Salvation can be lost

[erikd]

Read the profile information and you would not need to ask would you? I can see you are a very bitter and angry person on the inside because the Bible states that out of the heart the mouth speaks; so I will pray for you. I am sorry that the Bible is a stumbling block to you and that I have caused you to sin in anger, slander and hatred to another Christian. I assumed a Catholic was a Christian, but you seem to imply otherwise. Also, according to the advice from the greeter; they suggested apologetics where I could meet other Christians and could talk openly about the Bible, but either Catherine or Bob warned me that not all will be Christian.

May God bless you!

Beth

Hi Beth, let me see if I can bring this debate into another spectrum. Did you get a chance to read post #9? Since you love the Scriptures, let’s talk about Scripture. I have posted 7 sets of Biblical verses, 3 of those sets of verses coming from our Lord directly. All of these sets of verses, which do not appear to be taken out of context, seem to mention that one can be lost even after having been saved. I invite you to read those verses, and then to pick up your Holy Bible and read the entire chapters I quoted, so that you can read them in context. Let me know what you think.

 

[Beth_Martin]

If you believe you can "unsave yourself, then you must also have the power to save yourself or at least save yourself again…is that your understanding of what the Bible teaches?

This is a non-sequitur. Because I have the ability to destroy, it does not mean that I have the ability to create what I destroyed.
Please note that you have failed to address the following: “In denying that I have freely to accept the gifts of God, you make both salvation and condemnation necessary in God rather than contingent upon my free actions in response to God’s grace. God then becomes a monster who refuses to grace some and thereby necessitates their eternal damnation.”

I have heard the “monster god” many times when it comes to discussion on this particular topic across the board. The question who wrote the Bible? God or man? The answer is both; that is why it is called a paradox and I said in a previous post some are harder for us to wrap out limited minds around.

Would God be fair and just to save no one? Yes Why? All have fallen short of the glory of God, none are righteous, comitting a single sin is enough to condemn one to hell and all have done this. Would anyone be able to come to God unless God revealed Himself through the gospel? NO I know the exception of those who have not heard the gospel, but to focus on your point, I will presume the gospel.

The Bible does teach both that we make certain choices and that people go to hell for rejecting the gospel; yet it teaches no one can receive the gospel unless God opens their eyes to understand and accept; so the sovergnty of God in salvation and the human responsibility are both taught; a very difficult paradox to grasp and one that I cannot fully comprehend, but it is what is taught and since I believe the Word of God is infallible and without error; I accept all this by faith. This may very well be the point that God is trying t instill. I’m sure when I am in heaven I will not only fully understand this paradox, but I will see that God is just in it as well.

How just would God be if He saved everyone? He could since the atonement of Jesus is sufficient for all, but it is applied only to the Christian. (I’m excluding those that are under the age of accontability and the mentally challeneged that do not have the capacity to accept or deny for our discussion).

It is easy to understand why a Muslim would say that Christians worship 3 gods because the concept of the Trinity is difficult for the fallen human mind to perceive.

***just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,----***here God made the choice before the foundation of the world

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. -------- here He speaks of those who are slain, sent to hell from the foundation of the world.

From human logic and understanding I understand why God is sometimes refered to as a monster and even some would refer to us as mindless robots, as you implied by the question itself, but as any Christian that has studied the Bible; Paul has an answer to that very charge. “who answers back to God” In my opinion, we walk by faith and accept the things taught In the Bible and do not lean on our own understanding, but by the wisdom of God.

 

[Beth_Martin]

My point being that the Psalmist was speaking in hyperbole. There are some wise, even though the psalmist claims that there are none. There are some people who seek God even though the psalmist claims there aren’t.

That is correct. God raised the veil from Solomon’s eyes and gave him more wisdom than anyone else in the world.

How did that work out for Solomon?

Rasing the veil is God revealing Himself; once He reveals Himself; only at that time is the sinner able to see hinself as God sees him and is able to see God how He really is. Without that realization, then no one would come to God. I am almost certain you have heard the term irristable grace’ this is a special grace that God gives to the elect or chosen and He is providential in revealing Himself to whom ever He choses. Because no one is able to resist HIs “purposed” will, then the believer will come and seek salvation which God had already purposed for that individual.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hey Beth, I appreciate your comments. I understand where you are coming from but I think there are too many passages that demonstrate that salvation can be lost. Salvation is a free gift but a gift can be refused or given away. Jesus says that many are called but few are chosen. I like this passage because it shows that many think they are worthy of his wedding feast but are thrown out in the end. This doesn’t strike me as assurance of salvation. Paul says to work out you salvation with fear and trembling.

