Salvation by works vs Salvation by Grace alone

[david_friol_1]

Saint Paul (14):

The Doctrine of Justification: The Apostle’s Teaching on Faith and Works

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In the Catechesis last Wednesday I spoke of how man is justified before God. Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.

Thus, in our last Catechesis, we discovered two levels: that of the insignificance of our actions and of our deeds to achieve salvation, and that of “justification” through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit. The confusion of these two levels has caused more than a few misunderstandings in Christianity over the course of centuries. In this context it is important that St Paul, in the same Letter to the Galatians radically accentuates, on the one hand, the freely given nature of justification that is not dependent on our works, but which at the same time also emphasizes the relationship between faith and charity, between faith and works: “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5: 6). Consequently, there are on the one hand “works of the flesh”, which are “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry…” (Gal 5: 19-20): all works that are contrary to the faith; on the other, there is the action of the Holy Spirit who nourishes Christian life, inspiring “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Gal 5: 22-23). These are the fruits of the Spirit that blossom from faith.

Agape, love, is cited at the beginning of this list of virtues and self-control at the conclusion. In fact, the Spirit who is the Love of the Father and the Son pours out his first gift, agape, into our hearts (cf. Rm 5: 5); and to be fully expressed, agape, love, requires self-control. In my first Encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, I also treated of the love of the Father and the Son which reaches us and profoundly transforms our existence. Believers know that reciprocal love is embodied in the love of God and of Christ, through the Spirit. Let us return to the Letter to the Galatians. Here St Paul says that by bearing one another’s burdens believers are fulfilling the commandment of love (cf. Gal 6: 2).
Justified through the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in the love of Christ for neighbour, because it is on this criterion that we shall be judged at the end of our lives. In reality Paul only repeats what Jesus himself said and which is proposed to us anew by last Sunday’s Gospel, in the parable of the Last Judgment. In the First Letter to the Corinthians St Paul pours himself out in a famous eulogy of love. It is called the “hymn to love”: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal… Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way” (1 Cor 13: 1, 4-5). Christian love is particularly demanding because it springs from Christ’s total love for us: that love that claims us, welcomes us, embraces us, sustains us, to the point of tormenting us since it forces each one to no longer live for himself, closed into his own selfishness, but for him “who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Cor 5: 15). The love of Christ makes us, in him, that new creation (cf. 2 Cor 5: 17), which comes to belong to his Mystical Body that is the Church.

 

[david_friol_1]

Paul’s preaching, does not clash with faith that works through love; indeed, it demands that our faith itself be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit. Often there is seen an unfounded opposition between St Paul’s theology and that of St James, who writes in his Letter: “as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”(2: 26). In reality, while Paul is primarily concerned to show that faith in Christ is necessary and sufSeen in this perspective, the centrality of justification without works, the primary object of ficient, James accentuates the consequential relations between faith and works (cf. Jas 2: 24). Therefore, for both Paul and James, faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification in Christ. Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to “with fear and trembling. For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure… Do all things without grumbling or questioning… holding fast the word of life”, St Paul was to say further, to the Christians of Philippi (cf. Phil 2: 12-14, 16).

We are often induced to fall into the same misunderstandings that characterized the community of Corinth; those Christians thought that since they had been freely justified in Christ through faith, “they could do as they pleased”. And they believed and it often seems that today’s Christians also think this that it is permissible to create divisions in the Church, the Body of Christ, to celebrate the Eucharist without looking after the neediest of our brothers, to aspire to better charisms without being aware that each is a member of the other, and so forth. The consequences of a faith that is not manifested in love are disastrous, because it reduces itself to the arbitrariness and subjectivism that is most harmful to us and to our brothers. On the contrary, in following St Paul, we should gain a new awareness of the fact that precisely because we are justified in Christ, we no longer belong to ourselves but have become a temple of the Spirit and hence are called to glorify God in our body with the whole of our existence (cf. 1 Cor 6: 19). We would be underselling the inestimable value of justification, purchased at the high price of Christ’s Blood, if we were not to glorify him with our body. In fact, our worship at the same time reasonable and spiritual is exactly this, which is why St Paul exhorts us “to present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God” (Rm 12: 1). To what would a liturgy be reduced if addressed solely to the Lord without simultaneously becoming service to one’s brothers, a faith that would not express itself in charity? And the Apostle often places his communities in confrontation with the Last Judgment, on the occasion of which: “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor 5: 10; cf. also Rm 2: 16). And this idea of the Last Judgment must illumine us in our daily lives.

