Salvation for Catholics only

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Sorry I was not more clear. I am arguing against indifferentism.

Gotcha

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know “how it works”, but I do know that C.S. Lewis, and Billy Graham are not rotting in hell.

Well, Billy isn’t - at least not yet. He’s still alive, as far as I know.

I remember reading somewhere that C. S. Lewis did knowingly reject to convert to the Catholic faith - he knew J. R. R. Tolkien, who was a good Catholic and outspoken about his faith. So, hopefully he had a “death bed conversion” or something like that - but during his lifetime, he knowingly rejected the Catholic Church.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I don’t know “how it works”, but I do know that C.S. Lewis, and Billy Graham are not rotting in hell.
I know that God is infinite love and infinite mercy.

You don’t know if they are in heaven or hell and nor do we. The reason we can’t know this is because we don’t know their heart and thus ultimately why they didn’t join the Church. I like to believe that they are not in hell and I will humbly leave the rest to God for his way are good and just.

I know that no one is “good” - Jesus said so.
I know that in the history of the world, billions of people have been “outside” the Catholic church: and that God cares just as much for each one of them as he does for you.
I know that all pain, turmoil, destruction, and loss are ultimately redemptive - there is no such thing as pure destruction for destruction’s sake - not in the bible, or in any of the teachings of the Church.
I know that Faith is a gift - belief is an action. If you’re given Faith, and then you chose disbelief - you are culpable. Faith without works is dead.
I know in my heart that something just isn’t right when Catholics talk like evangelical crazies - and no, I am not in any way “liberal”, either theologically, or politically.

Well, what do you mean by Catholics who act like evangelical crazies? If you mean those who will say that no one apart from Catholics was or will ever be saved then OK, that’s definably wrong. But you need to understand that the Catholic Church has always taught that extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Salvation is for those who belong to the Church of Christ. Those outside of it are simply that, outside. Now, if we are ignorant of the Truth then we are not accountable for not entering the Church. We are however accountable for everything else and so ignorance of the Truth doesn’t save you either. We need to understand that God gave us only one way to be saved not two ways. But for those who seek him and don’t know him (for you can only fully know him when in the Church), God will not condemn based on their ignorance.

At least that’s how I understand it.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I remember reading somewhere that C. S. Lewis did knowingly reject to convert to the Catholic faith - he knew J. R. R. Tolkien, who was a good Catholic and outspoken about his faith. So, hopefully he had a “death bed conversion” or something like that - but during his lifetime, he knowingly rejected the Catholic Church.

Ye, well, I was wondering this as well. I have to remind you though that he went from complete atheism to theism and from that to Christianity. As an outspoken atheist who converted to Christianity…I think he would have the guts to convert from Anglicanism to the Catholic Church as well if he knew that the Catholic faith real. I also don’t think that he was indifferent about it. But who know. I just don’t think it’s wise to make these kind of concussions.

Pax

 

[CollegeKid]

CollegeKid,

Your argument doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying, because you can get into college through the “back door”, like night school, that no one would ever use the front door.
One is easy(ish), one is not.

Now, when transferring this analogy to the soul, magnify the difficulty and ramifications accordingly.

I’m sorry, but could you elaborate on this for me? I’m not sure I follow your line of reasoning. For the record, I’m not claiming to believe that all (including Jews) who are not formally received into the Catholic Church before death are bound to end up in Hell. I do believe in invincible ignorance because the Church has stated that it exists. I have no idea who’s in Hell, though on some days I feel like I could take a few guesses (Stalin, Hitler, etc.)

What I’m saying could be formulated positively this way: All who are saved are saved through the Catholic Church (and no other religion), even if this number includes individuals who did not formally/visibly join Her during their lifetimes.

The Catholic Church afterall is the Mystical Body of Christ, and along with its visible element it has the invisible or mystical element through which, I imagine, God will receive those persons who did the best they could with the truth they had, even if they didn’t know that the Catholic religion is the true one, if this ignorance was not their fault. These persons could be Jews, pagans, protestants, whatever. I have no idea how many or how few of them there will be.

The flip side of this is that if any of the aforementioned do come to know that the Catholic Church is the true one or they have enough doubt about their own faith that God decides they’re mortally culpable for not joining the Church or at least further pursuing the truth, then in accordance with the teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I believe they could not be saved.

If by labeling one way the “easy” way you’re referring to practicing the Catholic faith in formal union with the Church during one’s lifetime, then I agree to the extent that salvation is made easier by having access to the sacraments, doctrine, Bible, etc.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

If by labeling one way the “easy” way you’re referring to practicing the Catholic faith in formal union with the Church during one’s lifetime, then I agree to the extent that salvation is made easier by having access to the sacraments, doctrine, Bible, etc.

