Salvation for Non-Catholics

[Jim_Dandy]

It is not my job to judge hearts. It is my job to speak the truth.

I have, personally, seen God perform miracles many, many times. The first thing that must be present, in every case, is faith. Talking to someone about what I have seen God do in the past (as I did above) captures their attention and builds hope that it might just happen to them. That creates the atmosphere for a seed of faith to be planted (Jesus said a seed of faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain)

I prayed for a skate boarder about 10 days ago that could not bend his knee. He got off the bus. We sat there at the bus stop and we started a conversation … I told him that I had seen people get healed lots of times if they ask Jesus to heal them. He was in a lot of pain and very willing to give Jesus a chance. I prayed in Jesus name … The kid stood up and turned around completely amazed … his knee worked perfectly and no pain. I said, hey, You can hit the skate park this afternoon.
The point is this … a few words in the right direction opens the heart. The person can reject and refuse… of course … but that does not in any way negate the solid truth that God will always respond to an open heart.

I’ll believe it when at least one qualified medical doctor examines the ‘before’ and ‘after’ x-rays and pronounces that a miraculous healing took place.

 

[1voice]

I’ll believe it when at least one qualified medical doctor examines the ‘before’ and ‘after’ x-rays and pronounces that a miraculous healing took place.

Doctors? … Doctors didnt believe in washing their hands after handling dead diseased bodies … and then delivering babies in the next room …until a little over a hundred years ago… and when it was proven to them they still resisted the simple act for another 30 or 40 years … the one single act that saved more lives during that time than any other.
… and the (overwhelmingly) biggest violators of the hand washing rule in hospitals… right now / today … are medical doctors. It has been found that the only way to get them to comply is by humiliating them by posting their name on the non compliance list.

… Theres no rule here that says you are required to believe anything anyone says.
I have gotten your response, with strong force attached … from close family members on a regular basis for many years… But guess who they call when they test positive for cancer… and guess who they call when the doctor cant find a trace during the operation.
I could go on for quite a while telling of dramatic healing that I have experienced in my own body of things for which doctors could do nothing.

I clearly understand your position … But I also clearly understand mine. After years of experience… there is no contest … doesnt matter what anyone says.

I have heard and can attest to the fact … You can believe … or disbelieve … either way you are right.

Jesus, before he healed, said … Fear not / only believe … he said it for a specific reason … he discerned it in the person wanting help … fact is … doubt and fear quench faith in less than a heart beat. One cannot exist in the presence of the other.

I have felt intense power of God to heal … yet (more than once) the person walked away unhealed … simply because they did not believe.

 

[1voice]

Doctors? … Doctors didnt believe in washing their hands after handling dead diseased bodies … and then delivering babies in the next room …until a little over a hundred years ago… and when it was proven to them they still resisted the simple act for another 30 or 40 years … the one single act that saved more lives during that time than any other.
… and the (overwhelmingly) biggest violators of the hand washing rule in hospitals… right now / today … are medical doctors. It has been found that the only way to get them to comply is by humiliating them by posting their name on the non compliance list.

I have heard and can attest to the fact … You can believe … or disbelieve … either way you are right.

Jesus, before he healed, said … Fear not / only believe … he said it for a specific reason … fact is … doubt and fear quench faith in less than a heart beat. One cannot exist in the presence of the other.

I have felt intense power of God to heal … yet (more than once) the person walked away unhealed … simply because they did not believe.

… Theres no rule here that says you are required to believe anything anyone says.
I have gotten your response, with strong force attached … from close family members on a regular basis for many years… But guess who they call when they test positive for cancer… and guess who they call when the doctor cant find a trace during the operation.
I could go on for quite a while telling of dramatic healing that I have experienced in my own body of things for which doctors could do nothing.

I clearly understand your position … But I also clearly understand mine. After years of experience… there is no contest … doesnt matter what anyone says.

 

[PRmerger]

Doctors? …** Doctors didnt believe in washing their hands** after handling dead diseased bodies … and then delivering babies in the next room …until a little over a hundred years ago…

Well, this is not quite true that “doctor’s didn’t believe in washing their hands.” What you mean is that doctors didn’t know that hand washing was life-saving. No one did, really. (Now, of course, there were some people–midwives probably–who were putting 2 and 2 together and starting hypothesizing about germ theory, but, really, everyone practiced the same poor hygiene.) It wasn’t the case that doctors were being resistant to science, as you are implying.

Doctors were only following what was the commonly understood science–and no one, essentially, washed their hands.

 

[Dan_Daly]

While salvation outside of the visible Church may be possible, it is not something either Catholics or non-Catholics should rely upon.

The following propositions were condemned as heresy by Bl. Pope Pius IX.

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. – Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

There is no salavation outside of the Church. Someone may become a member of the Church in such a manner that they are not a member of the visible Church (as by a baptism by desire) so no one else would know they have, but they’re still a member of the Church.

Belief in the mercy of God does not remove belief in His justice, and the possibility of salavation for those outside the visible Church should not turn into presumption.

Pax Christi

 

[pablope]

I only repeated God’s own solid promise … and affirmed/ testified of my own personal experience as well as other’s …

I am standing firm in the truth that God stated ( we overcome the enemy by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony - Rev 12:11) …The point is this … a few words in the right direction opens the heart. The person can reject and refuse… of course … but that does not in any way negate the solid truth that God will always respond to an open heart.

