Salvation can be lost

[peeteyg]

I am having a debate with my best friend. He is a Once Saved Always Saved breed of protestant. He says he is sad for me cause I am not assurred of my salvation. I keep telling him that no one knows who the elect are and no one has an assurance of salvation. I am hoping that I can get different perspectives and I know of many passages that show salvation is not assured, but we have to persevere. I apprecviate any comments on either side of this issue.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Ask him what he would say about a protestant minister, say a baptist, who lives a model life of holiness, preaches the gospel, well loved by all etc. etc. He believes in the certainty of his own salvation - and indeed so does everyone who knows him. But then one day suddenly renounces his faith, abandons his wife and family and runs off with his secretary and lives a very sinful life. [This scenario does sometimes happen]

Ask him if he would say this man is saved?

If he says yes, then show him Hebrews 10.26, which rather clearly shows that wanton sin causes there no longer to be a sacrifice for sin: *“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.” * [NIV]

If he says no, then push him further, and he will have to say that the man’s later conduct demonstrates that he was never really saved in the first place. Then you can ask him, well how can you be completely certain that at some point in the future you may not go off and commit some equally heinous sin, which would prove to the world that you are not really saved? At this point, if he is honest, he will come to admit that he does still have free will, and therefore he could, however slim he may feel the chance to be, choose to turn radically away from God at some point in the future.

 

[coolcatholicguy]

I agree with Crown of Thorns.

 

[Julian0404]

I am having a debate with my best friend. He is a Once Saved Always Saved breed of protestant. He says he is sad for me cause I am not assurred of my salvation. I keep telling him that no one knows who the elect are and no one has an assurance of salvation. I am hoping that I can get different perspectives and I know of many passages that show salvation is not assured, but we have to persevere. I apprecviate any comments on either side of this issue.

Go to www.LighthouseCatholicMedia.org and get the CD FINDING THE FULLNESS OF FAITH by Steve Ray, who was a former, once saved always saved Baptist, and in this CD Steve relays that there are about 20 “if” statements in the book of John that relate directly to the protestants concept of -once saved always saved - but somehow they have always taught around and missed the “if” statements, which related direcly to salvation, “if” you do this, then salvation will come etc.
So share with our friend, that he has taken one phrase from the Bible out of context, and he is hanging his salvation on that one phrase, when in fact the big picture is conditional, not absolute.

 

[NHInsider]

The trouble with the fallen preacher hypothesis is that a real OSAS will simply say “he wasn’t really saved to begin with.” (One of the ironic consequences of the OSAS “assurance” is that having recourse to that excuse makes it just as insecure as its adherents claim the orthodox position is. If you can think you’re really saved when you’re not really, what is the difference?)

1 Cor. 9:24-27. St. Paul comments that he keeps on disciplining himself, so that he doesn’t become disqualified and lose the prize (of salvation). Also Romans 11:17-22 where he warns gentile Christians that they shouldn’t be arrogant, because they could be cut off (from the root, Jesus) again.

Scripturecatholic.com has a whole page of these (and also of the verses that OSAS believers use as their “proofs” which may be useful. Click on “Salvation” on the sidebar, and scroll down.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I am having a debate with my best friend. He is a Once Saved Always Saved breed of protestant. He says he is sad for me cause I am not assurred of my salvation. I keep telling him that no one knows who the elect are and no one has an assurance of salvation. I am hoping that I can get different perspectives and I know of many passages that show salvation is not assured, but we have to persevere. I apprecviate any comments on either side of this issue.

Actually, Catholics do have assurance of salvation–the assurance that a faithful son has of his inheritance. A faithful son does not live in axiety about losing his inheritance. In the same way, faithful Catholics do not live in anxiety either. We know we have a Father who can and will keep His word. Once a child of God, always a child of God. Of course a son can become unfaithful and not stick around to receive his inheritance, but that is up to him.

 

[NotWorthy]

When dealing with a Baptist, you need to argue from Scripture. I would ask your friend what it means to have your name erased from the Book of Life:

Revelation 3:4-5 - 4 ****** However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.*** 5 ****** " '"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life ***but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.