Yes, exactly. And that’s how the priest described it too.

I think of being Roman Catholic as like installing Garmin or TomTom in your car. You get the best route, and can concentrate more on the destination, less on navigating.

 

[GerardP]

Yes, and I’ll bet that the most surprised will be self-righteous, smug “Catholics”.

This is really interesting. I’ll assume from the tone Joel, that you think I believe I’m confident that I’m going to Heaven. I’m not. I’ve got to Hope for that. And Hope is only a virtue when all seems hopeless.

We have to work out our salvation with “fear and trembling.”

Part of that is knowing our place in regards to what has been revealed and what has been the constant teaching of the Church.

God is God. There is no one like Him. He makes the judgements and they are perfect. There is no injustice in Hell.

I don’t decide how high or low the standards are for God’s judgement and I’m certainly not willing to be presumptive enough to think that I know who is good enough or who didn’'t make it.

All I know is what the Catholic Church has taught as being revealed by God.

I won’t question His judgement or His Church’s dogmas especially when He took the time and considered it important enough to reveal to His Human creations and told us what it takes to get to Him.

I want everyone to go to Heaven, I want everyone to become fervently Catholic. But I might fall and others who are better than me might fall and others who are worse than I am might go the whole distance.

I know from Our Lord’s words that many will strive and fail and many will fall. Who they are, I don’t know. All I know is, I don’t want to be one of the ones who fall.

But I do know that somehow, someway either by gratuitous miracle or the intercession of prayers, saints and angels whoever gets into Heaven post-Resurrection is Catholic before the last moment.

 

[CollegeKid]

Yes, exactly. And that’s how the priest described it too.

I think of being Roman Catholic as like installing Garmin or TomTom in your car. You get the best route, and can concentrate more on the destination, less on navigating.

Well, no disrespect but that kind of trivializes the point of being Catholic, at least to my ears. Maybe I don’t totally understand how you see it.

 

[GerardP]

Yes, exactly. And that’s how the priest described it too.

I think of being Roman Catholic as like installing Garmin or TomTom in your car. You get the best route, and can concentrate more on the destination, less on navigating.

I’ll have to snoop around for the encyclical but I’m almost completely sure that what you are describing has been condemned by several Popes. I think it was one of the Piuses who wrote “the idea that Catholicism is simply the best or most complete of the Christian religions” or something like that was completely erroneous.

Anyone know which one I’m thinking of?

edit: Found it! Pascendi- by St. Pius X

“In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more living and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity. That these consequences flow from the premises will not seem unnatural to anybody. But what is amazing is that there are Catholics and priests who, We would fain believe, abhor such enormities yet act as if they fully approved of them. For they heap such praise and bestow such public honour on the teachers of these errors as to give rise to the belief that their admiration is not meant merely for the persons, who are perhaps not devoid of a certain merit, but rather for the errors which these persons openly profess and which they do all in their power to propagate.”

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yes, exactly. And that’s how the priest described it too.

I think of being Roman Catholic as like installing Garmin or TomTom in your car. You get the best route, and can concentrate more on the destination, less on navigating.

This sounds like you are saying that there are many different paths to salvation but the Catholic Church is the best and safest one of them. Am I correct?

Well, if I’m correct then this idea is WRONG. The Catholic Church is the ONLY ONE way to salvation. There is no other way. Being Catholic isn’t just about getting some extra aid fuel to the path of Heaven. No, being Catholic is about being on the ship - the only ship on the ocean.

As we however said, you must interpret the extra ecclesiam nulla salus the way the Church interprets it. I think you could say it this way: if you are swimming in the sea but are searching for the ship and doing it the best way you can, God should give you his helping hand (whatever that means).

However if you weren’t on the ship and end up in Heaven, it was still because of the ship and is some way through the ship (now this is when the analogy gets a bit stupid). For as was already mentioned, Church is the mysterious Body of Christ and while She’s visible, She’s also invisible and many are connected to Her while not being formally Her members.

 

[Teelynn]

Guess I’m sort of crashing this thread, coming in so late, but it is a real coincidence that I was reading just the other day in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” about this very subject. I will not quote it entirely, but I will sum it up:

In the early Church there arose certain rifts, that subsequently caused complete separations from the Church. This was caused by human sin on both sides of the Isle. No one was innocent.

