Salvation for Catholics only

[Arnobius]

That’s not what Fr. Feeney said. He simply concluded as I do that God would provide a physical baptism whether we knew about it or not.

A portion of Feeney:
All those, therefore, who do not profess the Catholic Faith, or who do not participate in the sacraments of the Church or who do not submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, are not members of the Church and, therefore, cannot be saved.

Does this mean that every adult who is baptized outside the Catholic Church, or every baptized child who grows up and follows the heretical sect of his parents, cannot be saved? Yes, unless, before he dies, he repents and joins the Catholic Church.
FROM THE HOUSETOPS Vol. III, No. 3 Spring, 1949

 

[Bible_Believer]

Basically, then, reading this thread…I come away thinking that I would be viewed as damned to hell…as being not a catholic.
Is that really what you are saying?? My Bible tells me that there is none righteous, no not one…and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I came to the point in my life where I realized that I am a sinner…and that there is nothing I can do to earn my way to heaven on my own. Jesus Christ, God’s son…came to this earth in bodily form…and died a sinner’s death on the cross, paying the debt I owed…His blood paid the penalty for you and me that if we would be accept that by faith, we would be with him in Heaven. My friends…it doesnt matter what church you belong to…I go to a Baptist church…but I dont really like to even say that because I dont want people to think that because Im a Baptist that I think we have the corner on Heaven…we dont…I consider myself a Bible Believing Christian that happens to go to a baptist church. Anyway…I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour and the word of God also tells me that once I am saved that I cannot lose that salvation, and that I can know that I have eternal life. I pray that for everyone…in here…and everywhere.
God bless!

 

[TMC]

but to say that there is no such thing as baptism of desire or baptism of blood is to go against the teaching of the Church from its earliest times.

That’s not what Fr. Feeney said. He simply concluded as I do that God would provide a physical baptism whether we knew about it or not.

This is from Feeney’s work “Bread of Life” Chapter 7:

Q. What. does “Baptism of Desire” mean?
A. It means the belief in the necessity of Baptism of Water for salvation, and a full intent to receive it.

Q. Can “Baptism of Desire” save you?
A. Never.

Q. Could “Baptism of Desire” save you if you really believed it could?
A. It could not.

Q. Could it possibly suffice for you to pass into a state of justification?
A. It could.

Q. If you got into the state of justification with the aid of “Baptism of Desire,” and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?
A. Never.

Read more about it here:

Bread of Life

 

[bear06]

Basically, then, reading this thread…I come away thinking that I would be viewed as damned to hell…as being not a catholic.
Is that really what you are saying?? My Bible tells me that there is none righteous, no not one…and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I came to the point in my life where I realized that I am a sinner…and that there is nothing I can do to earn my way to heaven on my own. Jesus Christ, God’s son…came to this earth in bodily form…and died a sinner’s death on the cross, paying the debt I owed…His blood paid the penalty for you and me that if we would be accept that by faith, we would be with him in Heaven. My friends…it doesnt matter what church you belong to…I go to a Baptist church…but I dont really like to even say that because I dont want people to think that because Im a Baptist that I think we have the corner on Heaven…we dont…I consider myself a Bible Believing Christian that happens to go to a baptist church. Anyway…I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour and the word of God also tells me that once I am saved that I cannot lose that salvation, and that I can know that I have eternal life. I pray that for everyone…in here…and everywhere.
God bless!

Of course, denomination matters. This is just plain logic. You can’t have 100 different churches with 100 different “truths” and have them all be right. For example, you can’t have one church say that the bread and wine, after the Consecration, is Jesus’ Body and Blood and have another church say it’s not. They can’t both be right. One is true and one is not. One is following the teaching of Christ (Truth) and one is not. Remember, the way is narrow. The it simply does matter.

Now, that said, here is what the Church fathers actually say about salvation outside the Church. catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

 

[Arnobius]

Basically, then, reading this thread…I come away thinking that I would be viewed as damned to hell…as being not a catholic.
Is that really what you are saying?? My Bible tells me that there is none righteous, no not one…and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I came to the point in my life where I realized that I am a sinner…and that there is nothing I can do to earn my way to heaven on my own. Jesus Christ, God’s son…came to this earth in bodily form…and died a sinner’s death on the cross, paying the debt I owed…His blood paid the penalty for you and me that if we would be accept that by faith, we would be with him in Heaven. My friends…it doesnt matter what church you belong to…I go to a Baptist church…but I dont really like to even say that because I dont want people to think that because Im a Baptist that I think we have the corner on Heaven…we dont…I consider myself a Bible Believing Christian that happens to go to a baptist church. Anyway…I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour and the word of God also tells me that once I am saved that I cannot lose that salvation, and that I can know that I have eternal life. I pray that for everyone…in here…and everywhere.
God bless!