If the ethics that Paul proposes to believers do not deteriorate into forms of moralism and prove themselves timely for us, it is because, each time, they start from the personal and communal relationship with Christ, to be realized concretely in a life according to the Spirit. This is essential: the Christian ethic is not born from a system of commandments but is a consequence of our friendship with Christ. This friendship influences life; if it is true it incarnates and fulfils itself in love for neighbour. For this reason, any ethical decay is not limited to the individual sphere but it also weakens personal and communal faith from which it derives and on which it has a crucial effect. Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God’s “foolish” love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love.

 

[david_friol_1]

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Saint Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 8 November 2006

St Paul’s new outlook

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our previous Catechesis two weeks ago, I endeavoured to sketch the essential lines of the biography of the Apostle Paul. We saw how his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus literally revolutionized his life. Christ became his raison d’être and the profound motivation of all his apostolic work.

In his Letters, after the Name of God which appears more than 500 times, the name most frequently mentioned is Christ’s (380 times). Thus, it is important to realize what a deep effect Jesus Christ can have on a person’s life, hence, also on our own lives. Actually, the history of salvation culminates in Jesus Christ, and thus he is also the true discriminating point in the dialogue with other religions.

Looking at Paul, this is how we could formulate the basic question: how does a human being’s encounter with Christ occur? And of what does the relationship that stems from it consist? The answer given by Paul can be understood in two stages.

In the first place, Paul helps us to understand the absolutely basic and irreplaceable value of faith. This is what he wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3: 28).

This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ.

Before his conversion, Paul had not been a man distant from God and from his Law. On the contrary, he had been observant, with an observance faithful to the point of fanaticism. In the light of the encounter with Christ, however, he understood that with this he had sought to build up himself and his own justice, and that with all this justice he had lived for himself.

He realized that a new approach in his life was absolutely essential. And we find this new approach expressed in his words: “The life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2: 20).

Paul, therefore, no longer lives for himself, for his own justice. He lives for Christ and with Christ: in giving of himself, he is no longer seeking and building himself up. This is the new justice, the new orientation given to us by the Lord, given to us by faith.

Before the Cross of Christ, the extreme expression of his self-giving, there is no one who can boast of himself, of his own self-made justice, made for himself! Elsewhere, re-echoing Jeremiah, Paul explains this thought, writing, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord” (I Cor 1: 31 = Jer 9: 23-24ff.); or: “Far be it from me to glory except in the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6: 14).

In reflecting on what justification means, not for actions but for faith, we thus come to the second component that defines the Christian identity described by St Paul in his own life.

This Christian identity is composed of precisely two elements: this restraint from seeking oneself by oneself but instead receiving oneself from Christ and giving oneself with Christ, thereby participating personally in the life of Christ himself to the point of identifying with him and sharing both his death and his life. This is what Paul wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “[A]ll of us… were baptized into his death… we were buried therefore with him… we have been united with him… So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6: 3, 4, 5, 11).

These last words themselves are symptomatic: for Paul, in fact, it was not enough to say that Christians are baptized or believers; for him, it was just as important to say they are “in Christ Jesus” (cf. also Rom 8: 1, 2, 39; 12: 5; 16: 3, 7, 10; I Cor 1: 2, 3 etc.).

At other times he inverted the words and wrote: “Christ is in us/you” (Rom 8: 10; II Cor 13: 5) or “in me” (Gal 2: 20).

 

[david_friol_1]

This mutual compenetration between Christ and the Christian, characteristic of Paul’s teaching, completes his discourse on faith.

In fact, although faith unites us closely to Christ, it emphasizes the distinction between us and him; but according to Paul, Christian life also has an element that we might describe as “mystical”, since it entails an identification of ourselves with Christ and of Christ with us. In this sense, the Apostle even went so far as to describe our suffering as “the suffering of Christ” in us (II Cor 1: 5), so that we might “always [carry] in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies” (II Cor 4: 10).

We must fit all this into our daily lives by following the example of Paul, who always lived with this great spiritual range. Besides, faith must constantly express humility before God, indeed, adoration and praise.

Indeed, it is to him and his grace alone that we owe what we are as Christians. Since nothing and no one can replace him, it is necessary that we pay homage to nothing and no one else but him. No idol should pollute our spiritual universe or otherwise, instead of enjoying the freedom acquired, we will relapse into a humiliating form of slavery.

Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour.

 

[jericho777]

Jericho777,
I see from the above exchange between you and guanophore the common disconnect between Ctholics and Protestants on
a) what the church teaches and how individuals express it, and
b) the interplay between faith, grace and works.