I will quote the next part on page 216 paragraph 818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities (that resulted from such separation) and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sactification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, and the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to Him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

I believe there IS room in heaven for non Catholic Christians, although, as has been stated it is not the easier pathway. It makes sense to me that the great sin of separation belongs to those directly involved, both those separating and the heirarchy of the Church at the time. Those are the ones whose souls have been blackened, and unless having reconcilled have been forever lost in hell. I believe we will be judged according to the light we were given. The following generations (the ones brought up in their faith) were innocent of this. No, it does not let them off the hook, but if they confessed their sins and asked forgiveness before God (in the only way they have known) before death how and why would God not have mercy on them?

Now, for instance, if one has received the light of truth in the Catholic Church, and has rejected it, and left the Church, that soul I believe is in real danger. Unless he returns to the Church he is lost forever. JMHO

 

[jssaxon]

In ‘Unam sanctam’ Pope Boniface VIII stated: “… we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

This obviously means only Catholics can be saved, no?
Obviously if someone has no knowledge of Catholicism, that person would be an exception, but a Protestant down the street for example, who has full knowledge of all the different religions out there, he, I imagine, would not and he would not be saved.

That’s totally irrational. How ridiculous. Do you really believe that?

 

[Teelynn]

Just another thought; It’s kind of like saying that all babies that die without being baptised through no fault of their own of course, will not go to heaven. Same analogy.

 

[GerardP]

Just another thought; It’s kind of like saying that all babies that die without being baptised through no fault of their own of course, will not go to heaven. Same analogy.

Babies who die without Baptism are not going to go to Heaven.

They won’t be punished in any way because they didn’t sin but Heaven isn’t a civil right. It’s a gift from God.

God’s mercy may extend to His knowledge of all things in that a person may not ever actually make it to Heaven but He allows their death in order to prevent Eternal punishment.

Much like we can hope for the salvation of Oza because of his intentions yet not question God’s rightness in striking him down for his action in regard to the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Just another thought; It’s kind of like saying that all babies that die without being baptised through no fault of their own of course, will not go to heaven. Same analogy.

This is what Limbo is for…

 

[SemperFidelis]

I guess since I haven’t been involved in an EENS thread in a while, I’ll bring out “the big guns”:

Baltimore Catechism on Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus:

1. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
   A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.

Catechism of St. Pius X on Baptism of Desire:

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Here are some further Traditional articles that deal with Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus and Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood:

Some of these articles are from sedevacantists, but they are useful, because they are very good articles from very Traditional Catholics on the subject at hand.

sspx.org/miscellaneous/th…feeneyites.htm

sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr…c_doctrine.htm

sspx.org/miscellaneous/three_baptisms.htm

sspx.org/District_Superio…ors_letter.htm

truecatholic.org/cathsalv.htm

sspv.net/flash_paper/arti…cle_feeney.swf

cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html

 

[Sure]

Babies who die without Baptism are not going to go to Heaven.

They won’t be punished in any way because they didn’t sin but Heaven isn’t a civil right. It’s a gift from God.

God’s mercy may extend to His knowledge of all things in that a person may not ever actually make it to Heaven but He allows their death in order to prevent Eternal punishment.

Much like we can hope for the salvation of Oza because of his intentions yet not question God’s rightness in striking him down for his action in regard to the Ark of the Covenant.

That’s quite a limit you’ve imposed on God. We don’t know if His mercy would extend to those unbaptized children or not. We will never know.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Here are some further Traditional articles that deal with Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus and Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood:

Some of these articles are from sedevacantists, but they are useful, because they are very good articles from very traditional Catholics on the subject at hand.

sspx.org/miscellaneous/three_errors_of_feeneyites.htm

sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr_feeney_catholic_doctrine.htm

sspx.org/miscellaneous/three_baptisms.htm

sspx.org/District_Superiors_Ltrs/2001_ds_ltrs/may_01_district_superiors_letter.htm

truecatholic.org/cathsalv.htm

sspv.net/flash_paper/articles/001_article_feeney.swf

cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html

 

[SemperFidelis]

As to Joel, who thinks Jews can be saved by the Old Covenant, read these:

Council of Florence, EX CATHEDRA:

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, CEASED, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they CANNOT BE OBSERVED without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”

Here are some Papal Encyclicals that back this up:

**Pope Benedict XIV, *Ex Quo Primum ***(# 61):

“The first consideration is that the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law were abrogated by the coming of Christ and that they can no longer be observed without sin after the promulgation of the Gospel."

Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis, para. 29:

And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel - the Law and the Gospel were together in force; but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race. “To such an extent, then,” says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, “was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.”

It seems your Priest needs to brush up on his Church Dogma a little bit…