Man this leads me to feel assured of my salvation. It says that once you are in his hands no one can snatch you away, but we can of our own free will fall away. I don’t think that anyone knows for certain who the elect are and I think many dismiss the idea that there will be a judgement spoke of in revelation. We will be judged according to our works. There is another religion I know of that espouses assured salvation. It is the Jehovahs Witnesses, they have their numbered elect (annointed class) who can partake of the Lords supper and they are the only ones who are assured of their place in heaven. I deny this and I will persevere to the end and hope for heaven.

I was saved, I’m being saved and I hope to be saved. Paul many times spoke of Hope. It even says we should put on the Helmet that is hope for salvation Doesn’t look like assured salvation to me, it seems arrogant to me that one would think that they have assured salvation. I love my best friend and I don’t want him to not be dressed properly for the Lambs wedding feast. Some of us will be thrown out.

I can only comment on a couple of thngs in a generalized way. I f one believes they can lose their salvation, then one must also believe they can earn it; or at least re-earn it after “losing it”. I cannot find an example of that in the Bible. then if that is played out to the end, then we could be a Christian, then not be a Christian and on down the road. We can be a Christian, decide we want to have some fun in some sin, then when the fun is over we can then become a Christian again until the next fun-sinful thing comes along…persue it thus becoming a nonChristian till the fun is over, then become a Christian again…that is ridiculous, but in theory that is exactly what could be done if one believes they can chose to lose their salvation; so rather than being dependenct on god, they are soley dependent on themselves and god is just sitting around waiting for you to come back. This would mean we need to remove all references to an apostate that the Bible teaches. I am not willing to buy into such a doctrine. But it does explain a lot of “so-called” Christian behaviors.

You are aboslutely corrwect that everyone will be judged according to their works, but for the Christian it refers to rewards and for the non-Christian it will determine the degree of hell they will be in.; otherwise if we are all judged according to our works in determining who is in heaven or hell, than all will be in hell because God said that the effect of breaking just on commandment has the effect of breaking them all. No amount of works can reverse that. So if one hold onto a doctrine of what I call the “balance of scale”, where one tries to do more good than bad and at the end if the balance is in favor of “good works”, then I am heaven bound, then is contrary to the teaching in the Bible.

I leave you with this thought from Romans 4 concerning works and wages.

Romans 4:1-8
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4*** Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. ***5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hello Everyone! Incl. Beth - Welcome to the Forum.

I have read 1st and 3rd page responses…

I just wanted to add: - No one has mentioned what Jesus Said to the disciples at the last supper, when He said, (words mine) 'Remain in me, so that the fathers love may abide in you…just so that I have obeyed my father and remain in His Love…"

Even though I have been on both sides of the denominational fence, I must say that this teaching, observing that Salvation is dependant on remaining in the Fathers Love, is quiet frankly KEY to Christian living.

Experience dictates me becomeing lazy and unfruitful in good works as a protestant and I questioned my own salvation if Im honest. I have come full circle. The Catholics have the truth on this matter. I dont want to get into a denominational discussion, this is not about that but Im just relaying my experience and opinion.

I profess to be Spirit filled and born again but that does not take presidence over the words of Christ. This is a really important point.

You say you do not want to get into a “denominational discussion”, but that is exactly what you did. Protestant is not a denomination as far as i know, but then again denominations mean nothing to God, only to men. If you were lazy and unfruitful, then you were not a Christian regardless of the “denomination”, for there is no such thing a Christian that does not produce the fruits of righteouness because God prepared them that a Christian would walk in them; so if that was you expperience, then you were not a Christian at that time. As far as Catholics having it right; i can’t coment because I don’t see things in this kind of view and I know little about what the Catholic church teaches except I have been told that and shown that having security in salvation is not one of their teachings and seems to be discouraged; I don’t understand this because the Bible is so clear on the topic, but if it is what they teach and being a Catholic means you believe that, then it will stand or fall on its own merits at the individual level.

