible readers per se and get their information from the priests it would seem incumbent upon them to accurately reflect actual church teaching and reeducate the masses.

Maybe I should have said Catholics don’t see the relevance of reading the bible. Does that make more sense?
I always thought we were religious and doing what was required by the church as well as the other Catholics we knew. We were not slackers in any way. I think there is a larger movement of nominal Catholics today than when we grew up.

It’s not a judgment thing it’s more of an awareness of their lack of concern for faith. It’s how much they don’t see the need for a Christ centered life.

I think your view of Catholic norms are how I grew up.

Today, many Catholics are influenced by the secular media and uncritically accept what is presented to them.

I was nominal Catholic for most of my life, and I think what helped develop in me a more Christ centered life was a discovery of Christian Tradition.

 

[jericho777]

Yes, I read as much after I gave that reply. I should read everthing before replying.

This is certainly true, and has been the case since the beginning. It is clear from the NT that there were many confused disciples.

Have you ever thought that you might be called to share your passion with Catholics?

some do, but not all.

Some of it has to do with individual Catholcs failing to take responsibility for learning and following their faith. I know that was the case with me.

I am sure that there is some responsibility for failure in both in both poor teaching, and poor students.

Have you ever considered becoming an expert in Catholic doctrine?

You make a good point I’m sure it’s both poor teaching and poor students.

As I have said before whomever the Lord leads me to share the gospel with I share. As far as becoming an expert on Catholicism my plate is pretty full with aged parents a wife and three sons plus a JW I have been dialoging with for 3-4 years now. But I’m always willing and learning little bits here and there. Just like on this site.

 

[dje101]

I’m just going to throw in my two cents. Please, someone correct me if I’m wrong.

I had a very lengthy discussion with someone on another thread about this same topic.

This is the way that I’ve come to think of it:

Only by faith can you enter into God’s Grace; nothing you do can get you into Heaven because Christ already made the ultimate sacrifice. BUT, in order to stay in that grace, there is a protocol, if you will, of how to behave.

What I’ve noticed is that most Protestant teachers like to say that only by faith are we saved. But my question is this: didn’t Christ say a WHOLE lot more than just “believe”? I mean, seriously, Matthew is a long book, am I right? So if Christ’s only commandment was “believe and your saved”, then what was the point of the rest of the gospels?

Yes, we are saved by faith alone, but in that faith we are 1) telling God that we acknowledge what Christ has done and therefore 2) submit our lives to the teachings of Christ and Almighty God (i.e., works). Were Christ’s teachings any different than God’s? No, because Christ IS God and cannot contradict himself.

Think of it like this: We apply for a job, but cannot get the job because we do not have the necessary qualifications. Jesus comes along and submits the resume with all of the necessary qualifications and gets the job, then passes the benefits and work along to us. Though Christ allowed us to receive the benefits and some responsibility of the office, there is still a set of rules that we have to follow to stay in the office. That is, he has granted us salvation but also given us responsibility to pass on the belief of Christ and to help others. In believing in Chris and what He has done for us, we are not to neglect all of the other verses where Christ commands us to help others.

In conclusion, we cannot do a single work that will allow us to receive God’s grace and get into Heaven, but once we HAVE received that grace because of faith, there are rules to MAINTAIN that grace.

Does sound about right, everyone?

 

[jericho777]

Today, many Catholics are influenced by the secular media and uncritically accept what is presented to them.

I was nominal Catholic for most of my life, and I think what helped develop in me a more Christ centered life was a discovery of Christian Tradition.

Then how did you end up Eastern Orthodox and not Catholic?

 

[Madaglan]

Then how did you end up Eastern Orthodox and not Catholic?

Don’t know what exactly you mean by this question. Could you explain more?

 

[JRKH]

I’m just going to throw in my two cents. Please, someone correct me if I’m wrong.

I had a very lengthy discussion with someone on another thread about this same topic.

This is the way that I’ve come to think of it:

Only by faith can you enter into God’s Grace; nothing you do can get you into Heaven because Christ already made the ultimate sacrifice. BUT, in order to stay in that grace, there is a protocol, if you will, of how to behave.

What I’ve noticed is that most Protestant teachers like to say that only by faith are we saved. But my question is this: didn’t Christ say a WHOLE lot more than just “believe”? I mean, seriously, Matthew is a long book, am I right? So if Christ’s only commandment was “believe and your saved”, then what was the point of the rest of the gospels?

Yes, we are saved by faith alone, but in that faith we are 1) telling God that we acknowledge what Christ has done and therefore 2) submit our lives to the teachings of Christ and Almighty God (i.e., works). Were Christ’s teachings any different than God’s? No, because Christ IS God and cannot contradict himself.

