Salvation by works vs Salvation by Grace alone

[guanophore]

Many, if not all, Protestants do teach Salvation by Grace ALONE. Didn’t Martin Luther, the first Protestant, say that the book of James is an “Epistle of Straw” because it completely contradicted his new belief and teaching in Salvation by Grace ALONE?

Yes, Luther did do that. But clearly, as Jon has shown, this was not the only thing he said about works.

We Catholics have always believed and taught Salvation by Grace through our Works as explained in the New Testament, especially the book of Romans and the book of James.

I think it is essential, especially when talking with our separated brethren, that we emphasize that the works are HIs, not “ours”.

Titus 3:3-5
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

They are His works, created in Him, for us to do.

 

[JonNC]

Many, if not all, Protestants do teach Salvation by Grace ALONE. Didn’t Martin Luther, the first Protestant, say that the book of James is an “Epistle of Straw” because it completely contradicted his new belief and teaching in Salvation by Grace ALONE?

Well, first, Luther’s complaints about the Epistle of James had much more to do with the historic question of its authorship, but that said, the quote you provide is a partial one - he said it was an Epistle of straw compared to others, which spoke more strongly of Gospel, while James speaks more of Law, a point Luther praises about James. I think it is a mischaracterization to claim that James “completely contradicted” Luther’s view of salvation.

I don’t believe there is a disagreement between Lutherans and Catholics on the point that salvation is not possible without Grace.

Jon

 

[JRKH]

Guano and James,
I think there are two dangers that we face regarding works. One is the danger of believing that we, somehow can earn justification through our own efforts, or that faith is a competition - “see? I do more works that he does”.
The second danger is that of “cheap grace”, the belief that God did it all and I have no requirement to do anything.

Jon,
As always, spot on…
Getting into heaven is not compared to a narrow road, the eye of a needle, or the narrow gate for nothing…

Your comment about “competition” is an interesting one.
It also fits sort of with another falicious idea of “Scorekeeping”, - - - If I do more “good things” than “bad things” I’ll get into heaven…

Personally I find the "cheap grace’ viewpoint to be the most dangerous of the lot based on what Jesus has to say in Mt 721-29 and Mt 25:31-46.
In keeping with the sense of “doing the Fathers will” (even if one doesn’t know they are) gives a better chance of salvation than committign the sin of presumption.

I occasionally reference Luther’s preface to Galations 5:6 in these discussions, due to his use of the phrase: “Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides”
He says:
(Snip)
Jon
Amen to this…insincerity will be laid bare at Judgement.

Peace
James

 

[jbelokur]

the quote you provide is a partial one - he said it was an Epistle of straw compared to others, which spoke more strongly of Gospel,

Jon

I still have a big beef with this statement calling any book which for nearly 1100 years had been accepted by the Church as part of the cannon and inspired Scripture as an epistle of straw, even if it is followed by compared to others. And this would be sugar coating the fact that he removed it from his original translation along with Revelation and Hebrews…not to mention the seven books of the Old Testament Cannon he scrubbed out as well.

j

 

[JeanMichel]

Jon,
As always, spot on…
Getting into heaven is not compared to a narrow road, the eye of a needle, or the narrow gate for nothing…

Your comment about “competition” is an interesting one.
It also fits sort of with another falicious idea of “Scorekeeping”, - - - If I do more “good things” than “bad things” I’ll get into heaven…

Personally I find the "cheap grace’ viewpoint to be the most dangerous of the lot based on what Jesus has to say in Mt 721-29 and Mt 25:31-46.
In keeping with the sense of “doing the Fathers will” (even if one doesn’t know they are) gives a better chance of salvation than committign the sin of presumption.

I occasionally reference Luther’s preface to Galations 5:6 in these discussions, due to his use of the phrase: “Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides”
He says:
(Snip)
Jon

Amen to this…insincerity will be laid bare at Judgement.