You say in your post:
It is only by grace through faith that saves. To look at ones salvation based on their works no matter good they think they are, is not relying on the gift of God alone. The purpose of our works is to bring glory Him and reveal His workmanship before the world and nothing else.
You may not realize it but you have just made a statement perfectly in line with Catholic teaching.
Our Salvation IS based on faith alone through grace alone, and is a free and undeserved gift from God thru Christ. The Catholic Church gladly affirms this and teaches same.
I undelined, “based on”, above because this is where the disconnet seems to start. As soon as someone (catholic) begins to talk about works as being a necessary part of salvation, the protestant wishes to impose the term “works based” which, of course, is erroneous since one is not Catholic without faith and our works stem from that faith. Therefore the works are built upon our faith base.

I have yet to meet and talk with a (properly taught) protestant that does not think that works are a necessary part of the Christian life and salvation. This is how we both understand James’ famous reference to fith without works being dead.
Likewise I have yet to meet and talk with a (properly taught) Catholic who does not think that faith is the essential underpinning of our Chrisitan life and salvation.
So what is the problem?

The problem I think is this. When we, Catholics or chrisitans in general talk amongst ourselves, we take certain things for granted. Like that the persons we are talking to/with already have faith. In most conversations, faith is a given. We ALREADY agree on the need for faith and grace. It is in the areas of demonstrating that faith that we sometimes have questions and/or disagreements and not on the prerequisite need for faith itself.
St James in His Epistle speaks of works as necessary to demonstrate that one has a saving faith. He does not speak of faith seperated from works or works seperated from faith, but of the two things being interconnected.
So, in like manner, we speak of works, not seperate from faith, but as ways of doing two things.

1. As a “self check” to see that our faith is not dead (James 2)
2. Two, as a means of receiving addtional grace, or a strengthening of grace, by actively promoting the Kingodm of God and Christian principles in our daily lives.

But in all of the above, and in all of our discussions here re: works, it is ALL predicated on the free gift of faith and grace.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Peace
James

Then how come so many here and dare I say most Catholics are so strongly of the notion works = salvation. Do you correct them as to their error?
These are pretty misinformed notions of the truth.

“we will be judged according to what we have done - not what we have believed”

“There will be those who died in a state of disgrace and forfeited heaven who, after entering a state of grace, had the opportunity and means to do a million and one good works and only did a million.”

There actually is a mathmatical formula for this. It is based on fractions of life lived, works that are both spiritual and corporeal

I would say we need to look at all scriptures surrounding the issue to gain insight to their true meaning. Look at Eph 2:8-10 it gives a complete look from faith to grace and the relationship of works in the equation. The author emphatically separates works from salvation assigning them the role of an effect of the salvation experience the Lord has prepared for us to do ahead of time.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

 

[JRKH]

Then how come so many here and dare I say most Catholics are so strongly of the notion works = salvation. Do you correct them as to their error?
These are pretty misinformed notions of the truth.

“we will be judged according to what we have done - not what we have believed”

“There will be those who died in a state of disgrace and forfeited heaven who, after entering a state of grace, had the opportunity and means to do a million and one good works and only did a million.”

There actually is a mathmatical formula for this. It is based on fractions of life lived, works that are both spiritual and corporeal

If I encounter someone who believes that they can “work their way to heaven” without faith, I will certainly correct them. Just as I correct those who think that they need do nothing more than “believe” (have faith) in order to be saved.
Either view is wrong.
However, if you feel there is a significant number of Catholics here who believe that they can get to heaven by their works apart from faith, may I suggest you design a post with a poll asking the folks here if they believe that “works (sans faith) = salvation”. Perhaps in that way you can begin to see where the disconnect exists.

As I said earlier, there is a factor at work that is, akin to “peaching to the choir”, in a place like Catholic Answers. When we are here, talking among ourselves, as a group of people of faith, is there a need to talk about how faith underlies everything else? Does every post need to have this stated at it’s beginning?
I’m sure that this is not what you are implying.
Rather, because we are all members of the same faith community, we do not rehash something that is a common teaching and belief unless it appears that someone actually does believe as you assume. Instead we discuss particular issues that arise in living out the faith in Christ.

I’m sure that you do the same thing in you faith community as well. I’m sure that every time someone speaks of performing an act of charity, or seeks to organize same, it isn’t necessary to say something like, “Of course I’m saved by faith and not works but I’m going to volunteer at the soup kitchen (or whatever)”. Instead you simply say, “I’m going to volunteer at the soup kitchen”.
You don’t need to say it because everyone else believes this same thing.

I would say we need to look at all scriptures surrounding the issue to gain insight to their true meaning.

(sigh)
We DO look at all the scriptures. We have been looking at all the Scriptures for nearly 2000 years. Please excuse my frustration here, but if you were looking at ALL the scriptures, you would be comparing the verses below to what James has to say as well as the teachings of Christ…You would be looking at them as a part of this whole and then you would not misread Ephesians as you have.