Think of it like this: We apply for a job, but cannot get the job because we do not have the necessary qualifications. Jesus comes along and submits the resume with all of the necessary qualifications and gets the job, then passes the benefits and work along to us. Though Christ allowed us to receive the benefits and some responsibility of the office, there is still a set of rules that we have to follow to stay in the office. That is, he has granted us salvation but also given us responsibility to pass on the belief of Christ and to help others. In believing in Chris and what He has done for us, we are not to neglect all of the other verses where Christ commands us to help others.

In conclusion, we cannot do a single work that will allow us to receive God’s grace and get into Heaven, but once we HAVE received that grace because of faith, there are rules to MAINTAIN that grace.

Does sound about right, everyone?

Sounds about right. The big problem I see is that while protestants very rightly point out the need for faith, some want to stop there. Then when Catholics, already acknowledging the need for faith, begin to talk about other things that need done (and based in faith) these “Faith alone” types start harping about our supposed “works rightiousness” or whatever…
Yet if you pin them down on what the bible has to say about works, they will finally agree that you need to do things (works of charity etc), but will quickly point out that these must come from faith to which we Catholics can readily shout Amen.

The whole faith vs works argument between Catholic and Protestant theology is mostly smoke and mirrors and misinformation.

Peace
James

 

[Guitarjesus7]

I’ve always understood pauls talk about “works” and “the law” to be talking about the law of Moses, not works in general. Because if god is truely just and merciful, he wouldn’t send someone to hell for simply not being as religious as they should be, while in the meantime they were showing acts of love, and charity to everyone else. (but I’m not saying faith isnt involved in salvation either)

 

[JRKH]

I’ve always understood pauls talk about “works” and “the law” to be talking about the law of Moses, not works in general. Because if god is truely just and merciful, he wouldn’t send someone to hell for simply not being as religious as they should be, while in the meantime they were showing acts of love, and charity to everyone else. (but I’m not saying faith isnt involved in salvation either)

Right.
And if one looks at what Jesus Preached, the vast majority had to do with two things. Dispostion (attitude and thought) and Action (works).

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

Don’t know what exactly you mean by this question. Could you explain more?

You said your discovery of Christian Tradition led you to the EO why not back to the Catholic church?

 

[rinnie]

What really is the actual difference?

In the Southern Baptist Church, I was taught that salvation by works meant being nice to people, giving money to charity, etc. Of course, (I think) most Christians know that that is not enough. Belief in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice is the core of Christianity. So, I was told that there are 2 schools of thought: Salvation by professing belief in Jesus Christ or believing oneself saved b/c you are a nice person, etc.

But the Catholic Church’s salvation by works does not mean that- right? It means Believing in Jesus, receiving communion, and they other sacraments- right? In other words, to me, it means believing in Jesus and then striving to be a better Christian every God-granted day you live (by doing things such as receiving communion).

So, is the salvation by works touted by the Baptist church just “spin” on the actual meaning of it through the Catholic church? And, why? I mean, accepting God’s grace is the beginning of a Christian life- and you can fall from it too (right?). If a person professes faith in Jesus and then lives as a cruel, horrible person who never again prays, then is that person “saved by grace alone?” I mean, really…really? Hard to believe that.

I am having alot of difficulty understanding and dealing with all the, what seem to be, semantics that divide Christians. And this discussion about means of salvation has been in my head… hope it is understandable.

Bottom line nothing is possible without the Grace of God!! It all begins with the grace from God. No Salvation comes from Faith alone. No faith comes without Grace from God first. It all comes from Gods grace. Then from Grace comes faith, and then from faith comes works. IT is a package deal. Grace then faith then works!! Kinda simple really!

But then you can not accept that grace given to you, then it becomes dead, and you lose it. Or you can accept it, and use it, (good works) and then you gain more and more. The more good you do, the more Grace God gives you to do even more. Thats called using the good Grace given to you from God. That how we gain salvation. By saying Yes to God!!

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;7676983]Bottom line nothing is possible without the Grace of God!! It all begins with the grace from God. No Salvation comes from Faith alone. No faith comes without Grace from God first. It all comes from Gods grace. Then from Grace comes faith, and then from faith comes works. IT is a package deal. Grace then faith then works!! Kinda simple really!

Hi rinnie,
First, I don’t think anyone who believes faith alone would deny that we come by faith because of grace. Beyond that, I think you’ve nailed what Lutheransim teaches in a nutshell.

But then you can not accept that grace given to you, then it becomes dead, and you lose it. Or you can accept it, and use it, (good works) and then you gain more and more. The more good you do, the more Grace God gives you to do even more. Thats called using the good Grace given to you from God. That how we gain salvation. By saying Yes to God!!

Well, sort of. Rinnie, do you believe that even our growth in grace is first and foremost because of the strengthening of the Holy Spirit through word and sacrament? Or in other words, because of grace?

