Salvation, definition:

[dcdurel]

The Church teaches that salvation is the central point of the Gospel. And since the Church teaches that the Gospel is the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline”
then salvation must be one of the the most important teachings of the Catholic faith.

I believe most Catholics, and of course even more Protestants don’t know the defintion of salvation, because we have all been misled to ignore the Popes. I am beginning to realize that we can’t even understand the basics, such as a simple catechism, without studing what the Popes are teaching.

Now, since Jesus came down from heaven for our salvation, then surely this is one of the most important teachings of the faith.
My belief is that because Catholics in this country have been led to ignore the teachings of the Popes, then we don’t even know what salvation is, because we need the Popes even to understand the the catechism.

Do any Catholics know what Salvation is?

 

[Liberian]

DC Durel,

The reason there is so much confusion over the term “salvation” is that it has three or four different meanings. The root meaning is to be “saved” or rescued from something. But what? That is where the differences lie.

Our process of salvation starts at baptism, when we are saved from original sin. That is the first definition of salvation, the initial justification that is wholly unmerited by us.

During our time on earth we may be saved from various particular sins through various means. C.S. Lewis wrote in Screwtape Letters about a (fictitious) person who was saved from the temptations of aspiring to high political office by a stronger liking for onions and garlic. This also is a form of salvation, though not used so commonly.

At the end of our lives, God judges us and decides whether we will go to Heaven or to Hell. Being saved from Hell is the other most common use of the term “salvation.” It is achieved by God’s grace but requires our cooperation, as the Catechism teaches.

Most Evangelicals equate the salvation from original sin with the salvation from Hell. This results in tremendous amounts of confusion when trying to discuss the subject with them.

• Liberian

 

[dcdurel]

Lets get more specific. At mass we say about Jesus, “for us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven”

Lets restrict salvation to the reason Jesus came down from heaven. Lets restrict the meaning of salvation to why Jesus died for us.

This is the central point of the Gospel.
I will venture to guess that 99% of Catholics don’t know the what the central point of the Gospel, “salvation”, really means.

Thus, 99% of Catholics in this country don’t know the primary meaning of salvation, which is the central point of the Gospel.
And 100% of Catholics, especially Catholic scholars and bishops, in this country don’t know the content of the Gospel, which the Church teaches is the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline”

Two of the most important truths, and all theologians, scholars and bishops are totally lost.
Yet Vatican II says through God’s “revelation that those religious truths which are by their nature accessible to human reason can be known by all men with ease, with solid certitude and with no trace of error, even in this present state of the human race.”

**If these most important truths are NOT known with solid certitude and with no trace of error, then something is dreadfully wrong. **

And this is a very serious problem, because Vatican II teaches that the primary duty of priests is the proclamation of the Gospel to all. If the priests are not taught specifically what the content of the Gospel is and what the central point of the Gospel, salvation, means then we are in serious trouble. And the total lack of knowledge on these two truths are the reason so few Catholics practice their faith today.

The ONLY solution to this problem is to go to the Popes. Don’t even go near Theologians and Catholic scholars. They are one of the major causes of this problem. The more you study their writings, the more you will be misled. In this area they are extremely dangerous for they are totally misled. Even the Baltimore Catechism got missed the primary meaning of salvation.

It is only the Popes who have the correct understanding.
Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Evangelii Nuntiandi starts off correcting this problem. Pope John Paul II in Mission of the Redeemer, Veritatis Splendor, etc. repeats Pope Paul VI teaching on salvation. The Catechism teaches how Catholics are to hand down the Gospel, and in doing so teaches what it means by the Gospel. And the General Directory for Catechesis, authorized by Pope JP II really gives a more overall view of what the Gospel is and how to proclaim it, and teaches even more emphatically the definition of salvation given by Pope Paul VI.

I am trying to get Catholics to start putting their trust in what the Popes teach, and to stop trusting Catholic scholars.
Are their encyclicals difficult. Yes. But mostly because we are so ignorant of the truth in these areas, that the teachings are new to us, and we are not familiar with them and at first we will think the Popes are way wrong. They are not wrong. Study before the Blessed Sacrament and ask God’s help. It is only through humility and accepting the fact the ONLY the Popes are the representatives of Christ on earth that we can learn the truth in these matters.

 

[thistle]

Thus, 99% of Catholics in this country don’t know the primary meaning of salvation, which is the central point of the Gospel.
And 100% of Catholics, especially Catholic scholars and bishops, in this country don’t know the content of the Gospel, which the Church teaches is the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline”

As you are obviously the only Catholic apart from the Pope out of the 1.2 billion alive who knows the answer to these two questions please give us the answer.
So we shouldn’t listen to bishops, priests, theologians etc but you know everything. Sorry. You and the Pope know everything. Dismissing everyone except the Pope is just sheer nonsense.

I guess you don’t know much about humility though!

 

[FightingFat]

As you are obviously the only Catholic apart from the Pope out of the 1.2 billion alive who knows the answer to these two questions please give us the answer.
So we shouldn’t listen to bishops, priests, theologians etc but you know everything. Sorry. You and the Pope know everything. Dismissing everyone except the Pope is just sheer nonsense.