All I know if it were up to me to hold onto my own salvtion, much les earn in in some manner; I would lose it everyday and I could never sustain it so I might as well just eat, drink and be merry for I would blow it everyday anyway.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi Beth, let me see if I can bring this debate into another spectrum. Did you get a chance to read post #9? Since you love the Scriptures, let’s talk about Scripture. I have posted 7 sets of Biblical verses, 3 of those sets of verses coming from our Lord directly. All of these sets of verses, which do not appear to be taken out of context, seem to mention that one can be lost even after having been saved. I invite you to read those verses, and then to pick up your Holy Bible and read the entire chapters I quoted, so that you can read them in context. Let me know what you think.

I have expressed what I think God teaches throughout this discussion. I will continue to pray for you. You are unable nor willing to even acknowledge your rudeness and I am not about to engage in anything theological with you because I do not believe anyone can randomly jump into a discusion, make the comments you did and be serious about anything concerning the Bible. Even the post above exposes your real intentions; so perhaps you can prey on someone else but I was not “born again” yesterday.

May God bless you!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

If one cannot lose their salvation, St. Paul would certainly not speak of “grafting again” as it would not be necessary. In fact, St. Paul clearly shows that one can be “cut off” if one does not “continue in His goodness.”

cut
2 Peter 2:20-22

Here, St. Peter speaks of the responsibility one has that comes with the knowledge of God. The sinner is compared to a dog returning to its vomit and is represented as one who “escaped the pollutions of the world” and then becomes “entangled in them and overcome.” It seems unlikely for St. Paul to speak of this if it was never meant to be an issue.

cut
Hebrews 10:26-31

St. Paul, again, speaking of the responsibility of knowing the truth. Ones who do not live in the truth are described as “adversaries” who “trampled the Son of God underfoot.” It again seems unlikely that St. Paul would be explaining this if salvation were not at stake.

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37

In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:

23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26

14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14

Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51

According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.

These are all comparisons to the truly regenerate versus those that are not. Concerning the grafted, this speaks of Israel, which God has only blinded for a while until the fullness of the gentiles comes, then He will remove the blindness, they will mourn over the murder of their Savior, He will given them a new heart, He will write the laws on their hearts and He will save them. Very concsistent with God’s plan and purpose of salvation.

The only reason a Christian will persevere is because of the work of the Holy Spirit of those without could never persevere and all would be lost.

 

[Danno2281]

I can only comment on a couple of thngs in a generalized way. I f one believes they can lose their salvation, then one must also believe they can earn it; or at least re-earn it after "losing it. (Nonsense! I need not be able to re-create a work of art in order to destroy it)I cannot find an example of that in the Bible.(Because that would make the Bible say what is untrue) then if that is played out to the end, then we could be a Christian, then not be a Christian and on down the road. We can be a Christian, decide we want to have some fun in some sin, then when the fun is over we can then become a Christian again until the next fun-sinful thing comes along…persue it thus becoming a nonChristian till the fun is over, then become a Christian again…that is ridiculous, but in theory that is exactly what could be done if one believes they can chose to lose their salvation; so rather than being dependenct on god, they are soley dependent on themselves and god is just sitting around waiting for you to come back.(Hmm… sounds like something Jesus taught in the parable called the Prodigal Son - for those who are sons) This would mean we need to remove all references to an apostate that the Bible teaches.(I fail to see the logical connection.) I am not willing to buy into such a doctrine. But it does explain a lot of “so-called” Christian behaviors. (But it is also what humans do whenever they sin - they jeopardize their salvation. Were I to commit adultery, would it mean that I would necessarily lose my salvation? Or is it of no account because I am one of the elect? Remember that you say below that breaking one commandment has the effect of breaking them all)
You are aboslutely corrwect that everyone will be judged according to their works, but for the Christian it refers to rewards and for the non-Christian it will determine the degree of hell they will be in.; otherwise if we are all judged according to our works in determining who is in heaven or hell, than all will be in hell because God said that the effect of breaking just on commandment has the effect of breaking them all. No amount of works can reverse that.(That teaching is found in Jas. 2:10. But in 5:20 he, in fact, talks about how to ‘reverse that,’ or “cover a multitude of sins.”) Yet So if one hold onto a doctrine of what I call the “balance of scale”, where one tries to do more good than bad and at the end if the balance is in favor of “good works”, then I am heaven bound, then is contrary to the teaching in the Bible.

