Salvation, definition:

[tequilamac]

It is more humble to admit that we are all ignorant and NEED the Popes who alone are the representatives of Christ on earth. Jesus made Peter and his successors FIRST in teaching authority. Theologians have absolutely NO authority to authentically interpret the word of God.
You forget that theology is only secondary to the Gospel. If theologians don’t know the Gospel, then their theology will be a disaster. Because theology is defined as the study of God, or faith seeking understanding. In both cases, theology is the study of what God has revealed. But, all revelation is summed up in Jesus, to whom the Father revealed everything. And Jesus revealed everything to His apostles. And His apostles handed down the teachings of ALL this revelation in the Gospel they taught and preached. Thus, if theology is not based ultimately on this Gospel, then it is corrupt. Thus, if you don’t know the content of the Gospel, your theology will be in grave error. So again, we MUST know the content of the Gospel to understand the basics of the Catholic faith, to understand what God has revealed.

And bishops have authentically interpret the word of God when they are in union with the Popes. How do they know if their teaching is authentic, unless they understand what the Popes teach?

Your attitude proves exactly what the error is. The error in this country is that the teachings of the Popes come last, and if we don’t understand them, then we ignore them.
If the bishops and theologians were doing what was right, then they should have inculturated in every Catholic the idea that the Popes come first, and that the Popes are essential to understanding the Catholic faith today.

Your attitude is the exact attitude of almost every Catholic in this country, and of course it is the exact attitude of every Protestant. It is rebellion against Jesus. Jesus makes the Popes FIRST in authority, especially teaching authority.
OK, you think you don’t need the Popes. Then tell me exactly what the apostles taught and preached when Jesus told them to proclaim the Gospel.

Remember, the Church says that this Gospel is the “source of ALL saving truth and moral discipline”

Thus it is certainly obligatory to know exactly what the content of this Gospel is.

Second, we can easily learn the content of this Gospel. Vatican II teaches in Dei Verbum

"it is through His revelation that those religious truths which are by their nature accessible to human reason can be known by all men with ease, with solid certitude and with no trace of error, even in this present state of the human race."

Therefore, this Gospel can be known by all men with ease and solid certitude and with no trace of error.

Third, you think all you have to do is learn what the bishops teach, or the theologians teach, or the priests teach and you can bypass the Popes.

OK, then please tell me what which one of these theologians, bishops and priests can explain exactly the content of Gospel. And remember, the Church teaches it is the duty of all Catholics to hand down this Gospel. It is not optional.

Remember, the Church teaches this Gospel is **“the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.” **

So, if all you need is the bishops or theologians, and you don’t need the Popes to learn the content of the Gospel, the please find a single one of these theologians or bishops who can explain it to me and who is in agreement with what ALL the Popes have taught on this subject.
Good luck.

One of the signs of the grace of salvation is the wisdom to realize that contempt for the priests and bishops equals contempt for the Pope. Believe me, if you spoke the way you just did to us in front of Pope Benedict XVI, you wouldn’t even get an audience. It’s called being correct in all the wrong ways.

 

[thistle]

But, Pope Paul VI and JP2 were still going with Vatican II. Pope Paul VI went on the offensive and ignored the dissidents. Just leave them behind and ignore them, and let them whine and complain all they want, and lets start evangelizing again like
the Church had done in many years past. He has such enthusiasm in that encyclical for the Catholic faith and such confidence that through the Gospel taught by the Catholic Church, individuals and society can be transformed. And make no mistake, he means a thoroughly Catholic Gospel, with all the teachings the Church has always had. He made it clear that catechizing, that is, teaching the Catholic faith, with all the parts, the sacraments, etc. is a major part of evangelization of the modern world, it is one of the primary means of proclaiming the Gospel.
Pope Paul II continued that, with his first two encyclicals, Redemptor Hominis and Mission of the Redeemer. In effect he was saying, forget about the complainers and lets focus on Jesus and the Gospel that He handed down, the source of all saving truth and moral discipline, and lets proclaim this Gospel, which is really the entire Catholic faith, to everyone.
He added the importance of teaching the dignity of each person, which is really not new, the Popes in the past have taught on this extensively in combatting slavery. But, he was not afraid of critics. He just went and proclaimed the truth. He was not afraid of teaching that through Jesus we can be freed from the slavery of sin, and thus transform ourselves and this will transform society. Of course, he did spend more time correcting errors within the Church. But even these encyclicals such as “Catechesi Trandae” were focused more on teaching the truth than instead of just correcting and condemning every error within the Church. We can’t get bogged down with those who don’t want to believe the teachings of Jesus, when there are lots more people in the world who have never heard about the true Gospel and they are eager to know the truth. And this truth will transform individual and then transform society. This is the message I get from these Popes.