I guess you don’t know much about humility though!

 

[HailMary]

The Church teaches that salvation is the central point of the Gospel. And since the Church teaches that the Gospel is the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline”
then salvation must be one of the the most important teachings of the Catholic faith.

I believe most Catholics, and of course even more Protestants don’t know the defintion of salvation, because we have all been misled to ignore the Popes. I am beginning to realize that we can’t even understand the basics, such as a simple catechism, without studing what the Popes are teaching.

Now, since Jesus came down from heaven for our salvation, then surely this is one of the most important teachings of the faith.
My belief is that because Catholics in this country have been led to ignore the teachings of the Popes, then we don’t even know what salvation is, because we need the Popes even to understand the the catechism.

Do any Catholics know what Salvation is?

Salvation is the deliverance from being eternally Hell-bound due to sin. Keep in mind that Salvation is a salvation is a 3-dimensional reality with
past [Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8],
present [1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15],
and future [Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15] components.

 

[Pug]

Salvation. For me, the first pictures that float into my head are about the whole human race, and not me individually. I know, usually people answer about individual salvation, but for me, God had this plan for mankind, sort of like there was the mystery about Christ, and God finally unveiled the whole shebang.

Why don’t you give a link to the document that you most would like to encourage people to read. I do agree with one of your points. Papal encyclicals and exhortations are worth reading, and they can be dense or difficult to process.

People who can’t read and can’t visit the pope can hear the truth too. I’m not worried on that score.

 

[dcdurel]

As you are obviously the only Catholic apart from the Pope out of the 1.2 billion alive who knows the answer to these two questions please give us the answer.
So we shouldn’t listen to bishops, priests, theologians etc but you know everything. Sorry. You and the Pope know everything. Dismissing everyone except the Pope is just sheer nonsense.
I guess you don’t know much about humility though!

It is more humble to admit that we are all ignorant and NEED the Popes who alone are the representatives of Christ on earth. Jesus made Peter and his successors FIRST in teaching authority. Theologians have absolutely NO authority to authentically interpret the word of God.
You forget that theology is only secondary to the Gospel. If theologians don’t know the Gospel, then their theology will be a disaster. Because theology is defined as the study of God, or faith seeking understanding. In both cases, theology is the study of what God has revealed. But, all revelation is summed up in Jesus, to whom the Father revealed everything. And Jesus revealed everything to His apostles. And His apostles handed down the teachings of ALL this revelation in the Gospel they taught and preached. Thus, if theology is not based ultimately on this Gospel, then it is corrupt. Thus, if you don’t know the content of the Gospel, your theology will be in grave error. So again, we MUST know the content of the Gospel to understand the basics of the Catholic faith, to understand what God has revealed.

And bishops have authentically interpret the word of God when they are in union with the Popes. How do they know if their teaching is authentic, unless they understand what the Popes teach?

Your attitude proves exactly what the error is. The error in this country is that the teachings of the Popes come last, and if we don’t understand them, then we ignore them.
If the bishops and theologians were doing what was right, then they should have inculturated in every Catholic the idea that the Popes come first, and that the Popes are essential to understanding the Catholic faith today.

Your attitude is the exact attitude of almost every Catholic in this country, and of course it is the exact attitude of every Protestant. It is rebellion against Jesus. Jesus makes the Popes FIRST in authority, especially teaching authority.
OK, you think you don’t need the Popes. Then tell me exactly what the apostles taught and preached when Jesus told them to proclaim the Gospel.

Remember, the Church says that this Gospel is the “source of ALL saving truth and moral discipline”

Thus it is certainly obligatory to know exactly what the content of this Gospel is.

Second, we can easily learn the content of this Gospel. Vatican II teaches in Dei Verbum

"it is through His revelation that those religious truths which are by their nature accessible to human reason can be known by all men with ease, with solid certitude and with no trace of error, even in this present state of the human race."

Therefore, this Gospel can be known by all men with ease and solid certitude and with no trace of error.

Third, you think all you have to do is learn what the bishops teach, or the theologians teach, or the priests teach and you can bypass the Popes.

OK, then please tell me what which one of these theologians, bishops and priests can explain exactly the content of Gospel. And remember, the Church teaches it is the duty of all Catholics to hand down this Gospel. It is not optional.

Remember, the Church teaches this Gospel is **“the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.” **

So, if all you need is the bishops or theologians, and you don’t need the Popes to learn the content of the Gospel, the please find a single one of these theologians or bishops who can explain it to me and who is in agreement with what ALL the Popes have taught on this subject.
Good luck.

 

[thistle]

It is more humble to admit that we are all ignorant and NEED the Popes who alone are the representatives of Christ on earth. Jesus made Peter and his successors FIRST in teaching authority. Theologians have absolutely NO authority to authentically interpret the word of God.
You forget that theology is only secondary to the Gospel. If theologians don’t know the Gospel, then their theology will be a disaster. Because theology is defined as the study of God, or faith seeking understanding. In both cases, theology is the study of what God has revealed. But, all revelation is summed up in Jesus, to whom the Father revealed everything. And Jesus revealed everything to His apostles. And His apostles handed down the teachings of ALL this revelation in the Gospel they taught and preached. Thus, if theology is not based ultimately on this Gospel, then it is corrupt. Thus, if you don’t know the content of the Gospel, your theology will be in grave error. So again, we MUST know the content of the Gospel to understand the basics of the Catholic faith, to understand what God has revealed.