I leave you with this thought from Romans 4 concerning works and wages.

Romans 4:1-8
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?* 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4*** Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. ***5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

And I leave you with this from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle James: “Faith without works is dead.” Jas.2:26.

 

[NotWorthy]

Rasing the veil is God revealing Himself; once He reveals Himself; only at that time is the sinner able to see hinself as God sees him and is able to see God how He really is. Without that realization, then no one would come to God. I am almost certain you have heard the term irristable grace’ this is a special grace that God gives to the elect or chosen and He is providential in revealing Himself to whom ever He choses. Because no one is able to resist HIs “purposed” will, then the believer will come and seek salvation which God had already purposed for that individual.

But you didn’t answer the question.

God raised the veil on Solomon and he was wiser than anyone else in the world. He received this “irresistible grace” just as you mentioned.

But what happened to Solomon?

 

[NotWorthy]

I can only comment on a couple of thngs in a generalized way. I f one believes they can lose their salvation, then one must also believe they can earn it; or at least re-earn it after “losing it”.

This is a wrong assumption, and Catholics don’t claim this.

Think of it like this. There is a ferry that takes people across a river filled with sharks. The ferry comes by every day at 12. I can’t get across without the ferry. But I can choose to get on the ferry or stay on this side of the river.

Jesus is the ferry. I can choose to ride with him across the river to Salvation, or I can choose to stay on the wrong side of the river.

But in any event, I can’t cross that river without him, just as I can’t go to heaven without him, but its still my choice.

 

[Beth_Martin]

And I leave you with this from the Holy Spirit through the Apostle James: “Faith without works is dead.” Jas.2:26.

Are you seeking any comment? Yes, it is true that someone proclaiming faith in Christ will not be fruitless as James points out and I pointed out earlier.

On the Prodigal son, must people do not see the fullness of the story. This has nothing to do with a son who was saved, left, then came back in repentance to be saved again. I provide you with this; as I think it is summarized best be a brilliant Pastor-teacher John MacArthur, whom you may or may not heard of.

The Central Lesson of the Prodigal Son
The picturesque descriptions in the parable are not provided to add multiple layers of meaning; they are cultural details that help us understand the story in the context of first-century agrarian village life. By understanding the context, the main point of the story comes to light.

This parable spreads itself across twenty-two verses in this pivotal chapter in Luke’s Gospel. With so much lavish coloring, dramatic pathos, and fine detail carefully woven into this word picture, it seems clear that the vividness of the parable is deliberately designed to highlight the parable’s central meaning. We’re expected to notice and make good sense of the personalities and plot turns in this amazing story.

Indeed, the context of Luke 15, with its theme of heavenly joy over earthly repentance, makes perfect sense of all the major features of the parable. The prodigal represents a typical sinner who comes to repentance. The father’s patience, love, generosity, and delight over the son’s return are clear and perfect emblems of divine grace. The prodigal’s heart change is a picture of what true repentance should look like. And the elder brother’s cold indifference—the real focal point of the story, as it turns out—is a vivid representation of the same evil hypocrisy Jesus was confronting in the hearts of the hostile scribes and Pharisees to whom He told the parable in the first place (Luke 15:2). They bitterly resented the sinners and tax collectors who drew near to Jesus (v. 1), and they tried to paper over their fleshly indignation with religious pretense. But their attitudes betrayed their unbelief and self-centeredness. Jesus’ parable ripped the mask off their hypocrisy.

This, then, is the central and culminating lesson of the parable: Jesus is pointing out the stark contrast between God’s own delight in the redemption of sinners and the Pharisees’ inflexible hostility toward those same sinners. Keeping that lesson fixed firmly in view, we can legitimately draw from the larger story (as Jesus unfolds it) several profound lessons about grace, forgiveness, repentance, and the heart of God toward sinners. Those elements are all so conspicuous in the parable that almost everyone should be able to recognize them.