Look at Eph 2:8-10 it gives a complete look from faith to grace and the relationship of works in the equation. The author emphatically separates works from salvation assigning them the role of an effect of the salvation experience the Lord has prepared for us to do ahead of time.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

The author does NOT seperate faith from works…We are saved by Grace through faith…It is a free gift…So far so good - It is not the result of works. Does this mean works are not a part of our salvation? It does not.
This simply means our salvation is not purchased by our works.
However, by what James tells us, it is by our works that we know whether the “faith” we purport to have is a saving faith. Faith without works is dead, says James, and he also asks, can a dead faith save? I’m sure you will agree it cannot. Therefore, in this James and Paul are in perfect agreement. Faith (that is saving faith) produces works. No works illustrates no living faith and therefore no saving faith. Paul approaches the subject from one view and James completes the picture by coming from the other view.

I really don’t see what I’m missing here.

 

[guanophore]

It’s probably not the official teaching but in practice from the conversations here it is the focus and belief. People will say grace but are focusing on their works and being good enough. Here is a sample from a thread on this forum. Their primary focus is on works and what you do not grace and faith.

I agree. I think most Catholics have a deficient concept of grace. I know that I did, being raised Catholic, I believed it was all about “being good”. I had to be captured by Baptists to really understand the concepts of grace through the scriptures.

There is a world of difference between “working out” what is at work in you and “working on” your salvation.

The focus has to be on grace.

A response: John teaches, in his Apocalypse (aka Revelation 20:12-13), that*** we will be judged according to what we have done - not what we have believed.*** Jesus taught in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), that we are entrusted with something valuable (the Gospel), and are expected to multiply it in our lives, and not keep it hidden.

Question: Or do we just need to die in a state of grace? What role do works play in salvation?

Thanks!

I don’t remember this post, so maybe I did not read it as carefully as I do now. I think it is creating a false dichotomy to say we will be judged according to “what we have done-not what we have believed.”. I say this because what we “do” proceeds out of what we believe. A good tree will bear good fruit.

Yes, we are to multiply the gospel in our lives, but first we are to embrace that gospel for ourselves. It is clear that not everyone who says “:Lord, Lord” is in a relation ship with Him (“I never knew you”). Faith is also a work, and is the primary and most important work.

Answer: There actually is a mathmatical formula for this. It is based on fractions of life lived, works that are both spiritual and corpreal. And, your situation may or may not require an adjustment depending on the century you lived in and who was holding the keys at the time.

I hope you don’t think this was a serious Catholic answer. The Church does not teach this.
Did it occur to you that the author was just being cynical?

Part of another response: “There will be those who died in a state of disgrace and forfeited heaven who, after entering a state of grace, had the opportunity and means to do a million and one good works and only did a million.”

I am not sure what the author was trying to say here, and since you did not give a reference, I can’t check the context. Being in a state of grace has nothing to do with how many good works a person accomplishes. Those who get hired at the end of the day and only work for an hour get the same remuneration.

These are all catholics talking amongst themselves. I see this notion perpetuated here all the time. I also get this from catholics I speak to in person. Aren’t they led to believe this from the church?

No, I don’;t think they are led to believe this by the church, as the Church does not teach these things. However, I do think there is some very poor catechesis (I was a victim of it as well) and some poor examples and people do end up with the wrong ideas, even though the source is not the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Then how come so many here and dare I say most Catholics are so strongly of the notion works = salvation. Do you correct them as to their error?
These are pretty misinformed notions of the truth.

I honestly don’t see that many that have this notion, but if I did, I would certainly say something. I think if you were to look at my posts you would find this to be the case. I am one of the first to jump into a “works” thread.

I would say we need to look at all scriptures surrounding the issue to gain insight to their true meaning. Look at Eph 2:8-10 it gives a complete look from faith to grace and the relationship of works in the equation. The author emphatically separates works from salvation assigning them the role of an effect of the salvation experience the Lord has prepared for us to do ahead of time.

I agree that we need to look at all the scriptures, and understand them, but I dont’ agree that works are “emphatically separated from salvation”. On the contrary, when I read that passage, it seems clear to me that the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them are the purpose of salvation, and are inextricably connected to it.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Does it not appear to you that we are created FOR these works? If a person’s apparent salvation is not accompanied by them, I would question whether such a person had a saving faith. Faith that saves is faith that works.

 

[Curious_Seed]

What really is the actual difference?

In the Southern Baptist Church, I was taught that salvation by works meant being nice to people, giving money to charity, etc. Of course, (I think) most Christians know that that is not enough. Belief in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice is the core of Christianity. So, I was told that there are 2 schools of thought: Salvation by professing belief in Jesus Christ or believing oneself saved b/c you are a nice person, etc.