And bishops have authentically interpret the word of God when they are in union with the Popes. How do they know if their teaching is authentic, unless they understand what the Popes teach?

Your attitude proves exactly what the error is. The error in this country is that the teachings of the Popes come last, and if we don’t understand them, then we ignore them.
If the bishops and theologians were doing what was right, then they should have inculturated in every Catholic the idea that the Popes come first, and that the Popes are essential to understanding the Catholic faith today.

Your attitude is the exact attitude of almost every Catholic in this country, and of course it is the exact attitude of every Protestant. It is rebellion against Jesus. Jesus makes the Popes FIRST in authority, especially teaching authority.
OK, you think you don’t need the Popes. Then tell me exactly what the apostles taught and preached when Jesus told them to proclaim the Gospel.

Remember, the Church says that this Gospel is the “source of ALL saving truth and moral discipline”

Thus it is certainly obligatory to know exactly what the content of this Gospel is.

Second, we can easily learn the content of this Gospel. Vatican II teaches in Dei Verbum

"it is through His revelation that those religious truths which are by their nature accessible to human reason can be known by all men with ease, with solid certitude and with no trace of error, even in this present state of the human race."

Therefore, this Gospel can be known by all men with ease and solid certitude and with no trace of error.

Third, you think all you have to do is learn what the bishops teach, or the theologians teach, or the priests teach and you can bypass the Popes.

OK, then please tell me what which one of these theologians, bishops and priests can explain exactly the content of Gospel. And remember, the Church teaches it is the duty of all Catholics to hand down this Gospel. It is not optional.

Remember, the Church teaches this Gospel is **“the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.” **

So, if all you need is the bishops or theologians, and you don’t need the Popes to learn the content of the Gospel, the please find a single one of these theologians or bishops who can explain it to me and who is in agreement with what ALL the Popes have taught on this subject.
Good luck.

I’m curious. Are you just young and think you know it all or do you have some serious problem.
Yes it is humble for a person to admit they are ignorant about something. Unfortunately you are telling 1.2 billion Catholics they are all ignorant and I’m assuming you don’t personally know all the Catholics in the world.
That is is not humility. You are judging others and that is the result of pride. I think you should sort yourself out first before spouting off at others.

As you don’t think any priests know anything or believe what they say does that mean you make appointments with the Pope to hear your confession?

 

[dcdurel]

Salvation. For me, the first pictures that float into my head are about the whole human race, and not me individually. I know, usually people answer about individual salvation, but for me, God had this plan for mankind, sort of like there was the mystery about Christ, and God finally unveiled the whole shebang.
Why don’t you give a link to the document that you most would like to encourage people to read. I do agree with one of your points. Papal encyclicals and exhortations are worth reading, and they can be dense or difficult to process.
People who can’t read and can’t visit the pope can hear the truth too. I’m not worried on that score.

 Vatican II wanted a renewal of evangelization.  Evangelizaton is the proclamation of the whole Gospel.  Catechesis, or teaching the faith, of which the Catechism is a "sure norm for teaching the faith"  is only one part of the proclamation of the Gospel.  Yes, it is an essential part and the main part, but it is still only a part.

What is also missing today is the first part, the initial proclamation of the Gospel, centered on the meaning of salvation. Pope Paul VI, who everyone rejected, is the key to understanding the Gospel. It is ironic that dissidents reject him because he was a Pope and especially because of his teachings on contraception and many orthodox Catholics ignore him because he permitted changes in the liturgy, though he permitted no errors to be taught. So everyone tends to reject him. Yet, he was the representative of Christ on earth. He is the foundation for correcting the errors that are so prevalent today. If everyone had listed to him when he wrote his encyclical “Evangelii Nuntiandi” then we would not have the problems in this country. This encyclical describes evangalization in the modern world and the content of evangelization. Since evangelization is the proclamation of the Gospel, then this encyclical tells the content of the Gospel and the basic parts, such as the central point of the Gospel, which is salvation, and the primary meaning of salvation. This encyclical clears up the false understanding of the word Gospel that we have had in this country for over 100 years.
One problem is that it is detailed and long and detailed and most people give up reading it all. The second problem is that when people finally understand what he means by proclaiming the Gospel, they think he is wrong because of their false understanding of the Gospel. They think that he can’t possibly be right. And third, he gives a definition of salvation that most of us have never heard before. Unless we understand that Jesus made the popes infallible when they teach, even if we think they are bad popes, and unless we put our faith in Jesus and persever
in learning from the popes, then we will fall back in our error.
I will admit that I was confused when I finally read this encyclical. I didn’t reject it. But, I didn’t fully accept it, because he seemed to be so wrong in what he meant by proclaiming the Gospel. I had never heard this understanding before by anyone else.
But I was intrigued by his definition of salvation. I had never really heard it put like this before and so clearly. And it made sense.