Source:

I would suggest getting a copy of this book from ChristianBooks.com if you truly want to understand this parable in its fullness and how to apply it to your life as a Christian.
Click HERE

If for whatever reason you would like to get a copy of the book, but are unable because of finances; I would be more than blessed to have one delivered to you; I do have an account with ChristianBooks.com and can have any order shipped to an alternative address.

God bless!

Beth

 

[Danno2281]

A truly sad interpretation of the parable. The son is no evil hypocrite, and he is dearly loved as an obedient son by his father, and everything that the father has is his. He seeks justice rather than mercy, much like the laborers who came early to the vineyard, and he, like them, is to be rewarded for his efforts. The attempt of the pastor to demonize his righteousness is truly disheartening for a Christian. Please note that the father has nothing but praise for the relationship of the son to him - but he urges him to re-assess the relationship with his prodigal son, both his own relationship and his father’s.
Luke paints a far different story from the one this pastor teaches, and you might find that your re-reading of the passage will point this out even more clearly.

 

[Beth_Martin]

But you didn’t answer the question.

God raised the veil on Solomon and he was wiser than anyone else in the world. He received this “irresistible grace” just as you mentioned.

But what happened to Solomon?

I apologize because I was looking through the pages and saw that I did not address your question about Solomon although I am not sure what you are trying to get to. The story of Solomon is the story of many of the OT saints who were murderous, concubinious (new word), multiple wives…I mean look at what David did and God said David was a man after God’s own heart. It is a display of divine mercy on sinners. In the NT we need to only look at the Apostle Paul, who was the Hebrew of the Hebrews and concerning the law blamless and He persecuted; brought to justice true Christians…he watched and enjoyed the stoning to death of Stephen believing He was doing it for God, but what happened; divine intervention in all of these cases to give us, the people in the age of the church, examples of HIs mercy and the hope of eternal life through the Lord Jesus.

If you look at Scripture and see the very first thing that God said concerning Solomon; it speaks volumes about how He works.

2 Samuel 12:24 "Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and went in to her and lay with her; and she gave birth to a son, and he named him Solomon. ***Now the LORD loved him ***25 and sent {word} through Nathan the prophet, and he named him Jedidiah for the LORD’S sake.

Jedidiah = “beloved of Jehovah”

Thus the Lord set His love upon Solomon before Solomon was able to do anything. Later on Solomon was disobedient to God; was Solomon then lost? NO, but did God do what He said He does to all of His children in Hebews, which is to discipline? Yes; but this also demonstrates the closeness God had with Israel as a nation because not only was Solomon to be disciplined, but the entire nation was going to suffer for his disobedience.

***1 Kings 11:9-13
9 So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded. 11 Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant. 12 Nevertheless I will not do it in your days, for the sake of your father David; I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However I will not tear away the whole kingdom; I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of my servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.” ***

But despite his disobedience he is witht he Lord.
***1 Kings 11:41-43
41 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42 And the period that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. 43 Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place. ***

 

[Beth_Martin]

This is a wrong assumption, and Catholics don’t claim this.

Think of it like this. There is a ferry that takes people across a river filled with sharks. The ferry comes by every day at 12. I can’t get across without the ferry. But I can choose to get on the ferry or stay on this side of the river.

Jesus is the ferry. I can choose to ride with him across the river to Salvation, or I can choose to stay on the wrong side of the river.

But in any event, I can’t cross that river without him, just as I can’t go to heaven without him, but its still my choice.

I based my assumption on the posts on these pages. Someone gave the example of the Prdofigal Son as an example of loosing and regining their salvation; so it you take that out to the end, then as I said, you can choses to lose, gain, lose & gain and enjoy the sin in between.

If anyone choses to believe the Bible teaches that you can lose salvation, then have at it. I disagree with that view and interpretation.

God Bless!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

This is a wrong assumption, and Catholics don’t claim this.

Think of it like this. There is a ferry that takes people across a river filled with sharks. The ferry comes by every day at 12. I can’t get across without the ferry. But I can choose to get on the ferry or stay on this side of the river.

Jesus is the ferry. I can choose to ride with him across the river to Salvation, or I can choose to stay on the wrong side of the river.

But in any event, I can’t cross that river without him, just as I can’t go to heaven without him, but its still my choice.

So how do you lose your salvation once you took the ferry across to the right side?