Peace
James

I think we may be confusing a few things. Salvation is by Grace, but the Judgement will focus on works. All will be judged and compensated based upon those works whether they be good or bad. Of the ten virgins only five were prepared with enough oil. Our faith leads us to good works and our humility should keep us on the path toward emulating the example of the Saints and the Savior.

 

[JonNC]

I still have a big beef with this statement calling any book which for nearly 1100 years had been accepted by the Church as part of the cannon and inspired Scripture as an epistle of straw, even if it is followed by compared to others. And this would be sugar coating the fact that he removed it from his original translation along with Revelation and Hebrews…not to mention the seven books of the Old Testament Cannon he scrubbed out as well.

j

Hi j,
The fact is that in Luther’s translation, there are 74 books. He, along with some help from others, translated and included all 73 bnooks of the typical western Bible, plus the Prayer of Manasses.

Luther’s opinion of James and the other Antilegomena are not in a vacuum. His view was held by many throughout history. Lutherans have continued to believe, as Luther did, that the disputed books of the NT are part of the canon. As for the D-C’s, the dispute regarding them also spans the history of the Church, all the way up to and including within the Council of Trent.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

Regarding Pauls writings…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[guanophore]

I still have a big beef with this statement calling any book which for nearly 1100 years had been accepted by the Church as part of the cannon and inspired Scripture as an epistle of straw, even if it is followed by compared to others. And this would be sugar coating the fact that he removed it from his original translation along with Revelation and Hebrews…not to mention the seven books of the Old Testament Cannon he scrubbed out as well.

j

Don’t be too hard on Luther. He just has a tendency to express himself bluntly.

  “I maintain that some Jew wrote it (the Book of James) who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any”.

“Jews and papists are ungodly wretches; they are two stockings made of one piece of cloth”

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words “I baptize thee in the name of Abraham””

“We are at fault for not slaying them (the Jews)”

“He who hears this name (God) from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away”

– Martin Luther

One must understand that Luther’s attitude toward the epistle of James only stems from his belief that it was written by a Jew. Once you see how serious his anti-semitism is, it makes sense he would think it was not worthy to be in the canon.

Now, more pertaining to the thread topic, here is another quote from Luther:

“He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved”

 

[JonNC]

Don’t be too hard on Luther. He just has a tendency to express himself bluntly.

  “I maintain that some Jew wrote it (the Book of James) who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any”.

“Jews and papists are ungodly wretches; they are two stockings made of one piece of cloth”

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words “I baptize thee in the name of Abraham””

“We are at fault for not slaying them (the Jews)”

“He who hears this name (God) from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away”

– Martin Luther

One must understand that Luther’s attitude toward the epistle of James only stems from his belief that it was written by a Jew. Once you see how serious his anti-semitism is, it makes sense he would think it was not worthy to be in the canon.

Now, more pertaining to the thread topic, here is another quote from Luther:

“He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved”

Well, guano, then he would consider all the books not worthy. In his less bombastic moments he praises James for its dedication to law, without relying on the teachings of man.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Well, guano, then he would consider all the books not worthy. In his less bombastic moments he praises James for its dedication to law, without relying on the teachings of man.

Jon

You are right, of course. One of the difficulties I have with Luther’s writings, many of which contain valid complaints, is the “bombastic moments”. At times he seems to suffer from some sort of mental illness, or maybe several different types of afflictions, scrupulosity not the least.

He really did seem to genuinely experience a deliverance when he finally understood the nature of grace.

I think he would be very pleased to read the Joint Declaration.

 

[JonNC]

=guanophore;7635222]You are right, of course. One of the difficulties I have with Luther’s writings, many of which contain valid complaints, is the “bombastic moments”. At times he seems to suffer from some sort of mental illness, or maybe several different types of afflictions, scrupulosity not the least.

Perhaps.

He really did seem to genuinely experience a deliverance when he finally understood the nature of grace.

I think he would be very pleased to read the Joint Declaration.

I agree on both.