 

[dcdurel]

To understand what he meant by the word Gospel, I studied ONLY what the other Popes taught or authorized, such as the Catechism. The Catechism on page 6 or 7 tells how all Catholics are to hand down the Gospel. It seemed to give the exact same understanding that Pope Paul taught. I was still confused because I had NEVER heard this understanding before. Then I read some of Pope John Paul II encyclicals. Again, he used the word Gospel, the same way the Catechism and Pope Paul VI used the word Gospel. I had never in my life heard the word Gospel used in this way. I began to realize that my understanding must be wrong. But I still couldn’t understand what the Popes meant. I studied the wonderful document, the General Directory for Catechesis which was authorized and promoted by John Paul II. This is not just about teaching the faith, (catechesis), but it gives an overall view of evangelization (the proclamation of the Gospel) and thus it explains the intitial proclamation and the center of that proclamation, which is salvation, and then which follows, which is catechesis. In other words, it gives an overall view of the Church’s primary mission. Then Pope John Paul II “Mission of the Redeemer” repeated over and over the same meaning of salvation that Pope Paul gave. In fact, he even said that the primary meaning of evangelization itself is salvation as Pope Paul VI defined it.
So I looked up other past Popes and how they used the word Gospel. Again, they all agreed. I had never heard this before, by any theologian, by any scholar, by anyone.
I still didn’t understand.
And I had long ago realized that the teachings in basic Catechisms, did NOT come from the bible, but were handed down directly from the apostles. Catechisms simply are a written form of what the apostles taught.
The catechisms quote scripture, not as the original source of the teachings, but to illuminate the teaching and as a witness to the teaching. All the teachings were handed down to the apostles first, from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, before a word of the Gospel was written in scripture. I already new that when the early Christians taught the Catholic faith, they did so by explaining the articles of the creed, the sacraments, the commandments and prayer. Even with this understanding it took me forever with hours of prayer before the Blessed Sacrament before I finally understood.
So, it is these documents that I mentioned that are the clearest source of what the Gospel means and what it means to proclaim the Gospel. One key point that I will help you with, is that when the Church says “Gospel” she means everything the APOSTLES learned from Jesus and handed down, where as the false teaching is that it is only the WRITTEN words and deeds of Jesus. And the apostles NEVER first proclaimed the Gospel by reading the Gospels then giving an explanation of them. They taught the hierarchy of truths. See the General Directory for Catechesis. Also learn the Catechism’s definition of Catechesis. Remember, the apostles themselves taught the faith this way.
Now everything makes so much more sense. It makes more sense now when the Church teaches that at mass Jesus carries on the work of salvation. Now I fully understand what the bible means when it says that you shall call Him Jesus, for He will save men from their sins.
The primary meaning is NOT that Jesus just opened the gates of heaven, or just reconciled us back to God, or just that He justifies us. These things are true, but not the primary meaning of salvation.

Are these encyclicals difficutl?  Yes.  But 9 divided by 3 is difficult even to an intelligent adult if he has never been taught basic math, if he has never been taught his multiplication and division tables. 

These encyclicals are difficult because we have never been taught the basics, and because much of what we were taught was wrong.   If we can spend hours watching TV or reading magazines or books, then we can spend hours learning the truths from the representatives of Christ on earth, the Popes.

 

[dcdurel]

Yes it is humble for a person to admit they are ignorant about something. Unfortunately you are telling 1.2 billion Catholics they are all ignorant and I’m assuming you don’t personally know all the Catholics in the world.
That is is not humility. You are judging others and that is the result of pride. I think you should sort yourself out first before spouting off at others.

I thought the Popes were wrong for years. That was pride. I though I could just learn from other scholars who could summarize everything and that I did not need the Popes. That is pride. I thought since I knew the Catechism, then I knew it all, that is pride. It is humility when you give up on your own understanding and submit to the Popes, because Jesus made them first in authority.

As you don’t think any priests know anything or believe what they say does that mean you make appointments with the Pope to hear your confession?

Actually all Catholics, especially priests, know the content of the Gospel. They simply don’t recognize this content as “the Gospel”. The result is that the most important teachings are ignored. That is why so few go to confession.

It is not the fault of priests. It is the fault of all Catholics who have ignore the Popes, and **we have all ignored or rejected the Popes teachings at one time or another. **
Anyone who says they have not ignored the Pope’s teachings are lying. Did you know anyone who studies Evangelii Nuntiandi until they understand it fully. Do seminaries give a course on teaching Evangelii Nuntiandi?
Yet, isn’t the primary duty of all Catholics to proclaim the Gospel. If they admit they don’t know exactly what it means to proclaim the Gospel, then wouldn’t it be humility to admit it and learn from the infallible popes who have never taught error, even if they don’t like the pope. If the primary duty of priests the “proclamation of the Gospel to all”, then wouldn’t you think the semiaries would spend at least a semester on teaching this document and the General Directory for Catechesis. How in the world can you proclaim the Gospel if you don’t know what the Popes teach on the Gospel. The Popes write these encyclicals especially because of the errors of Catholics. They are trying to teach us the truth. They are trying to clear up our misunderstanding.
The General Directory for Catechesis was promulgated by Pope John Paul II especially because of errors by all Catholics. It was written for all pastors, and everyone else who teaches teaches the faith, including religious education teachers, etc. It makes extensive use of the teachings of Evangelii Nuntiandi and Pope John Paul II’s teachings in clearing up problems. How many seminaries spend sufficient time teaching and explaining this valuable document?
I would love to hear of any seminaries that give at least a semester to these two documents. Remember, that all theology is simply studing what God has revealed. Since the Gospel that the apostles preached and taught is the “summary of all saving truth and moral discipline”, then the only way to know exactly what God has revealed is by knowning the content of the Gospel. Thus, there is no way of knowing what theology is false or true unless the content of the Gospel is known. That is the criteria the Church uses. The Church starts from the Gospel that was handed down and builds from there. The Church does not start from scripture then develope theology. Protestants and dissidents do that, and that is why Protestant theologians agree on nothing.