 

[Beth_Martin]

A truly sad interpretation of the parable. The son is no evil hypocrite, and he is dearly loved as an obedient son by his father, and everything that the father has is his. He seeks justice rather than mercy, much like the laborers who came early to the vineyard, and he, like them, is to be rewarded for his efforts. The attempt of the pastor to demonize his righteousness is truly disheartening for a Christian. Please note that the father has nothing but praise for the relationship of the son to him - but he urges him to re-assess the relationship with his prodigal son, both his own relationship and his father’s.
Luke paints a far different story from the one this pastor teaches, and you might find that your re-reading of the passage will point this out even more clearly.

You do realize the astor is speaking of the second son who is similar to the hypocritical pharasees to whom Jesus is speaking to? If you canot see the paraelle to the older son the the Pharasees, then there is nothing more to say. The entire chapter is a contrast between the repentent sinner and self righteous hypocrite. Jesus was smacking the faces of the pharasees for they were responsible and entrusted to all the things of God; yet they were stubborn and stiffnecks, just like the second son.

Luke paints a far different story from the one you teach, and you might find that your re-reading of the passage, in the context of whom Jesus was speaking and what was know about the pharasees, will point this out even more clearly.

May God bless you!
Beth

 

[belmontmac]

I saw this last year on CAF, seemed appropriate here.

Heaven is an island out in the middle of a huge sea. It is the best place in the universe. You want to go there. There is no way on your own to get there - you can’t swim, you can’t sail, you can’t fly.

God out of love invites you to join Him in Heaven by sending us the “SS Salvation” captained by Jesus. We can’t ever afford the cost of the ticket. It’s OK, because Jesus bought and paid for it and he gives us the ticket on the SS Salvation for free. We still have to make the decision to get on.

Being on the boat though, does not mean you are getting off in Heaven. It just means you have the means to get there - for the boat has to sail. Like every good captain, Jesus has rules that we have to follow if we want to stay on the boat. It is not a cruise, it is a working vessel. Sometimes the work is rewarding and sometimes it is pain, but it is what the Captain asks us to do to stay on the boat.

If you don’t follow the rules, if you don’t show Jesus you want to be in Heaven, you don’t get to disembark when it docks. You get to go to another, more “tropical” island.

It is not a prison ship either. You are free to get off at any time. But even if you decide to get off, your ticket is still good (i.e. your “salvation” is still valid) but you have to make the decision to get back on the boat and follow the rules

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you seeking any comment? Yes, it is true that someone proclaiming faith in Christ will not be fruitless as James points out and I pointed out earlier.

On the Prodigal son, must people do not see the fullness of the story. This has nothing to do with a son who was saved, left, then came back in repentance to be saved again. I provide you with this; as I think it is summarized best be a brilliant Pastor-teacher John MacArthur, whom you may or may not heard of.

The Central Lesson of the Prodigal Son
The picturesque descriptions in the parable are not provided to add multiple layers of meaning; they are cultural details that help us understand the story in the context of first-century agrarian village life. By understanding the context, the main point of the story comes to light.

This parable spreads itself across twenty-two verses in this pivotal chapter in Luke’s Gospel. With so much lavish coloring, dramatic pathos, and fine detail carefully woven into this word picture, it seems clear that the vividness of the parable is deliberately designed to highlight the parable’s central meaning. We’re expected to notice and make good sense of the personalities and plot turns in this amazing story.

Indeed, the context of Luke 15, with its theme of heavenly joy over earthly repentance, makes perfect sense of all the major features of the parable. The prodigal represents a typical sinner who comes to repentance. The father’s patience, love, generosity, and delight over the son’s return are clear and perfect emblems of divine grace. The prodigal’s heart change is a picture of what true repentance should look like. And the elder brother’s cold indifference—the real focal point of the story, as it turns out—is a vivid representation of the same evil hypocrisy Jesus was confronting in the hearts of the hostile scribes and Pharisees to whom He told the parable in the first place (Luke 15:2). They bitterly resented the sinners and tax collectors who drew near to Jesus (v. 1), and they tried to paper over their fleshly indignation with religious pretense. But their attitudes betrayed their unbelief and self-centeredness. Jesus’ parable ripped the mask off their hypocrisy.