Jon

 

[jericho777]

Saving grace is always together with faith, and the works that they produce in a person.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Many of our separated brethren stop reading here at v. 9, and lose sight of the fact that living the good works He has prepared before hand for us is to be our way of life. Thus, saving grace is ALWAYS accompanied by the good works it produces.

Well to my separated brethren I agree we should look at the whole of Eph 2:8-10. Vs. 8 is saying salvation is the gift of God by His grace through faith and not based on our actions. Vs. 9 it’s not by our good either so that we can’t say we deserve it. Now for vs. 10 God created us the way we are. Formed in Jesus to take advantage of the abilities He has put in us to do His good works as a way of life. As you see our salvation is not based in any matter shape or form on works. It is only by grace through faith that saves. To look at ones salvation based on their works no matter good they think they are, is not relying on the gift of God alone. The purpose of our works is to bring glory Him and reveal His workmanship before the world and nothing else.

His purpose is to save us based on who He is and according His sovereign will. Our purpose is to be His craftsmanship bringing Him glory by our way of life. Ask yourself by whose will is it that you be saved in the first place? What do you bring to the salvation equation if it “is not your own doing”? Don’t you think He gives us the desire and ability to love and serve Him if we are His workmanship? Otherwise He is not a very good creator. Tell me anything that God has created that doesn’t fulfill His intended purpose?

I will leave you with this.
Is 46 9-11 I am YHWH, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

 

[guanophore]

To look at ones salvation based on their works no matter good they think they are, is not relying on the gift of God alone.

Do you believe the Catholic Church believes/teaches this?

 

[jericho777]

Do you believe the Catholic Church believes/teaches this?

It’s probably not the official teaching but in practice from the conversations here it is the focus and belief. People will say grace but are focusing on their works and being good enough. Here is a sample from a thread on this forum. Their primary focus is on works and what you do not grace and faith.

A response: John teaches, in his Apocalypse (aka Revelation 20:12-13), that*** we will be judged according to what we have done - not what we have believed.*** Jesus taught in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), that we are entrusted with something valuable (the Gospel), and are expected to multiply it in our lives, and not keep it hidden.

Question: Or do we just need to die in a state of grace? What role do works play in salvation?

Thanks!

Answer: There actually is a mathmatical formula for this. It is based on fractions of life lived, works that are both spiritual and corpreal. And, your situation may or may not require an adjustment depending on the century you lived in and who was holding the keys at the time.

Part of another response: “There will be those who died in a state of disgrace and forfeited heaven who, after entering a state of grace, had the opportunity and means to do a million and one good works and only did a million.”

These are all catholics talking amongst themselves. I see this notion perpetuated here all the time. I also get this from catholics I speak to in person. Aren’t they led to believe this from the church?

 

[JRKH]

Jericho777,
I see from the above exchange between you and guanophore the common disconnect between Ctholics and Protestants on
a) what the church teaches and how individuals express it, and
b) the interplay between faith, grace and works.

You say in your post:
It is only by grace through faith that saves. To look at ones salvation based on their works no matter good they think they are, is not relying on the gift of God alone. The purpose of our works is to bring glory Him and reveal His workmanship before the world and nothing else.
You may not realize it but you have just made a statement perfectly in line with Catholic teaching.
Our Salvation IS based on faith alone through grace alone, and is a free and undeserved gift from God thru Christ. The Catholic Church gladly affirms this and teaches same.
I undelined, “based on”, above because this is where the disconnet seems to start. As soon as someone (catholic) begins to talk about works as being a necessary part of salvation, the protestant wishes to impose the term “works based” which, of course, is erroneous since one is not Catholic without faith and our works stem from that faith. Therefore the works are built upon our faith base.

I have yet to meet and talk with a (properly taught) protestant that does not think that works are a necessary part of the Christian life and salvation. This is how we both understand James’ famous reference to fith without works being dead.
Likewise I have yet to meet and talk with a (properly taught) Catholic who does not think that faith is the essential underpinning of our Chrisitan life and salvation.
So what is the problem?