Now again. Please give me a reference for any Bishop or theologian or Catholic scholar who can explain what the Church means by “proclaim the Gospel” and that is in conformity with what the Popes teach.

Until you do, I will continue to make the assertion that we are all ignorant on the most essential and basic teachings because we have all been misled to ignore the Popes and that because of this so few Catholics practice their faith today.

The solution to all our problems is serious study and prayer on what the Popes have been teaching to clear up these problems. The Popes teach that the transformation of society can only be brought about by the proclamation of the Gospel. How can we proclaim the Gospel if we don’t know the meaning of central teaching of the Gospel, salvation, and don’t know the content of the Gospel?
Therefore I am making the suggestion that all Catholics, not just scholars, but all Catholics, especially priests, study these documents by the Popes over and over with lots of prayer. After about a a few months or so, they begin to make sense, and it is wonderfully enlightening. For the first time the Catholic faith will make more sense and you will have at least an idea of how to proclaim the Gospel and transform society.

 

[Verita]

dcdurel, I think you are being a bit extreme. The Popes are not the only representatives of Christ on Earth. Every Bishop and Priest serves as his representative as well. Priest stand at the altar “In persona Christi” at every mass. And in a way we are all representatives of Christ to our fellow man. This is not a position the Pope occupies alone. The Pope enjoys a special gift of infallibility but so do the Bishops when in agreement. A council of Bishops has just as much infallibility as the Pope as we’ve seen through the ages. Furthermore, the Pope can be wrong. They are only infallible when speaking to the whole Church definetively on the subject of faith and morals. When they are teaching as a bishop and as a man, they can most definetly be wrong. In fact, the was a Pope John XXIII (or some number close to that) who taught falsely that no one will see the Beatific Vision until after the Judgement, even saints. He was a validly ordained Pope who taught heresy. It is good to look to the Popes for instruction in the Catholic faith, but it is wrong to look to them as a sort of source of all truth.

Let me ask you, dcdurel, since you have so obviously studied the writings of the Popes and the Bible and feel confident that you can scold others for not doing the same, what is the message of the Gospel? I can tell you what it is. But I’m curious first to hear what you say it is, since you know better than all those ignorant Catholics out there. Give a straight answer. What is the gospel message and what is salvation?

 

[Pug]

What is also missing today is the first part, the initial proclamation of the Gospel, centered on the meaning of salvation.

Since I am on an RCIA team, I’ll answer this part from that perspective. The process is divided into stages and the first stage ought to have an initial proclamation and a time of inquiry before entry into the catechumenate. You’ve got me though, since that stage is rather invisible. But my point is that it is known that it is supposed to be done. So there is cause for good cheer on this point. Even the ICEL knows it, since they are partly responsible for the RCIA book. From an absurd, joking standpoint, you can’t beat that. (I don’t usually joke that in that manner, but I thought it might help. Ignore joke if unhelpful).

Pope Paul VI, who everyone rejected

I’ve never heard this, or, at least, thought about it. Of course, I have read humanae vitae. But I haven’t read his other stuff, mostly because I still haven’t read all of JP2’s stuff, which is where I started. Note that JP2 seems to like PVI well enough, since he recalled his work in his first encyclical, uh, redemptor hominis or however that is spelled.

One problem is that it is detailed and long and detailed and most people give up reading it all. The second problem is that when people finally understand what he means by proclaiming the Gospel, they think he is wrong because of their false understanding of the Gospel. They think that he can’t possibly be right. And third, he gives a definition of salvation that most of us have never heard before. Unless we understand that Jesus made the popes infallible when they teach, even if we think they are bad popes, and unless we put our faith in Jesus and persever
in learning from the popes, then we will fall back in our error.

I’ve never had the problem of hearing something that sounded bizarre in an encyclical or apostolic exhortation. It always seems to fit everything I’ve heard before. Are you trying to intrigue me enough to spend a few days reading it? I swear, I’ll put it on my list, but the list is so long…

What could he possibly have said that is so odd? My sole guess would be the concept of how dignified man is, how Jesus elevated mankind up, the image of God, partakers of the divine nature, adoption as sons, stuff like that, all connected to the Word became flesh, Son of God became man. Maybe that would seem odd in this modern world where the dignity of man is hopelessly ignored. Oh, or that difficult word kerygma.