 

[NHInsider]

Actually, Catholics do have assurance of salvation–the assurance that a faithful son has of his inheritance. A faithful son does not live in axiety about losing his inheritance. In the same way, faithful Catholics do not live in anxiety either. We know we have a Father who can and will keep His word. Once a child of God, always a child of God. Of course a son can become unfaithful and not stick around to receive his inheritance, but that is up to him.

Nicely put!

 

[erikd]

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

If one cannot lose their salvation, St. Paul would certainly not speak of “grafting again” as it would not be necessary. In fact, St. Paul clearly shows that one can be “cut off” if one does not “continue in His goodness.”

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22

Here, St. Peter speaks of the responsibility one has that comes with the knowledge of God. The sinner is compared to a dog returning to its vomit and is represented as one who “escaped the pollutions of the world” and then becomes “entangled in them and overcome.” It seems unlikely for St. Paul to speak of this if it was never meant to be an issue.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31

St. Paul, again, speaking of the responsibility of knowing the truth. Ones who do not live in the truth are described as “adversaries” who “trampled the Son of God underfoot.” It again seems unlikely that St. Paul would be explaining this if salvation were not at stake.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37

In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:

23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26

14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14

Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51

According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.

 

[Zooey]

Actually, Catholics do have assurance of salvation–the assurance that a faithful son has of his inheritance. A faithful son does not live in axiety about losing his inheritance. In the same way, faithful Catholics do not live in anxiety either. We know we have a Father who can and will keep His word. Once a child of God, always a child of God. Of course a son can become unfaithful and not stick around to receive his inheritance, but that is up to him.

That sounds very Methodist, as well!
Well put!!

 

[NotWorthy]

That sounds very Methodist, as well!
Well put!!

Well, where do you think you Methodists got it from?!?

 

[Faith5]

Yes, our Salvation can be lost. Come to think of it, anything can be lost.
I have total confidence–especially after confession-of my salvation. However,
life is a struggle and all of us can fall. The Prodigal Son parable is instructive. Luke 15.
The son was dead. Scripture and common sense go a long way in helping us understand
Biblical truths.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The trouble with the fallen preacher hypothesis is that a real OSAS will simply say “he wasn’t really saved to begin with.” (One of the ironic consequences of the OSAS “assurance” is that having recourse to that excuse makes it just as insecure as its adherents claim the orthodox position is. If you can think you’re really saved when you’re not really, what is the difference?)

 

[Beth_Martin]

I am having a debate with my best friend. He is a Once Saved Always Saved breed of protestant. He says he is sad for me cause I am not assurred of my salvation. I keep telling him that no one knows who the elect are and no one has an assurance of salvation. I am hoping that I can get different perspectives and I know of many passages that show salvation is not assured, but we have to persevere. I apprecviate any comments on either side of this issue.

Hi,

I agree with your best friend. I wish I could remember who said this, but I cannot "One can no more earn their salvation than they can lose their salvation because it is a gift"

The best best passage among many and one of my favorites I would like to share with all of you is this:
Titus 3:1-8
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. ****4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ****8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

I think of Paul upon his conversion; he had done all the things to earn his way to heaven and when he saw Jesus is counted all he had worked for as “dung”.

Philippians 3:4-8
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed ***I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, ***that I may gain Christ

From my years of interacting with Christians of all denominations; I have discovered that those who have let go and embrace the doctrine of elction, which cannot be denied as being taught in Scripture, have gained even deeper insights into the love that God has for His children. And although i agree you cannot always know who are the elect; the elect do know and the Scripture also teaches that the Christian knows they are a Christian; wouldn’t it be silly of God to keep the Christian from not knowing they are a Christian; that makes no sense does it? Some people who see Scripture as teaching one can lose their salvation often refer to passages that are speaking of non believers, not Christians, so it can get confusing if you cannot tell the difference, but as you read and study you will get better at making those types of distinctions and pray to God and ask Him for wisdom to understand the difference and He will not let His children down; would He?

It is a wonderful thing to know; it makes you want to serve all the more and to reach the lost for Christ all the more. It seems it would have the opposite effect, but it doesn’t and I think it is just because of the appreciation one has to God; it inspires you to be all the more obedient and you just want to share that excitment and have others experience the same. If God commands the Christian go tell people or pray for the lost, then you just want to do even more than you did before; it is hard to explain, but it is so true. I know good Christians who don’t want to accept it even though they see all the Scripture references; I think it is either spiritual immaturity or some pride within themselves that still lingers. I guess it depends on each individual Christian.