And in giving these messages, they teach
1.the primary meaning of salvation, which was not clear, and is not clear today, unless the teachings of the Popes are studied.
In giving these messages the Popes teach and explain
2. the content of the Gospel.
And in giving us these messages the Popes alone teach
3. how to proclaim the Gospel either directly or through the General Directory for Catechesis.

Only the Popes do this. It is useless, totally useless to study Catholic scholars or theologians, on these three aspects of the Gospel. They are totally lost.
If anyone can find any Catholic scholar who understands these aspects of the Gospel, then please let me know who they are.

Those Catholics who are influenced by the current attitude of ignoring the Popes will be left behind in their ignorance. Lets ignore them and learn from those appointed to “feed my sheep”.

Haven’t you heard of the sin of detraction?

By the way its been a long long time since I’ve met anyone as pompous and arrogant as you. Trying to belittle all bishops, priests, scholars and the faithful is really despictable.

 

[dcdurel]

Haven’t you heard of the sin of detraction?
By the way its been a long long time since I’ve met anyone as pompous and arrogant as you. Trying to belittle all bishops, priests, scholars and the faithful is really despictable.

All you can do is attack my character.
I didn’t say bishops and Catholics scholars are “despictable, or pompous or arrogant”. I didn’t call them names. I didn’t question their character. I didn’t accuse them of sin in the least.
I simply said the are ignorant of the most important part of Catholic teaching, thus it is totally useless to try to learn from them on this point.

I ask you again, all you have to do to prove me wrong is find any Catholic scholar who can explain or teach

1. the primary meaning of salvation as Pope Paul VI teaches and Pope John Paul II teaches over and over, since “Christ proclaims salvation as the outstanding element and, as it were, the central point of his Good News.”
2. the content of the Gospel.
3. how to proclaim this Gospel.
   **
   Since the primary duty of priests is the “proclamation of the Gospel to all”**, then surely Catholic bishops and scholars in this country explain and teach the most important duty in the world, to priests. Surely all priests are taught clearly these three points. And since priests are all clearly taught these three points, then surely they are teaching them to the laity, since the Church teaches regarding the Gospel, “all Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation.” CCC

But we know this is not true. The poor stressed out priests are not taught this most basic duty at the seminary, and they are so busy once they are ordained they just don’t have the tremendous amount of time it takes through study and prayer to find out the truth in this matter. They expect the theologians to summarize and teach it to them, and they are correct. The theologians should be the ones to at least summarize and teach it to them, so they can teach it to us.
But, even the good theologians can’t learn these basic truths because there is a pervasive belief in this country , especially from the seminaries, that the Popes should be ignored. The comments on this topic about the Popes is evidence of this belief. And if the theologians still try to learn from the Popes, then they become confused, because the Popes use the word “Gospel” in a manner in which they have never been taught. For example, the General Directory for Catechesis, authorized and promoted by Pope John Paul II says, “in local catechisms the Church communicates the Gospel…” and local catechisms are “called to bring the power of the Gospel into the very heart of culture and cultures”. They can’t understand how teaching about purgatory, or teaching the importance of praying to the saints in heaven “communicates the Gospel” or brings the “power of the Gospel” into the very heart of cultures. So they tend to ignore Pope Paul VI’s encyclical on evangelization and they tend to ignore the General Directory for Catechesis because these make teaching of the Catholic faith a major way of “proclaiming the Gospel”.
Why are they confused? Because theologians are taught that the Gospel is only the “written words and deeds of Jesus” as the old Catholic Encyclopedia teaches, or the “Gospel” refers to the four Gospels of the bible.