So…Well…come on, surely you’re dying to share the gospel with us…you are, after all, mandated to do so…I’m waiting. http://forum.rscnet.org/images/smilies/static.gifLiberty to captives, good news to the poor, a year of favor from the Lord! The kingdom of God is at hand! Preach it! (okay, I’ve gone insane)

 

[dcdurel]

dcdurel, I think you are being a bit extreme. The Popes are not the only representatives of Christ on Earth. Every Bishop and Priest serves as his representative as well. Priest stand at the altar “In persona Christi” at every mass. And in a way we are all representatives of Christ to our fellow man. This is not a position the Pope occupies alone. The Pope enjoys a special gift of infallibility but so do the Bishops when in agreement.
A council of Bishops has just as much infallibility as the Pope as we’ve seen through the ages.

How do you know if the bishops are in agreement, unless you know what the Popes teach, or unless the Popes give their approval to what the bishops teach. Vatican II makes it clear that the bishops are infallible only at certain times
in history, such as during general councils, or if the Popes approve their works, such as the Catechism. The rest of the time they are not infallible.

Furthermore, the Pope can be wrong. They are only infallible when speaking to the whole Church definetively on the subject of faith and morals. When they are teaching as a bishop and as a man, they can most definetly be wrong. In fact, the was a Pope John XXIII (or some number close to that) who taught falsely that no one will see the Beatific Vision until after the Judgement, even saints. He was a validly ordained Pope who taught heresy. It is good to look to the Popes for instruction in the Catholic faith, but it is wrong to look to them as a sort of source of all truth.

No Pope has every taught error when teaching as head of the Church, to the whole Church on matters pertaining to faith or morals. Never. And no bishop has taught infallibly when not in union with the Pope. All heresies have spread only with the complicity of bishops. Bishops have even started some heresies themselves, and bishops have always approved heresies, such as the Arian heresy.

 

[dcdurel]

Let me ask you, dcdurel, since you have so obviously studied the writings of the Popes and the Bible and feel confident that you can scold others for not doing the same, what is the message of the Gospel? I can tell you what it is. But I’m curious first to hear what you say it is, since you know better than all those ignorant Catholics out there. Give a straight answer. What is the gospel message and what is salvation?

My beliefs are not important.  What matters is what the Church teaches, because Church teachings come from Jesus Christ.  And when the Pope teaches as head of the Church, then the Church teaches.  Pope Paul VI gives a clear definition of what salvation is in his encyclical Evangelium Nuntiandi.  This same definition is again emphasized in the General Directory for Catechesis, and Pope John Paul II repeats it especially strongly in his encyclical Mission of the Redeemer, in Veritatis Splendor, in the "Instruction on Christian Freedom and Liberation" which he authorized, it is also found in the Roman Catechism, and in the New Catechism, though you have to learn from the Popes first, before you can recognize it in the Catechisms.      Study it.  Learn it.  It is the the central teaching of the Gospel.  How can anyone proclaim the Gospel if they don't know the precise reason Christ died for us?  
  Why don't we all know it clearly?  Because the Popes have been ignored for centuries in this country.  Every single Catholic should at least be educated on the very central message of the Gospel.  Here, I will even start off the beginning of the definition Pope Paul VI gives:  "**As the kernel and center of His Good News, Christ proclaims salvation, this great gift of God which is..."**

And the General Directory for Catechesis: ** "The message of Jesus about God is Good News for humanity. Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God; (328) a new and definitive intervention by God, with a transforming power equal and even superior to his creation of the world. (329) In this sense, “Christ proclaims salvation as the outstanding element and, as it were, the central point of his Good News. This is the great gift of God which is to be considered as comprising …”**
Notice that this salvation is considered a transforming power evern superior to His creation of the world. Then salvation is defined. Look up the rest.
Pope John Paul II taught in one of his addresses, “It was precisely for this reason that Christ died for all of us, to…” Look this up on the Vatican web site.
I repeat. Ignorance of the teachings of the Popes is the reason the Church is in such a mess today. We cannot even understand the Catechisms if we don’t know what the Popes teach. We don’t clearly understand why Jesus became man and died for our salvation, unless we study what the Popes teach. We don’t understand the central point of the Gospel, which is the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline” unless we know what the Popes teach.
Again, I repeat, the reason Catholics don’t know the content of the Gospel, don’t know how to proclaim the Gospel, and don’t know the central teaching of the Gospel is because all Catholics in this country have been misled to ignore the teachings of the Popes, especially the recent Popes, such as Pope Paul VI, and John Paul II.
And because Catholics don’t recognize the content of the Gospel and don’t know the central teaching of the Gospel, then the result is that most Catholics no longer go to mass, and they see little wrong with divorce and remarriage, fornication, contraception and abortion, and they have no idea of the primary means of obtaining grace to overcome their sins.

 

[dcdurel]

I’ve never heard this, or, at least, thought about it. Of course, I have read humanae vitae. But I haven’t read his other stuff, mostly because I still haven’t read all of JP2’s stuff, which is where I started. Note that JP2 seems to like PVI well enough, since he recalled his work in his first encyclical, uh, redemptor hominis or however that is spelled.