Please keep in mind we are debating the views of someone who was excommunicated for holding an extreme view. The views of Feeney are not the views of the Church. Bear is correct that what one believes is important of course.

 

[Bible_Believer]

hi bear06,
maybe I didnt state that right…what I was trying to say when I said denomination doesnt matter is that JUST because Im a baptist, Im saved…because it is not the church I go to…its what the Bible says.

 

[bear06]

hi bear06,
maybe I didnt state that right…what I was trying to say when I said denomination doesnt matter is that JUST because Im a baptist, Im saved…because it is not the church I go to…its what the Bible says.

And this would be a misunderstanding we have with most protestants. Catholics don’t believe in sola scriptura and it’s not found in the Bibile. We have to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church to be living our lives as God wants us to live them. In other words, we believe in Scripture and Tradition as the Bible tells us we ought and we believe that these two hand in hand is the path to salvation… Maybe this would explain the Catholic position better: catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

I highly recommend the Catholic Answers tracts found under the library section on the homepage to better understand what Catholics believe. catholic.com/ You might not agree but it would help to better understand where we are coming from (if that’s possible with the motley bunch that runs around these forums).

 

[Bible_Believer]

what does sola scriptura mean?? I have noticed that several times and actually have meant to ask!
And thank you , bear06, I will read the tract and the other link that explains the beliefs!
God bless ya!

 

[bear06]

what does sola scriptura mean?? I have noticed that several times and actually have meant to ask!
And thank you , bear06, I will read the tract and the other link that explains the beliefs!
God bless ya!

Good question. Sola Scriptura translates to Scripture alone or Bible alone. This actually isn’t Biblical. The tracts delve into it a lot more. For one thing, you need someone to properly interpret the Scripture. We then find ourselves back at my first response to you. 100 people can interpret the Bible 100 different ways. They cannot all be correct, right (see example given above)? We need the One, True Church that interprets them correctly otherwise we end up with several different “truths” which cannot be “Truth” at all.

 

[bear06]

Also, I forgot to mention that if you search on the homepage for Sola Scriptura, you will bring up a wealth of articles on the subject. It really is the starting point for understanding why we say the Catholic Church is THE Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Basically, then, reading this thread…I come away thinking that I would be viewed as damned to hell…as being not a catholic.
Is that really what you are saying?? My Bible tells me that there is none righteous, no not one…and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. I came to the point in my life where I realized that I am a sinner…and that there is nothing I can do to earn my way to heaven on my own.

But it was Jesus who gave us the Sacraments, and commanded us to make use of them. It was Jesus who established the Catholic Church, and no other. (The Baptist Church was founded in rebellion against teachings of the Catholic Church - meaning teachings of Christ - that the original Baptists didn’t like. Can a Church that rejects certain teachings of Christ bring people with certainty into Heaven?)

Jesus Christ, God’s son…came to this earth in bodily form…and died a sinner’s death on the cross, paying the debt I owed…His blood paid the penalty for you and me that if we would be accept that by faith, we would be with him in Heaven.

Faith is not mere mental assent, however. Faith is to follow the religion that Christ gave to us, in all its details - the Sacraments, the Mass, the disciplines, and all.

My friends…it doesnt matter what church you belong to…

Sorry, but yes it does. It is very, very important to belong to the actual one that Christ established. Read John 21:15-19, very carefully, word for word, and think of its meaning apart from whatever you may have been taught in the Baptist Church. Ask yourself, “Why Peter? After all, the rest of them denied Him, too, except for John.” Through history, we trace the Papacy all the way back to the Apostle Peter.

Very few other churches can trace their leadership historically back to the Apostles, and there is no other that can trace it in an unbroken line back to the man that Jesus set in charge of His Church.

Anyway…I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour and the word of God also tells me that once I am saved that I cannot lose that salvation, and that I can know that I have eternal life.