The problem I think is this. When we, Catholics or chrisitans in general talk amongst ourselves, we take certain things for granted. Like that the persons we are talking to/with already have faith. In most conversations, faith is a given. We ALREADY agree on the need for faith and grace. It is in the areas of demonstrating that faith that we sometimes have questions and/or disagreements and not on the prerequisite need for faith itself.
St James in His Epistle speaks of works as necessary to demonstrate that one has a saving faith. He does not speak of faith seperated from works or works seperated from faith, but of the two things being interconnected.
So, in like manner, we speak of works, not seperate from faith, but as ways of doing two things.

1. As a “self check” to see that our faith is not dead (James 2)
2. Two, as a means of receiving addtional grace, or a strengthening of grace, by actively promoting the Kingodm of God and Christian principles in our daily lives.

But in all of the above, and in all of our discussions here re: works, it is ALL predicated on the free gift of faith and grace.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Peace
James

 

[rikkk1958]

Why so much confusion about this?

Jesus taught us and asked, “What are the two most important commandments?”

Love thy God with all your being… then love your neighbor as yourself.

Faith and works have to to be practiced. If you want faith alone, then be a Monk and pray whole day for the rest of your life, but then, praying is “work” which is done by mental and physical effort of the mind. There is no guarantee that you will be saved if you believe but then pass the opportunity of helping your neighbors especially if you ignore the one who asks or hungry.

Jesus saved the sinner beside him during the crucifixion because He wants to do it with His own intention and decision. It was God who forgave and therefore it God who will judge and forgive. Nobody can assume he is saved. We need to obey what God instructed us to do, and Jesus taught us the 'Way"

Catholics, in obedience to Jesus teachings follow not only His Word but obedience to the chosen ones who passes on to those who were instructed how we must be in communion with His Body and Blood through His Church.

We always have to remember that His Church will always be divine.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Today, “Sundays” homily was very similar.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI on Paul and Faith etc

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[david_friol_1]

Pope Benedict XVI on these topics in Paul

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

The relationship between Paul and the Risen One became so deep as to induce him to maintain that Christ was no longer solely his life but also his very living, to the point that to be able to reach him death became a gain (cf. Phil 1: 21). This is not to say he despised life, but that he realized that for him at this point there was no other purpose in life and thus he had no other desire than to reach Christ as in an athletics competition to remain with him for ever. The Risen Christ had become the beginning and the end of his existence, the cause and the goal of his race. It was only his concern for the development in faith of those he had evangelized and his anxiety for all of the Churches he founded (cf. 2 Cor 11: 28) that induced him to slow down in his race towards his one Lord, to wait for his disciples so they might run with him towards the goal. Although from a perspective of moral integrity he had nothing to reproach himself in his former observance of the Law, once Christ had reached him he preferred not to make judgments on himself (cf. 1 Cor 4: 3-4). Instead he limited himself to resolving to press on, to make his own the One who had made him his own (cf. Phil 3: 12).

It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.

So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word “Law” meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses. The Torah, in the Pharisaic interpretation, that which Paul had studied and made his own, was a complex set of conduct codes that ranged from the ethical nucleus to observances of rites and worship and that essentially determined the identity of the just person. In particular, these included circumcision, observances concerning pure food and ritual purity in general, the rules regarding the observance of the Sabbath, etc. codes of conduct that also appear frequently in the debates between Jesus and his contemporaries. All of these observances that express a social, cultural and religious identity had become uniquely important in the time of Hellenistic culture, starting from the third century B.C. This culture which had become the universal culture of that time and was a seemingly rational culture; a polytheistic culture, seemingly tolerant constituted a strong pressure for cultural uniformity and thus threatened the identity of Israel, which was politically constrained to enter into this common identity of the Hellenistic culture. This resulted in the loss of its own identity, hence also the loss of the precious heritage of the faith of the Fathers, of the faith in the one God and in the promises of God.

 

[david_friol_1]

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God’s gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ’s Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God’s eyes.