But the Catholic Church’s salvation by works does not mean that- right? It means Believing in Jesus, receiving communion, and they other sacraments- right? In other words, to me, it means believing in Jesus and then striving to be a better Christian every God-granted day you live (by doing things such as receiving communion).

So, is the salvation by works touted by the Baptist church just “spin” on the actual meaning of it through the Catholic church? And, why? I mean, accepting God’s grace is the beginning of a Christian life- and you can fall from it too (right?). If a person professes faith in Jesus and then lives as a cruel, horrible person who never again prays, then is that person “saved by grace alone?” I mean, really…really? Hard to believe that.

I am having alot of difficulty understanding and dealing with all the, what seem to be, semantics that divide Christians. And this discussion about means of salvation has been in my head… hope it is understandable.

I would be surprised to learn of any Christian who believes that works could ever be sufficient to save his/her soul.

Clearly and unequivocally - by the Grace of Christ alone - we are saved.

Having said that, Christian living does involve wearing a yoke and does involve using our talents.

 

[david_friol_1]

His purpose is to save us based on who He is and according His sovereign will. Our purpose is to be His craftsmanship bringing Him glory by our way of life. Ask yourself by whose will is it that you be saved in the first place? What do you bring to the salvation equation if it “is not your own doing”? Don’t you think He gives us the desire and ability to love and serve Him if we are His workmanship? Otherwise He is not a very good creator. Tell me anything that God has created that doesn’t fulfill His intended purpose?

jericho777 You ask:
"Ask yourself by whose will is it that you be saved in the first place?" God desires that all mankind be saved but he is not a bully who pins us down against our will and forces us into salvation. We do have a choice to believe and obey his word.

**“What do you bring to the salvation equation if it “is not your own doing”?” ** God gives us everything including the choice to believe and do the “good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”(Ephesians 2:10). But the choice is ours to make and we make it every day, every moment of every day, “from faith to faith”(Romans 1:17). But if we choose the other path,for example 1 Cor.6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomitesnor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

"Don’t you think He gives us the desire and ability to love and serve Him if we are His workmanship?" ** It is like the same question repeated over and over and over and over. Yes God does give us these abilities but the question remains will we use them “from faith to faith” for the rest of our lives or will we fall away (Romans 11:22 “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” *** This is falling away*

"Tell me anything that God has created that doesn’t fulfill His intended purpose?" Gee wiz! Adam, Eve, Satan(fallen angel), Cain, you and I when we sin etc. You have to twist the scriptures to say such a silly question!

 

[jericho777]

I don’t remember this post, so maybe I did not read it as carefully as I do now. I think it is creating a false dichotomy to say we will be judged according to “what we have done-not what we have believed.”. I say this because what we “do” proceeds out of what we believe. A good tree will bear good fruit.

These were taken from a thread back in Dec 2010. I copied them to a document because I thought they were so shocking. There was no way I was going to get tangled up in that mess.

I hope you don’t think this was a serious Catholic answer. The Church does not teach this.
Did it occur to you that the author was just being cynical?

It was a serious discussion even the one who believed in an actual mathematical formula.

I am not sure what the author was trying to say here, and since you did not give a reference, I can’t check the context. Being in a state of grace has nothing to do with how many good works a person accomplishes. Those who get hired at the end of the day and only work for an hour get the same remuneration.

The point the author was trying to make was the person did 1 million good works but lost his salvation because he failed to do the 1 million and 1 God had prepared for him.

No, I don’;t think they are led to believe this by the church, as the Church does not teach these things. However, I do think there is some very poor catechesis (I was a victim of it as well) and some poor examples and people do end up with the wrong ideas, even though the source is not the Church.

Apparently I was one also, yet it still continues to this day. Members of my and my wife’s family have no clue as to what the CC teaches. They are all Catholic from birth and are marginal at best. This even goes for my co workers.

 

[guanophore]

These were taken from a thread back in Dec 2010. I copied them to a document because I thought they were so shocking. There was no way I was going to get tangled up in that mess.

Have you changed your mind?

It was a serious discussion even the one who believed in an actual mathematical formula.

Well, it is difficult to believe, but I am not familiar with the thread,so I will accept that you took it serious.

People have a predilection for a fantastic imagination. That does not equate to the Teaching of the Church.

The point the author was trying to make was the person did 1 million good works but lost his salvation because he failed to do the 1 million and 1 God had prepared for him.

And what is your problem with this?

Apparently I was one also, yet it still continues to this day. Members of my and my wife’s family have no clue as to what the CC teaches. They are all Catholic from birth and are marginal at best. This even goes for my co workers.