The New Testament does not teach any such thing. Read the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5, 6, 7) Read all of Matthew 25. Realize that these are words to believers. If believers are automatically saved merely for becoming believers, then why warn them of Hell? Why command them to do certain things, if our “works” mean nothing?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Oh, hi Bible Believer! Yes, those tracts are good, they explain why doesn’t the Catholic Church teach this. Read them so you can understand where we are coming from in this discussion. Bear06 essentially explained what it means as well. But what you need to know from start is that this doctrine was brought from a mind of a man called Martin Luther and was contrary to the understanding of Christianity before the Reformation. Read what the first Christians say about all these things and you will see that Martin Luther created something completely new and by doing so split Christianity into various contradicting denominations, emphasized a self-centered view on a human being and essentially brought about the culture of secularism and relativism, slowly destroying the western society. Yep…

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

hi bear06,
maybe I didnt state that right…what I was trying to say when I said denomination doesnt matter is that JUST because Im a baptist, Im saved…because it is not the church I go to…its what the Bible says.

Galatians 1:9
"I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. "

So, which denomination preaches the gospel that Jesus gave to the apostles and which one simply teaches lies based on fallible interpretations of some man? Those who say that baptism is necessary for salvation? Those who say that it isn’t? And the list goes on and on. How do we know? Well, the only way to know is to have an authority which can give us the answer and guide us. I heard many non-catholic say that it is the Holy Spirit but that is simply not true. We need an Authority and the Holy Spirit. If Holy Spirit Worked liked that there wouldn’t be disputes on doctrinal matters and all good Christians would agree.

Acts 8:30-31
Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Basically we have many many Christian groups that preach different gospels but Jesus Christ founded One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (as the creed says) against which the gates of hell will not prevail. All the other groups rebelled against the Catholic Church during reformation. In this Church there is salvation. Outside of the anathema applies. This is in short why we worry about salvation of those who reject the Truth.

 

[GerardP]

If this physical baptism occurs after death, then all it answers is the “how” of baptism of desire or blood. It doesn’t say that such a thing does not actually exist; it just answers or speculates upon what form it might take. (And I happen to agree that it will take tangible form, at that time.)

It would have to take place before death.

Also, keep in mind that there can be no such thing as a living person who has baptism of desire - if they consciously desire baptism in this life, then they have to make firm and detailed plans to physically get to a Church, and physically get wet.

Right.

If they then die on the way there, then we can say that they had “baptism of desire” but if they had kind of a vague idea of “maybe, some day,” but never actually did anything about it, then it’s difficult to say whether they could have had baptism of desire in any meaningful sense.

That’s not even a “desire for Baptism” much less a “Baptism of Desire.”

I have no more love for “liberals” than anyone else, but it’s possible to fall off the road and into the right-hand ditch, while criticizing and running away from those who have fallen into the left-hand ditch - our guide - our “center line” if you will - is the Vatican. By staying in line with the Vatican, we can avoid the ditches on both sides of the road. (And be loved by neither conservatives nor liberals, but we aren’t supposed to be seeking human favour, anyway.)

No. That doesn’t hold up. The Vatican can swing to the left and right and often does. The Magisterium which is different from “the Vatican” or “The Curia” or “The Heirarchy” is the anchor of orthodoxy.

Following the perennial Magisterium and listening for the magisterial voice of the Church in the heirarchy is the surest way to keep the faith and the truth.

 

[GerardP]

A portion of Feeney:
All those, therefore, who do not profess the Catholic Faith, or who do not participate in the sacraments of the Church or who do not submit to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, are not members of the Church and, therefore, cannot be saved.

Does this mean that every adult who is baptized outside the Catholic Church, or every baptized child who grows up and follows the heretical sect of his parents, cannot be saved? Yes, unless, before he dies, he repents and joins the Catholic Church.
FROM THE HOUSETOPS Vol. III, No. 3 Spring, 1949

You’ve either been suckered or you are trying to sucker people with this citation.

First, it’s not Fr. Feeney, it’s an article by Raymond Karam.

The entire article (it is very long) can be found here:

romancatholicism.org/reply-to-a-liberal.htm

Second, you’ve left out any supporting evidence that the article supplies to support it’s position.

It’s been clipped right before:

"Yes, unless, before he dies, he repents and joins the Catholic Church. Let us see what the Fathers and Doctors of the Church have to say on this point.