The fact that you don’t know what the content of the Gospel is, or how to proclaim the Gospel is one of the proofs of what I am saying.

What I am saying is simply common sense. Since the theologians and Catholic scholars have no understanding of the three basic points I mentioned above, then we must learn from the Popes exactly what they mean by salvation and proclaiming the Gospel. **The very reason the Popes write these encyclicals and the very reason Pope John Paul II promulgated “The General Directory for Catechesis” is BECAUSE we don’t know how to proclaim the Gospel.
**
**If all priests were taught how to proclaim the Gospel and they all taught us how to proclaim the Gospel, then the Popes would not be writing these encyclicals.
**
And since theologians do not seem to understand what the Popes are teaching, then we all have a duty to learn from the Popes. Because as Pope John Paul II said,

“No believer in Christ, no institution of the Church can avoid this supreme duty: to proclaim Christ to all peoples.”
**Mission of the Redeemer **
Pope John Paul II

 

[thistle]

**All you can do is attack my character.
I didn’t say bishops and Catholics scholars are “despictable, or pompous or arrogant”. I didn’t call them names. I didn’t question their character. I didn’t accuse them of sin in the least.
I simply said they are ignorant of the most important part of Catholic teaching, thus it is totally useless to try to learn from them on this point. **



You attack and insult all bishops, priests, scholars and all 1.2 billion of the faithful saying everyone except you and the Pope are ignorant and you wonder why we think your character is questionable.
I repeat that your arrogance and attitude towards all Catholics is despicable.
Its your attitude that is the issue and not the definition of salvation.

 

[dcdurel]

**All you can do is attack my character.
I didn’t say bishops and Catholics scholars are “despictable, or pompous or arrogant”. I didn’t call them names. I didn’t question their character. I didn’t accuse them of sin in the least.
I simply said they are ignorant of the most important part of Catholic teaching, thus it is totally useless to try to learn from them on this point. **

You attack and insult all bishops, priests, scholars and all 1.2 billion of the faithful saying everyone except you and the Pope are ignorant and you wonder why we think your character is questionable.
I repeat that your arrogance and attitude towards all Catholics is despicable.
Its your attitude that is the issue and not the definition of salvation.

I don’t think you understand the problem. This rejection of the Pope’s encyclicals has always been a practice of the bishops and Catholic scholars.
The Popes have always been the ones to correct errors in which the rest of the Church was being led astray. Here are a few examples.

1. When almost all Catholics were rejecting the Church’s constant teaching on contraception, Pope Paul VI was almost alone in the world teaching Catholics to hold on to the contstant Tradition handed down by the apostles. In this country, only one theologian publically supported him during this time, John Kipply. Most of the bishops did not support the Pope.
2. Before the civil war the Catholics in this country accepted slavery. The Popes wrote 9 encyclicals during this time in which they specifically condemned slavery and the slave trade. But historians note: "No (American) Catholic bishop spoke for abolition in the pre-war years." Yet many, even today, believe the Church came lately to its opposition to slavery, according to Father Panzer,
   “As I looked into it, I saw the Church has been misunderstood. From the 1400s on, I found popes had spoken out,” he explained in a recent interview.
   Part of the problem was the inaccessibility of many of the actual decrees and encyclicals of the early popes, often available only in Latin. This led to faulty scholarship, which in turn led to charges that the Church had been silent. Adding to the problem was that these teachings were often misinterpreted, willfully misunderstood or ignored. “Again and again, they [bishops, priests and religious orders] simply were not teaching what the popes taught,” Father Panzer explained.
   Naturally this led to racism amoung the Catholic hierarchy. Augustus Tolton was a young black man who wanted to become a priest, However, the American Catholic Church did not allow Black men to be admitted to studies in United States seminaries. The Catholic hierarchy was too enlightened in 1880 to allow blacks to become Catholic priests. They knew what was best, not the Popes. So he had to go to Rome to study and be ordained a priest. **
   John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about the Arian heresy: ** “There was] the temporary suspense of the function of Ecclesia Docens [teaching Church] as about 80 percent of the bishops fell into heresy. ** The body of bishops failed in their confession of the faith.”**
   And we all know how none of the Catholic bishops in England, except one, supported the pope when King Henry VIII declared himself head of the Church in England.