Perhaps, instead of sitting back taking pot shots at those who are lost, you might consider educating yourself, then educating those around you. Has it ever occurred to you that you are bothered by this type of misinformation because you are being called to do something about it?

 

[jericho777]

Have you changed your mind? ?

I don’t know what to believe. Perception is reality and an awful lot of Catholics believe this. Honestly when I was Catholic I did what I was taught and had no knowledge of anything else. I’m sure most Catholics today are doing the same thing.

Well, it is difficult to believe, but I am not familiar with the thread,so I will accept that you took it serious.?

People have a predilection for a fantastic imagination. That does not equate to the Teaching of the Church.?

Again perception is reality. This thinking is coming from somewhere, most Catholics thoughts are based on what they have learned from the church.

And what is your problem with this??

Then salvation then becomes based on our effort (works) and not on grace through faith.

Perhaps, instead of sitting back taking pot shots at those who are lost, you might consider educating yourself, then educating those around you. Has it ever occurred to you that you are bothered by this type of misinformation because you are being called to do something about it?

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just sharing an observation. I’m always open to sharing the truth with people.

 

[JRKH]

jericho,
I don’t want you to get the feeling that we are ganging up on you, since you are responding to someone else below, but there are a couple of things below that I felt I needed to comment on.

I don’t know what to believe. Perception is reality and an awful lot of Catholics believe this. Honestly when I was Catholic I did what I was taught and had no knowledge of anything else. I’m sure most Catholics today are doing the same thing.

Perception is not reality. Perception is merely ones conclusion based on observation. It may or may not be consistant with reality.
To use a simple example people use to think the earth flat. A reasonable perception based on observation at that time - but certainly not reality.

Again perception is reality. This thinking is coming from somewhere, most Catholics thoughts are based on what they have learned from the church.

There may be some truth in this as catechesis has been pretty poor lately, but I think that what many Catholics thoughts are based on (if they do much thniking at all) is what they hear from other Catholics.
The serious Catholic has a great treasure in the documented teachings of the Church though and we should take advatage of it so that we can correct those who are working under a false understanding.

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just sharing an observation. I’m always open to sharing the truth with people.

You kind of jump from " sharing an observation" to “Sharing the truth” as if the two are the same thing.
I’m not attacking you here, but lets try to keep two things quite clear and seperate. The Church teaches certain things and these things are documented. Individuals, might (and do) act in ways contrary to these teachings out of ignorance, defiance, or “lukewarmness”. But the thoughts and actionsof individuals, and your perceptions, you robservations of those throughts and actions, in no way changes what the Church teaches.
The Church has documented teachings (reality)
You have observations and conclusions based on these (perceptions)
These two things, perception and reality may or may not coincide.

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

jericho,
I don’t want you to get the feeling that we are ganging up on you, since you are responding to someone else below, but there are a couple of things below that I felt I needed to comment on.

Perception is not reality. Perception is merely ones conclusion based on observation. It may or may not be consistant with reality.
To use a simple example people use to think the earth flat. A reasonable perception based on observation at that time - but certainly not reality.

There may be some truth in this as catechesis has been pretty poor lately, but I think that what many Catholics thoughts are based on (if they do much thniking at all) is what they hear from other Catholics.
The serious Catholic has a great treasure in the documented teachings of the Church though and we should take advatage of it so that we can correct those who are working under a false understanding.

You kind of jump from " sharing an observation" to “Sharing the truth” as if the two are the same thing.
I’m not attacking you here, but lets try to keep two things quite clear and seperate. The Church teaches certain things and these things are documented. Individuals, might (and do) act in ways contrary to these teachings out of ignorance, defiance, or “lukewarmness”. But the thoughts and actionsof individuals, and your perceptions, you robservations of those throughts and actions, in no way changes what the Church teaches.
The Church has documented teachings (reality)
You have observations and conclusions based on these (perceptions)
These two things, perception and reality may or may not coincide.

Peace
James

I should have been a little clearer. My “perception being reality” comment was in regard to Catholics who believe in a works based salvation. Although I wonder myself if this belief is not perpetuated somehow by the church.

How many Catholics know what the church really teaches or can explain it? They go on what they have learned in CCD and any additional tidbits that may come through a sermon. As a bible Christian I find there is a greater knowledge of scripture and a burning desire to keep on learning. While Catholics seem to be complacent in their faith.

I’m not trying to equate the both. The observations were from a thread here and firsthand personal experience and just that. Personally I am committed to living out the gospel and sharing the good news with all.

 

[JRKH]

I should have been a little clearer. My “perception being reality” comment was in regard to Catholics who believe in a works based salvation. Although I wonder myself if this belief is not perpetuated somehow by the church.