St Fulgentius says:

“Whether in the Catholic Church or in any heretical or schismatical church, if anyone receives the sacrament of baptism, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he receives the integral sacrament; but salvation, which is the power of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has received the same sacrament outside the Catholic Church. Thus, therefore, he must return to the Church, not that he might receive the sacrament of baptism anew, which no one ought to repeat in any baptized man, but that, being now in Catholic society, he might receive eternal life, which can never, in any way, be obtained by one who, with the sacrament of baptism, would remain a stranger to the Catholic Church.”[xxxi]

Again, St. Fulgentius says:

“Hold most firmly, and do not doubt at all, that the sacrament of baptism can be, not only in the Catholic Church, but also among the heretics who baptize in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, but that outside the Catholic Church it cannot profit. Nay, rather, as in the Church salvation is conferred by the sacrament of baptism to those who believe rightly, so to those baptized outside the Church, if they do not return to the Church, destruction is completely fulfilled by the same baptism. For, the unity of this Ecclesiastical society is of such value for salvation, that he is not saved by baptism to whom it has not been given where it ought to have been given.”[xxxii]

Again:

“Hold most firmly, and do not doubt at all, that everyone baptized outside the Catholic Church cannot be made partaker of eternal life, if before the end of this earthly life, he does not return to the Catholic Church and become incorporated with it.”[xxxiii]

The same St. Fulgentius says:

“Hold most firmly, and do not doubt at all, that not only all the pagans, but also all the Jews, and all the heretics and schismatics who end the present life outside the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Mt. 25,41)”[xxxiv]

Following that are quotes from Augustine, Bonaventure, Bellarmine, Peter Canisius, Pope Boniface, Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Ignatius of Antioch, Pope Pius XI and the Council of Florence.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

…they have to make firm and detailed plans to physically get to a Church, and physically get wet.

Right.

Was the ‘good thief’ baptized before he went to paradise?

 

[GerardP]

Was the ‘good thief’ baptized before he went to paradise?

It wasn’t necessary. He would have been saved under the Old Covenant. Tradition refers to him as “St. Dismas.”

The Catechism of the Council of Trent explains:

**Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ’s Resurrection **

The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

This is inferred from the authority of the Prince of the Apostles when he says: Who hath regenerated us into a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead;’ and also from what Paul says of the Church: He delivered himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. By both Apostles the obligation of Baptism seems to be referred to the time which followed the death of our Lord. Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion.

 

[TMC]

Also, keep in mind that there can be no such thing as a living person who has baptism of desire - if they consciously desire baptism in this life, then they have to make firm and detailed plans to physically get to a Church, and physically get wet. If they then die on the way there, then we can say that they had “baptism of desire” but if they had kind of a vague idea of “maybe, some day,” but never actually did anything about it, then it’s difficult to say whether they could have had baptism of desire in any meaningful sense.

That’s not even a “desire for Baptism” much less a “Baptism of Desire.”

This is not what the Church teaches. Even someone who never hears the name of Christ can be saved by Baptism of Desire. From the Catechism:

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[jmcrae]

It would have to take place before death.

So, in your view there is no hope for anyone who dies before baptism? This means that the Catechumens of olden times who were martyred for the Christian faith died in their sins and went to Hell - is that what you believe? Or are you under the impression that they were somehow able to receive a physical baptism before death?

 

[GerardP]

This is not what the Church teaches. Even someone who never hears the name of Christ can be saved by Baptism of Desire. From the Catechism:

Oh, how I wish people would not rely on the miserable CCC. You cannot learn the Catholic faith from it. It’s editorials are designed to lead you away from the correct conclusion.

Quote:
1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

This is correct. God offers to all the possibility of entering His Church.

Now for the ever conflicted editorial that follows every doctrinal statement in the CCC:

62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

Yes. He can be brought into the Church before death. God can pull it off in spite of our inability to figure out the logistics.

It **may be supposed **that such persons **would have desired **Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

But the problem is, it’s not necessary if they didn’t need it. Necessary means necessary not contingent.

These editorials in the CCC are the worst modernist junk imaginable.

Fr. Malachi Martin described the CCC very well as a “scam” he said he got his first edition in French and went through it page by page underlining everything that was Catholic in red. He said, “It’s all there. Everything that Gregory the Great or Leo XIII or Innocent III would have agreed with. But when you look at it with all of the red, you ask yourself, 'what’s the other stuff?” And he said, “The answer is a dizzying display of confused language designed to soften the faith and make things easy.” He described it as destroying the clarity of the faith.

He then recommended the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

And he was right, it’s “THE” Catechism as far as catechisms go.

Cardinal Schonborn who was instrumental in the production of the CCC even asked people to read the Trent Catechism.