We could go on and on, with the Jansenist heresy where bishops opposed the pope, with the Albigensian heresy where bishops and priests ignored the Pope, etc. We must face reality, this has always been a problem in the Church. If all bishops and scholars were always in agreement with the Popes, then the Popes would not have spend months and months writing encyclicals to correct the errors of these Catholics.

     If Pope Paul VI had to write an encyclical to teach how to proclaim the Gospel, and if Pope John Paul II wrote other encyclicals on proclaiming the Gospel, such as "Mission of the Redeemer" and if he had to correct other errors by Catholic scholars in "Veritatis Splendor", etc, etc. and if he had to promote and authorized "The General Directory for Catechesis", it is BECAUSE Catholic bishops and Catholic scholars are ignorant of the truth.

The only way we can correct our errors is to humbly submit ourselves to the authority of the Popes and learn from them. History proves that the Bishops and Catholic scholars seldom do this very quickly or very well. That is why I am suggestion that ordinary Catholics learn from the Popes instead of blindly assuming that bishops and Catholic scholars in this country have suddenly changed their ways of thinking.

 

[tequilamac]

thistle;1516322:

I don’t think you understand the problem. This rejection of the Pope’s encyclicals has always been a practice of the bishops and Catholic scholars.
The Popes have always been the ones to correct errors in which the rest of the Church was being led astray. Here are a few examples.

1. When almost all Catholics were rejecting the Church’s constant teaching on contraception, Pope Paul VI was almost alone in the world teaching Catholics to hold on to the contstant Tradition handed down by the apostles. In this country, only one theologian publically supported him during this time, John Kipply. Most of the bishops did not support the Pope.
2. Before the civil war the Catholics in this country accepted slavery. The Popes wrote 9 encyclicals during this time in which they specifically condemned slavery and the slave trade. But historians note: "No (American) Catholic bishop spoke for abolition in the pre-war years

." Yet many, even today, believe the Church came lately to its opposition to slavery, according to Father Panzer,
“As I looked into it, I saw the Church has been misunderstood. From the 1400s on, I found popes had spoken out,” he explained in a recent interview.
Part of the problem was the inaccessibility of many of the actual decrees and encyclicals of the early popes, often available only in Latin. This led to faulty scholarship, which in turn led to charges that the Church had been silent. Adding to the problem was that these teachings were often misinterpreted, willfully misunderstood or ignored. “Again and again, they [bishops, priests and religious orders] simply were not teaching what the popes taught,” Father Panzer explained.
Naturally this led to racism amoung the Catholic hierarchy. Augustus Tolton was a young black man who wanted to become a priest, However, the American Catholic Church did not allow Black men to be admitted to studies in United States seminaries. The Catholic hierarchy was too enlightened in 1880 to allow blacks to become Catholic priests. They knew what was best, not the Popes. So he had to go to Rome to study and be ordained a priest. **
John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about the Arian heresy: ** “There was] the temporary suspense of the function of Ecclesia Docens [teaching Church] as about 80 percent of the bishops fell into heresy. ** The body of bishops failed in their confession of the faith.”**
And we all know how none of the Catholic bishops in England, except one, supported the pope when King Henry VIII declared himself head of the Church in England.

We could go on and on, with the Jansenist heresy where bishops opposed the pope, with the Albigensian heresy where bishops and priests ignored the Pope, etc. We must face reality, this has always been a problem in the Church. If all bishops and scholars were always in agreement with the Popes, then the Popes would not have spend months and months writing encyclicals to correct the errors of these Catholics.

     If Pope Paul VI had to write an encyclical to teach how to proclaim the Gospel, and if Pope John Paul II wrote other encyclicals on proclaiming the Gospel, such as "Mission of the Redeemer" and if he had to correct other errors by Catholic scholars in "Veritatis Splendor", etc, etc. and if he had to promote and authorized "The General Directory for Catechesis", it is BECAUSE Catholic bishops and Catholic scholars are ignorant of the truth.