Well if you want to know what the Church perpetuates (teaches) then go to the documented teachings in the Catechism. That’s the best place to start and finish. As to anecdotal evidence (peoples comments and such) they are just that - opinion.

How many Catholics know what the church really teaches or can explain it? They go on what they have learned in CCD and any additional tidbits that may come through a sermon. As a bible Christian I find there is a greater knowledge of scripture and a burning desire to keep on learning. While Catholics seem to be complacent in their faith.

Well - as for Catholics being complacent…We’d have to look at that on a case by case basis. Blanket statements just won’t work.
You say that “As a bible Christian I find there is a greater knowledge of scripture and a burning desire to keep on learning”. I assume you are talking about a general fell among your congregation. While I’m sure your view is quite correct - in so far as it goes - it is just as likely to be mere perception as well. i say that because, those who attend services are those truly interested. Those who aren’t interested don’t bother to show up. Whereas in the Catholic Church you have that intermediate group that attends weekly mass but not much else.
But I think you will find a great many very interested Catholics right here.

I’m not trying to equate the both. The observations were from a thread here and firsthand personal experience and just that. Personally I am committed to living out the gospel and sharing the good news with all.

Glad to hear it. That is the main thing. To live out the Gospel.

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

Well if you want to know what the Church perpetuates (teaches) then go to the documented teachings in the Catechism. That’s the best place to start and finish. As to anecdotal evidence (peoples comments and such) they are just that - opinion.

Hi James, I agree very much that opinion is just that. But how do you account for so much misconception among Catholics? I believed as much when I was Catholic. It was always about being good enough.

Well - as for Catholics being complacent…We’d have to look at that on a case by case basis. Blanket statements just won’t work.
You say that “As a bible Christian I find there is a greater knowledge of scripture and a burning desire to keep on learning”. I assume you are talking about a general fell among your congregation. While I’m sure your view is quite correct - in so far as it goes - it is just as likely to be mere perception as well. i say that because, those who attend services are those truly interested. Those who aren’t interested don’t bother to show up. Whereas in the Catholic Church you have that intermediate group that attends weekly mass but not much else.
But I think you will find a great many very interested Catholics right here.

Peace
James

That’s a fair assessment. But even when I was catholic there was never a desire to go deeper in faith. You didn’t read the bible or even care what it said. You just relied on what the priest told you to do. I was never aware there was a deeper expression of faith. My whole family and everyone we knew pretty much was catholic. How we lived was the norm and that’s how I see a fair amount of Catholics living today. You are right there is an even greater number who don’t even care about being Catholic. I do find it interesting though they consider themselves to be good Catholics.

Here is the exception for Catholics in my opinion. Not the norm.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James, I agree very much that opinion is just that. But how do you account for so much misconception among Catholics? I believed as much when I was Catholic. It was always about being good enough.

You ask a fair question. But not one with a simple answer though…
There are a number of factors that can contribute to the misconception.
The first thing to note though is that it may not only be Catholics who have a misconception. By that I mean, the fact that Catholics are concerned with being “good enough” has to do with the fact that we don’t believe in a) faith without works and b) OSAS. This means that the Church teaches that there are things to be done, actions taken etc. that are part and parcel to being Catholic. Faith is, of course, necesary but it is only the necessary first step.

Second, the Church has gone through a period of poor teaching to our youth. This is a complicated issue that stemmed from the time of the second Vatican Council and, frankly, I think that too many bishops, teachers, religious, and laypeople, tried to change too much to quickly and without a good focus. This was not the fault of the council itself, so much as it was the fault of those who tried to impose their own take on what the council said.
One of the worst things was that, in the confusion, the very basic Catechesis of our young suffered. My understanding was that there was some confusion as to whether the “Baltimore Catechism” was still to be used so many stopped using it to teach our little ones.

We could go on but it would really need a thread all to itself…I too was one of those who didn’t understand and fell away…only to find my way back many years later…

That’s a fair assessment. But even when I was catholic there was never a desire to go deeper in faith. You didn’t read the bible or even care what it said. You just relied on what the priest told you to do. I was never aware there was a deeper expression of faith.

I think that this is both true and false. I don’t believe that Catholics (at least those I knew) did not care what the bible said, after all we heard it read every day/week at mass. I do agree that we relied on what our pastor told us. But I think that this is also true in the protestant world, that you rely on your pastor, though perhaps to a lesser extent.

As to being aware of a deeper expression of faith, I can only speak for myself and my family, but I was always aware that there was more. My parents and grand-parents were very devout. I had a great-great Uncle who was a Franciscan priest and I knew him in his last years - a very holy man. My God-father (also my uncle) had started seminary but dropped out, married and raised 8 children and was a big factor in my return to the faith.
Yes - I knew many who were “nominal Catholics” but my personal experience, for the most part, was one of devotion and contact with good religious people.