Jon

 

[Madaglan]

You said your discovery of Christian Tradition led you to the EO why not back to the Catholic church?

The Christian Tradition helped me better appreciate Catholicism, but I ultimately found certain Catholic teachings (e.g. Purgatory) as not grounded in the Christian Tradition.

 

[pablope]

The Christian Tradition helped me better appreciate Catholicism, but I ultimately found certain Catholic teachings (e.g. Purgatory) as not grounded in the Christian Tradition.

I think the concept of purgatory came from our Jewish roots. Just curious as to why you think it is not grounded in Tradition?

 

[guanophore]

Right.
And if one looks at what Jesus Preached, the vast majority had to do with two things. Dispostion (attitude and thought) and Action (works).

Peace
James

And this is one of the main reasons that dispensationalism had to be designed. One must find a way to determine that all these teachings of Jesus are not related to salvation. Hence, He preached them to the Jews, who, if they had accepted them, would have ushered in the earthly Kingdom at once. But, since they refused to receive their saviour, they were blinded, and the gospel was preached to the Gentiles. But Paul’s gospel is not the same as Jesus’ gospel, because Paul was sent to the Gentiles, and Jesus was preaching to the circumcised.

I was shocked when I was taught here on CAF by Reformed Christians that these “vast majority” of Jesus teachings had nothing to do with salvation for Gentiles.

 

[JRKH]

And this is one of the main reasons that dispensationalism had to be designed. One must find a way to determine that all these teachings of Jesus are not related to salvation. Hence, He preached them to the Jews, who, if they had accepted them, would have ushered in the earthly Kingdom at once. But, since they refused to receive their saviour, they were blinded, and the gospel was preached to the Gentiles. But Paul’s gospel is not the same as Jesus’ gospel, because Paul was sent to the Gentiles, and Jesus was preaching to the circumcised.

I was shocked when I was taught here on CAF by Reformed Christians that these “vast majority” of Jesus teachings had nothing to do with salvation for Gentiles.

:dts::doh2::banghead:

I don’t know much about dispensationalism, but I am repeatedly astounded by what I here coming from the mouths of some who claim to be “Sola Scripturists”.

Just the other day I was visited by a JW who, when I confronted him over John 1 (the word was God…) tried to say that that passage wasn’t important…:doh2:
As you can imagine, his was a short visit.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie,
First, I don’t think anyone who believes faith alone would deny that we come by faith because of grace. Beyond that, I think you’ve nailed what Lutheransim teaches in a nutshell.

Well, sort of. Rinnie, do you believe that even our growth in grace is first and foremost because of the strengthening of the Holy Spirit through word and sacrament? Or in other words, because of grace?

Jon

Oh Yes Jon, I believe that for us (RC) we receive that grace within days of our birth. Baptism. For some it takes a little longer. But when we are Baptised it is the beginning of the Holy Spirit the seed of Light and life that is planted into us.

Then like for myself for example the seed was watered and grew over the next 13 years of my life, Catholic school, The Holy Eucharist, Confession, then Confirmation.

THen it seems like I took some time off. I graduated, always went to church on Sunday, but took for granted what I was given. Thats when I think my Grace I was given kinda took a spring break lets say

Then when I hit 19 I got married in the Church and received the Sacrament of marriage, then when my husband studied the faith, it was like when you have kids and you live out your own childhood all over again. He asked alot of questions and I forgot alot of the answers I was like ask my Dad he explains it better.

Then we had kids, I kNEW they had to know the Lord, then as they became older I learned I better practice what I preach. ITs not what I preached they learned, its what I practiced

Then actually just yesterday believe it or not, I was asked how did you 2 make it. Because so so many in my age group (40’s) didn’t seem to make it. I said when we got married we invested in good stock!

He said what kind of stock. I said well, I didn’t know it at the time, but one thing I did right in my life was no matter how tired I was, or broke, or angry, or happy or sad etc I never missed Church on Sunday. Neither of us did.

So I found out that while I may have neglected my faith as far as to continue my Education in my faith, The Holy Spirit keep feeding it on those Sundays by the power of the HS through the Eucharist.

It was that power that was so strong from God that carried us through all of the trouble that we had ahead of us. I tell my daughter if there is one thing that you do right in your married life, Go to Church together. Even when you do not realize it, you are investing in your future.

As usual when I thought many of those (wasted Sundays) I was fulfilling my obligation to God, little did I know, he was giving me back a million times more Grace that I would need to continue my struggle in life. Isn’t that just like God, when you think you are doing something for him, he gives you the gifts!

If I could zap people and have magic to give them ONE thing in this world, it would not be money, power, good looks, it would be the EUCHARIST. The living Christ. Because money can be lost, power, good looks etc. But the Grace of Christ, that the Stock that will never fall!!