The only way we can correct our errors is to humbly submit ourselves to the authority of the Popes and learn from them. History proves that the Bishops and Catholic scholars seldom do this very quickly or very well. That is why I am suggestion that ordinary Catholics learn from the Popes instead of blindly assuming that bishops and Catholic scholars in this country have suddenly changed their ways of thinking.

Good heavens. Perhaps you would like to explain to us where the Popes came from. What did they do before they were Pope? I mean I would not want to assume that Fr. Ratzinger suddenly changed his thinking, by association with Pope John Paul II who of course was never a priest, bishop or theologian himself. And here we were calling Ratzinger the greatest theologian and scholar the Church has had for a while. Before he became Pope. I wonder what people thought when he was a simple priest? Thank you for letting us know how incompetent Pope Benedict XVI was when he was simply Fr. Ratzinger.

 

[dcdurel]

dcdurel;1518212:

Good heavens. Perhaps you would like to explain to us where the Popes came from. What did they do before they were Pope? I mean I would not want to assume that Fr. Ratzinger suddenly changed his thinking, by association with Pope John Paul II who of course was never a priest, bishop or theologian himself. And here we were calling Ratzinger the greatest theologian and scholar the Church has had for a while. Before he became Pope. I wonder what people thought when he was a simple priest? Thank you for letting us know how incompetent Pope Benedict XVI was when he was simply Fr. Ratzinger.

Of course there are a few priests, like a needles in a hay stack, who are above the rest. They are impossible to find on our own, just as we can’t find a needle in a haystack.
Of course, we don’t have to find them. God finds them for us and makes them the Popes. We need to look to them for leadership, NOT Catholic theologians and scholars who ignore their teachings.
Notice what the Catechism says:
899. Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church. [[432]](file:///home/dennis/Desktop/Church%20Docs/Catechism%20of%20the%20Catholic%20Church.html#8G432)
We see how it is the leadership of the Pope we are supposed to follow, and the bishops in communion with him. But, how do we know which ones are in communion with him, unless we know what he teaches? Therefore it is obligatory to find out what he teaches.

The catechism continues.
900. Since, like all the faithful, lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.

 Since we have the DUTY to make known the divine message of salvation and the Gospel, then we have a duty to learn exactly this message of salvation and we have a duty to learn the Gospel.  Now I would love to have Catholic scholars summarize the Popes teachings on these two points, so that I don't have to spend months learning everything that is written.  But, just as the theologians did NOT publically support Pope Paul VI on his encyclical Humanae Vitae, they did the exact same thing with Evangelization in the Modern World, which teaches us the primary message of salvation and teaches us the content of the Gospel and  how to proclaim the Gospel.  

  Since Catholic educators and scholars did not listen to Pope Paul VI, then Pope John Paul II pushed and authorized the General Directory for Catechesis, which is the same message in different words and explains the overall view of the message of salvation and proclaiming the Gospel and how Catechesis, or education in the faith, is a major part of proclaiming the Gospel. It is an excellent, excellent book, which can be downloaded free from from the internet.

 

[dcdurel]

Since the catechism teaches, concerning lay activity, “apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it” then why not help the pastors? And since they are usually taught to ignore the Popes in the seminary, ( I know since my brother was in a seminiary), then why not help them with the primary message of salvation and of the Gospel by learning what the Popes teach. Remember, priests and even bishops tend to learn from theologians and Catholic educators, since there is so much to learn, and if these fail in their duty for whatever reason, (as they have done so much in the past ) then the priests and bishops will be ignorant on these matters.
Or we can try to learn the best we can, summarize what we have learned, then bring this understanding to the priests and ask them if they think we have the correct understanding. They can help us since they know much more theology than we do. We can all work together on this point. They have a very difficult job. This is much better then just condemning the priests for not teaching doctrine, as some people do on these forums.

So, my suggestion is that since there is vast ignorance by me and everyone else on the very basic message of salvation and the very basics of “proclaiming the Gospel”, then we all must learn from the Popes. They have prepared material just for us, just for this purpose. God chose them out of all the Catholics in the world to lead us. We need to learn from them. We learn the best we can, share this with the priests and ask their advise on whether we have learned it correctly, then learn some more. We can all work together.