My whole family and everyone we knew pretty much was catholic. How we lived was the norm and that’s how I see a fair amount of Catholics living today. You are right there is an even greater number who don’t even care about being Catholic. I do find it interesting though they consider themselves to be good Catholics.

Well I think that we both understand about the “sheep and the goats” or the “weeds growing in with the wheat”. I think we will also both agree that the path is a narrow gate and that not all who try will enter.
But there is another factor that we should consider here. One that is often brought up here at CAF. That is that we shouold not judge merely by appearance. It’s sometimes hard to know the spiritual state of another. Jesus specifically told us not to do things openly and in public, that we might be rewarded in public. Rather we are to do thing quietly. So some (certainly not all) of the people you see that might seem to be just nominal catholics, might in truth be performing many private devotions, constatn prayer and works of charity that are unseen.

Here is the exception for Catholics in my opinion. Not the norm.

Well I will agree that this is an exeptional site with many good and sincere Christians of all stripes.
What constitutes a “Norm” - I don’t know. There are so many factors involved…I’m not sure that I could even define what the “norm” might be…
Among practicing Catholics is it the norm to:

• Have faith? Certainly. Certainly among those who come to mass weekly.
• To pray? Again I’d have to say that probably most practicing Catholics pray daily…maybe not a lot or a long time, but they do pray.
• Believe in Batism? - Yup
• To believe in the forgiveness of sin? Yes
• To believe in doing good works? Yes
• To Desire to Please God? Yes

So - How do you think that my view of “Norm” among Catholics stacks up agianst your “norm”?

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know what to believe. Perception is reality

Where did you ever get a kockamamie idea like that? About perception, Jesus said that if your eye (perception) is sound (correct):

Luke 11:34-36
If your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light; but if it is not healthy, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore consider whether the light in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, with no part of it in darkness, it will be as full of light as when a lamp gives you light with its rays."

People who have an unsound perception are full of darkness. I agree, their perception is their reality, and in their world, they are missing the gospel of grace.

However, people lacking light in their perception does not change the Truth for anyone but themselves.

How can you say “I don’t know what to believe?”. Surely you can trust that the revelation of God of Himself is trustworthy, can you not?

Rom 3:3-4
Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,

“So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.”

You will be judged by God, not by those who have not perceived the Truth.

and an awful lot of Catholics believe this. Honestly when I was Catholic I did what I was taught and had no knowledge of anything else. I’m sure most Catholics today are doing the same thing.

Yes, I think you are right. Have you ever considered that God has called you to reach out to such persons, to help them better understand and experience the Gospel of Grace?

Again perception is reality. This thinking is coming from somewhere, most Catholics thoughts are based on what they have learned from the church.

There has been a very poor catechesis in many areas. However, the Truth is not defined by those who depart from it.

If you can show me where the Church teaches these falsehoods, then you might have a case. If not, all you are doing is basing your decision on misinformation and misconduct borne of ignorance. It seems like a foundation of sand to me.

Then salvation then becomes based on our effort (works) and not on grace through faith.

Please show me where the Church teaches this.

**

I’m not taking pot shots I’m just sharing an observation. I’m always open to sharing the truth with people.

In that case, let us focus on the Truth, rather than those who are not walking in it. Bring out the catechism, and other Teaching documents of the church that show anywhere that we are saved based on our effort.

This is an heresy that was defeated in the early centuries by the Church (Pelagianism).**

 

[guanophore]

I should have been a little clearer. My “perception being reality” comment was in regard to Catholics who believe in a works based salvation.

Yes, I agree. We do act in accordance to how we perceive through our senses. This is why being misinformed about the Truth causes so much human suffering.

Although I wonder myself if this belief is not perpetuated somehow by the church.

This is a fair and just question. I challenge you to find this out, not looking at poor examples in people, but in the official Teachings of the Aposltes preserved infallibly by the HS in the Church.

I had the same question once.

How many Catholics know what the church really teaches or can explain it?

I would say only a small minority of all those who have been baptized Catholic, and only a fraction of those in the pews on Sunday. I have not done an official survey, though, but other have studied this, and it is clear that the majority of American Catholics deny the Teachings of the Church.

They go on what they have learned in CCD and any additional tidbits that may come through a sermon. As a bible Christian I find there is a greater knowledge of scripture and a burning desire to keep on learning. While Catholics seem to be complacent in their faith.

I sure can’t argue that. However, I can again pose the question; how do you know that God is not calling you to minister to the very persons you are criticizing?

Personally I am committed to living out the gospel and sharing the good news with all.

So, how are you reaching these poorly catechized Catholics?