Let your friend see this post and ask him or her if this sums up how they feel; I would like to know their comments.

Also, is you friend online here; if so can I have their username to say hello?
Thanks and God bless.

Beth

PS I am new and look forward to getting to know each of you!

 

[Danno2281]

I may not be able to earn a gift, but I can certainly throw it away, or trade it for a trifle as did the pastor who ran off with his secretary above. Your adversary goes about like a roaring lion and we are not immune to his to his deceptions. The passage in Heb.10:29 points out that the lost soul had been sanctified in Christ’s blood, yet he chose to betray his great gift.

 

[SherryLynn9]

snippet
In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:38-39

St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:

23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26

14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14

Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51

According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.

One scripture reference regarding having your name blotted from the Book of Life. It had to be written there in order to be blotted out, right? I grew up Baptist, and the church I went to believed in OSAS. I know better now. I have listed several versions of Psa 69:28
(DRB) (69:29) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; and with the just let them not be written.
(GNB) May their names be erased from the book of the living; may they not be included in the list of your people.
(GW) Let their names be erased from the Book of Life. Do not let them be listed with righteous people.
(KJV+) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
(KJVA) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
(LITV) Blot them out from the Book of Life; yea, let them not be written with the righteous.
(RV) Let them be blotted out of the book of life, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[Beth_Martin]

When dealing with a Baptist, you need to argue from Scripture. I would ask your friend what it means to have your name erased from the Book of Life:

I hope you understand the Lord is making a point and it does not say He will or would remove a name from the “book of life”; you must look at the whole of salvation and if you just look at where the “book of life” phrase is used; then you will gain the clear understanding of what our Lord is teaching/saying. You cannot automatically conclude the antithesis to a phrase unless you can show it is taught elsewhere, which it is not. A common mistake, so don’t feel alone, we all make these kinds of mistakes.

Revelation 13:8 helps to put it in perspecive, just as the people that are saved were determined before the foundation of the world, this also means they were written in the “book of life” before the foundation of the world just as it is written:
***All who dwell on the earth will worship him, {everyone} whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. ***

I do understand where you are coming from if you are taught you can lose your salvation; it is a shame to be taught that for God is not one to play tricks with His children is He?
God bless,

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

I may not be able to earn a gift, but I can certainly throw it away, or trade it for a trifle as did the pastor who ran off with his secretary above. Your adversary goes about like a roaring lion and we are not immune to his to his deceptions. The passage in Heb.10:29 points out that the lost soul had been sanctified in Christ’s blood, yet he chose to betray his great gift.

Yes, I agree from a human and fallible perspective, but not from a godly and spiritual perspective, which is the Biblical perspective. If your religion teaches you that you can lose it, then you must stick to that belief, but God gave the gift for His specific purpose and what He purposes cannot be undone can it?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hello everybody,

I see that losing your salvation must be a doctrine taught by the Catholic church, correct me if I am wrong, as I see every Catholic here feels they can lose it. I canot dismiss where you are coming from because if this is what you are taught and thus what you beleive, then that is how it is.

I will tell you that God doesn’t play tricks like that; you are in, now your out, now your in, nope now your out. You have the HS, no you don’t, you have Him, now you don’t. See a Christian can turn away from God, only for a time if he/she is truly Christian, but since the Christian has the Holy Spirit, when they run away, they take Him with them because He dwells inside. You may forsake Him at times as a Christian, but He never forsakes His own.

God bless,

Beth

 

[eaglehwsj]

Something that tends to help me when I’m talking to someone who believes “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

If we use the terminology of “Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” as marker of the point when salvation was obtained for us, we are inherently wrong. The mere POSSIBILITY of salvation comes from Jesus’s death on the cross and his defeat of death. God always offers us salvation, but we, as Humans with free will, always have the option of rejecting that salvation. This is called mortal sin by Catholics.

At no point does God ever cut us off from salvation, however, we can cut ourselves off from God. This gives us the same end result, but we can always ask God for forgiveness (through a priest if possible) and, in doing so, we re-accept the salvation that God offers to us our entire mortal live.