JP2 seems to make extensive use of PVI teachings.
People have said, and JP2 has said himself that everything he did was based on the belief that Jesus Christ is the center of everything. Then he said that Jesus Christ is the center of everything because there is no salvation in anyone else except him.

But, then I was thinking, that no one in this country gets the real meaning of salvation unless they learned from Pope Paul VI encyclical Evangelization in the Modern World or “Evangelium nuntiandi”. Thus they don’t understand what JP2 means when he says that there is no salvation in anyone else but Him.
That is because the Baltimore Catechism, which was a wonderful introductory catechism, written by the American bishops in the 1800’s and updated since then, was missing the primary meaning of salvation. This Catechism was often used as the basic teaching for Catholics and thus had an enormous influence. It was wonderful. But, it was never approved by the Popes, thus it was misleading on the primary meaning of salvation. It had all the other meaings, but it was missing the primary meaning as it has always been taught by the Church, and as was finally clarified again by Pope Paul VI.
Thus, how can we really understand why Pope John Paul II said that Jesus was the center of everything, because there is no salvation in anyone else but Him, unless we understand the primary meaning of salvation as Pope Paul VI taught and as Pope John Paul II believed?
We really can’t unless we study what Pope Paul VI taught on salvation.

Again, I make the assertion that so few Catholics go to mass, and so many Catholics are ignorant, and so many Catholics vote for pro-abortion candidates because the don’t know the basics of the Gospel, and they don’t know the basics because in this country Catholics, especially Catholic scholars, have misled everyone into ignoring what the recent Popes have been teaching. Jesus made the Popes first in authority, and if we ignore what they teach, on the basics, such as the Gospel, how to proclaim the Gospel, and the meaning of salvation, then we are ignoring Jesus Christ himself.

And because Catholic scholars have ignored the Popes, they have no clue what the Church means when she teaches the primary duty of priests if the proclamation of the Gospel to all. Thus, they can’t teach the priests, and the priests, no matter how hard they try, can’t teach us properly.
If you think I am being extreme when I say that no Catholic scholar or bishop in this country understands what the Church means by proclaiming the Gospel, then try to find a single one, any one, who can summarize the Church teachings on the content of the Gospel, how to proclaim it, and the primary meaning of salvation.

Search the internet for anyone who can explain and summarize these basic facts. I would love to find a single pamphlet, a single short summary of these basic facts by anyone. I am not good at doing this myself, that is why I have searched and searched for anyone who understands what the Church means by proclaiming the Gospel. Can’t find anything by anyone. That is why I urge everyone else to do what the scholars have not done, study what the Popes write on these subjects. Also, study JP2 encyclical Redeemer of Man, since he says that it is his most important and best encyclical and since his teachings were incorporated in the General Directory for Catechesis.
It was hard for me to understand, until I asked Jesus to help me in an adoration chapel.
He actually repeats what previous Popes have taught in the past on the dignity of man, especially when the Popes were addressing slavery in the past.
Once you learn to bypass the scholars, (except Father Hardon on the Eucharist, the best recent scholar) and just go directly to the Popes and the teachings they authorize, then you really begin to understand the Catholic faith. You will find that they repeat past teachings in a different way, and the more you study them, the easier you will find it to understand them.
Of course, only study basic encyclicals. Few of us have the time to go off on other issues, such as the Popes teachings on work, unions, etc.

 

[Pug]

JP2 seems to make extensive use of PVI teachings.

Ugh. I just remembered. John Paul 2 not only considered himself to be named after his 33 day predecessor, but the Paul part of his name was specifically Paul the sixth. How could he not quote him extensively?

People have said, and JP2 has said himself that everything he did was based on the belief that Jesus Christ is the center of everything. Then he said that Jesus Christ is the center of everything because there is no salvation in anyone else except him.

      Yes. Also, if you think about it, that there is no salvation in anyone but Jesus is a hint that Jesus is divine. St. Peter (the first pope :D:D) calls him the Author of Life, which might be taken as "through him all things came into being" but also how he came to bring "life and life abundantly" and the re-creation of all things. Very divine seeming to me. Just some musings.

But, then I was thinking, that no one in this country gets the real meaning of salvation unless they learned from Pope Paul VI encyclical Evangelization in the Modern World or “Evangelium nuntiandi”. Thus they don’t understand what JP2 means when he says that there is no salvation in anyone else but Him.

I don't agree. It does not seem like Jesus set it up that it would be impossible to know the truth of salvation without having read that encyclical. What about people living before 1975? For those who don't know how to get these encyclicals to read, pick a pope from the drop down box at:
[papalencyclicals.net/](http://www.papalencyclicals.net/)

That is because the Baltimore Catechism

Was this not submitted to the Holy See for approval first? Nowdays it would be, and I had thought I understood that back then this would have happened also. Have you looked at our new local catechism from the USCCB? Warning PDF file. Here is a sample chapter which, conveniently, is about Jesus. Ironically, it does contain a quote from PVI. The popes want us to have these particular/local catechisms. It will say this in the General Directory for Catechesis. Having them is supposed to be good.

any one, who can summarize the Church teachings on the content of the Gospel, how to proclaim it, and the primary meaning of salvation.