This, then, is the central and culminating lesson of the parable: Jesus is pointing out the stark contrast between God’s own delight in the redemption of sinners and the Pharisees’ inflexible hostility toward those same sinners. Keeping that lesson fixed firmly in view, we can legitimately draw from the larger story (as Jesus unfolds it) several profound lessons about grace, forgiveness, repentance, and the heart of God toward sinners. Those elements are all so conspicuous in the parable that almost everyone should be able to recognize them.

Source:

I would suggest getting a copy of this book from ChristianBooks.com if you truly want to understand this parable in its fullness and how to apply it to your life as a Christian.
Click HERE

If for whatever reason you would like to get a copy of the book, but are unable because of finances; I would be more than blessed to have one delivered to you; I do have an account with ChristianBooks.com and can have any order shipped to an alternative address.

God bless!

Beth

Beth, I am familiar with Mr. McArthur. He is not one very friendly to Catholic teaching.

In regards to the Pharisee’s indifference and Mr. McArthur’s contention that this is the central point of the parable, have to disagree. It is a point to the parable, and a jab at the Pharisee’s who posited the question in the first place of Jesus eating with sinners, but you have to look at ALL THREE parables in Luke’s 15th chapter to get the main theme of repentance and joy.

The first two parables, which are obviously tied to the third, all hinge on repentance and joy - actually it could better be termed, "salvation lost, salvation regained, and the joy in returning to the flock.

 

[NotWorthy]

I apologize because I was looking through the pages and saw that I did not address your question about Solomon although I am not sure what you are trying to get to. The story of Solomon is the story of many of the OT saints who were murderous, concubinious (new word), multiple wives…I mean look at what David did and God said David was a man after God’s own heart. It is a display of divine mercy on sinners. In the NT we need to only look at the Apostle Paul, who was the Hebrew of the Hebrews and concerning the law blamless and He persecuted; brought to justice true Christians…he watched and enjoyed the stoning to death of Stephen believing He was doing it for God, but what happened; divine intervention in all of these cases to give us, the people in the age of the church, examples of HIs mercy and the hope of eternal life through the Lord Jesus.

If you look at Scripture and see the very first thing that God said concerning Solomon; it speaks volumes about how He works.

2 Samuel 12:24 "Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and went in to her and lay with her; and she gave birth to a son, and he named him Solomon. ***Now the LORD loved him ***25 and sent {word} through Nathan the prophet, and he named him Jedidiah for the LORD’S sake.

Jedidiah = “beloved of Jehovah”

Thus the Lord set His love upon Solomon before Solomon was able to do anything. Later on Solomon was disobedient to God; was Solomon then lost? NO, but did God do what He said He does to all of His children in Hebews, which is to discipline? Yes; but this also demonstrates the closeness God had with Israel as a nation because not only was Solomon to be disciplined, but the entire nation was going to suffer for his disobedience.

***1 Kings 11:9-13
9 So the Lord became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the Lord God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the Lord had commanded. 11 Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant. 12 Nevertheless I will not do it in your days, for the sake of your father David; I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However I will not tear away the whole kingdom; I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of my servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.” ***

But despite his disobedience he is witht he Lord.
***1 Kings 11:41-43
41 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42 And the period that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. 43 Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place. ***

Very good, and that is my point. You agree that Solomon had the veil lifted from his eyes, and yet he still sunk into the sin of idolatry, a sin that he never repented.

The other saints you mentioned, David and Paul both repented of their sin, but its never indicated that Solomon did. Instead, it seems that Solomon lost the very gift (that of wisdom) that God bestowed on him.

 

[NotWorthy]

I based my assumption on the posts on these pages. Someone gave the example of the Prdofigal Son as an example of loosing and regining their salvation; so it you take that out to the end, then as I said, you can choses to lose, gain, lose & gain and enjoy the sin in between.

If anyone choses to believe the Bible teaches that you can lose salvation, then have at it. I disagree with that view and interpretation.

God Bless!!

Beth

Hmmm…

The Prodigal Son gained his inheritance, a term that Paul uses when we become children of God. The Prodigal Son was “Saved” to use a term we are both familiar with. The son threw his salvation away. If he would have died while living in that cesspool, he would not have gone to heaven.

But as the Father says, “My son was dead and is alive AGAIN!” To be alive AGAIN, one must have been alive before.