It is beyond my resources to seek out bishops to question concerning evangelization and the gospel message. Catholic Answers does have a short [tract ](http://www.catholic.com/library/gods_love_for_you.asp)they put out to give to people, but it isn't my favorite.  Have you looked at it?

since his teachings were incorporated in the General Directory for Catechesis.

Thanks for pointing me to this document! I’m going to study it before RCIA starts on October 1, if I can scrape up the time. I’d been planning on reading Catechesi Tradendae but this looks good too.

You will find that they repeat past teachings in a different way, and the more you study them, the easier you will find it to understand them.

I agree. I find the encyclicals eminently worthwhile.

Of course, only study basic encyclicals. Few of us have the time to go off on other issues, such as the Popes teachings on work, unions, etc.

The Vat2 doc Gaudium et Spes is worth reading, along with the collection of encyclicals that are like it (includes working conditions, social justice). I’d say at least read the Vat2 doc.

 

[dcdurel]

I wrote:“But, then I was thinking, that no one in this country gets the real meaning of salvation unless they learned from Pope Paul VI encyclical Evangelization in the Modern World or “Evangelium nuntiandi”. Thus they don’t understand what JP2 means when he says that there is no salvation in anyone else but Him.”

There has been some disagreement with this statment.
The the Church has had two major official catechisms in which can be found the primary meaning of salvation, the Roman Catechism and the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. But, it is not easy to find the primary meaning of salvation in them.
I think their are two reasons for this

1. Catechisms are primarily for those who have already been taught the initial proclamation in which the primary meaning of salvation would have been made clear. Thus the primary meaning of salvation tends to get lost as Catechisms must present everything about the faith.
2. We have been influenced so much by Protestantism, that when we read the word “saved”, and salvation, with regards to Jesus and His redemptive act, that we tend to think toward justification instead of the primary reason Jesus died for us.
3. The Council of Trent, which had an excellent exposition of justification, was more focused on the justification aspect of salvation, rather than the immediate primary aspect.
   
   I am convinced that the reason Pope Paul VI wrote that encyclical “Evangelization in the Modern World” or “Evangelii Nuntiandi” was that the Holy Spirit moved him to write it. Not necessarily every word, for that would mean it would be scripture, but at least the teachings in it. And before Vatican II the Church was stagnant, and not evangelizing and it seemed constantly on the defensive. Vatican II wanted to change all that. Of course, the opposite happened, just like in all major Church councils. But, the opposite happened because dissidents studied the documents first and made their false interpretation. Orthodox Catholics tended to ignore Vatican II and the Popes more than they did before, or perhaps they were caught up with defending the Church from the dissidents.

 

[dcdurel]

But, Pope Paul VI and JP2 were still going with Vatican II. Pope Paul VI went on the offensive and ignored the dissidents. Just leave them behind and ignore them, and let them whine and complain all they want, and lets start evangelizing again like
the Church had done in many years past. He has such enthusiasm in that encyclical for the Catholic faith and such confidence that through the Gospel taught by the Catholic Church, individuals and society can be transformed. And make no mistake, he means a thoroughly Catholic Gospel, with all the teachings the Church has always had. He made it clear that catechizing, that is, teaching the Catholic faith, with all the parts, the sacraments, etc. is a major part of evangelization of the modern world, it is one of the primary means of proclaiming the Gospel.
Pope Paul II continued that, with his first two encyclicals, Redemptor Hominis and Mission of the Redeemer. In effect he was saying, forget about the complainers and lets focus on Jesus and the Gospel that He handed down, the source of all saving truth and moral discipline, and lets proclaim this Gospel, which is really the entire Catholic faith, to everyone.
He added the importance of teaching the dignity of each person, which is really not new, the Popes in the past have taught on this extensively in combatting slavery. But, he was not afraid of critics. He just went and proclaimed the truth. He was not afraid of teaching that through Jesus we can be freed from the slavery of sin, and thus transform ourselves and this will transform society. Of course, he did spend more time correcting errors within the Church. But even these encyclicals such as “Catechesi Trandae” were focused more on teaching the truth than instead of just correcting and condemning every error within the Church. We can’t get bogged down with those who don’t want to believe the teachings of Jesus, when there are lots more people in the world who have never heard about the true Gospel and they are eager to know the truth. And this truth will transform individual and then transform society. This is the message I get from these Popes.

And in giving these messages, they teach
1.the primary meaning of salvation, which was not clear, and is not clear today, unless the teachings of the Popes are studied.
In giving these messages the Popes teach and explain
2. the content of the Gospel.
And in giving us these messages the Popes alone teach
3. how to proclaim the Gospel either directly or through the General Directory for Catechesis.

Only the Popes do this. It is useless, totally useless to study Catholic scholars or theologians, on these three aspects of the Gospel. They are totally lost.
If anyone can find any Catholic scholar who understands these aspects of the Gospel, then please let me know who they are.

Those Catholics who are influenced by the current attitude of ignoring the Popes will be left behind in their ignorance. Lets ignore them and learn from those appointed to “feed my sheep”.