But he also said…

Heb 13…17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

And also…this from 1Sam 15…22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

 

[LowerCasec]

Dear Brandon Rimmer,

I saw your post on page 1.

Duely noted.

 

[1voice]

Well, this is not quite true that “doctor’s didn’t believe in washing their hands.” What you mean is that doctors didn’t know that hand washing was life-saving. No one did, really. (Now, of course, there were some people–midwives probably–who were putting 2 and 2 together and starting hypothesizing about germ theory, but, really, everyone practiced the same poor hygiene.) It wasn’t the case that doctors were being resistant to science, as you are implying.

Doctors were only following what was the commonly understood science–and no one, essentially, washed their hands.

I have nothing against doctors… a pretty good one was present the day I was born…

My point is that God has been healing people long before doctors knew to wash their right hand with their left.

 

[1voice]

I never performed a miracle in my life.
I deal with skepticism all the time. Its a lot easier than dealing with the things that plagued me for the first 25 or so years of my life.
I had severe migraines for 10 years, debilitating arthritis of the spine and neck, scoliosis (curvature of the spine ) that caused chest pains, severe allergies… all of the above led to a battle against exhaustion and depression. Life was a serious struggle and doctors could do nothing. I prayed and asked Jesus to heal me. Long story short… he answered my prayer … and in the process I learned how to pray for others.

 

[1voice]

I have a strong faith in the power of Jesus to heal after he healed me as I describe above. … No apologies.

 

[PRmerger]

I have nothing against doctors… a pretty good one was present the day I was born…

Oh, I didn’t think you had anything against doctors, 1voice. :nope:

My point is that God has been healing people long before doctors knew to wash their right hand with their left.

Well, to be frank, 1voice, that is a point that’s of no import. Are you under the misapprehension that there’s any Christian on this forum who thinks otherwise?

It’s like your saying, “My point is that Jesus died to save our sins!”, as if you’re offering something new and insightful that everyone here has disagreed with.

Yep, we all know that God heals and has been doing this long before doctors knew to wash their hands.

You just made it appear as if doctors were told that washing hands was life-saving, but didn’t believe it. I just wanted to correct that piece of misinformation.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I never performed a miracle in my life.

No, but you claim God “uses you” for healing. No offense, but If God wishes to heal a person, He doesn’t need you or Benny Hinn or anyone else. He is quite capable of healing whom He wills all by Himself.

Catholics are required to believe the miracles that are recorded in the Scriptures. Those that have been investigated and approved by the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world may be believed, but belief is not required.

'Scuse me for not believing you without confirmation. Your stories of healing – and others – remain merely anecdotal without proof. Careful that the deadly sin of pride is not involved in your assessment.

 

[1voice]

Oh, I didn’t think you had anything against doctors, 1voice. :nope:

Well, to be frank, 1voice, that is a point that’s of no import. Are you under the misapprehension that there’s any Christian on this forum who thinks otherwise?

It’s like your saying, “My point is that Jesus died to save our sins!”, as if you’re offering something new and insightful that everyone here has disagreed with.

Yep, we all know that God heals and has been doing this long before doctors knew to wash their hands.

You just made it appear as if doctors were told that washing hands was life-saving, but didn’t believe it. I just wanted to correct that piece of misinformation.

While Dr. Semmelweis’ solution worked immediately and caused death rates to plummet, it also threatened and enraged the medical establishment. Doctors resisted any suggestions from an upstart junior colleague, and found the whole concept of forced hand washing ”humiliating”. Consequently, the vast majority of Vienna’s medical establishment worked feverishly to wash their hands of Ignaz Semmelweis, rather than wash their hands to save patients’ lives.

After enduring years of personal and professional persecution in Vienna, Dr. Semmelweis returned to Hungary where he again faced ridicule and rejection from that country’s medical establishment. Nonetheless, he successfully instituted his hand-washing protocal in a local hospital and, as had happened in Austria, death rates from childbed fever decreased dramatically. Sadly, though, he died in a sanitarium at age 47 haunted, some say, by the screams of those women he could not save.

alliedarts-foundation.org/jim-berry/

 

[PRmerger]

While Dr. Semmelweis’ solution worked immediately and caused death rates to plummet, it also threatened and enraged the medical establishment. Doctors resisted any suggestions from an upstart junior colleague, and found the whole concept of forced hand washing ”humiliating”. Consequently, the vast majority of Vienna’s medical establishment worked feverishly to wash their hands of Ignaz Semmelweis, rather than wash their hands to save patients’ lives.

After enduring years of personal and professional persecution in Vienna, Dr. Semmelweis returned to Hungary where he again faced ridicule and rejection from that country’s medical establishment. Nonetheless, he successfully instituted his hand-washing protocal in a local hospital and, as had happened in Austria, death rates from childbed fever decreased dramatically. Sadly, though, he died in a sanitarium at age 47 haunted, some say, by the screams of those women he could not save.

alliedarts-foundation.org/jim-berry/

Sorry, but that is just a ridiculous conjecture and I give no credence to the above data.

 

[1voice]

No, but you claim God “uses you” for healing. No offense, but If God wishes to heal a person, He doesn’t need you or Benny Hinn or anyone else. He is quite capable of healing whom He wills all by Himself.

Catholics are required to believe the miracles that are recorded in the Scriptures. Those that have been investigated and approved by the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world may be believed, but belief is not required.

'Scuse me for not believing you without confirmation. Your stories of healing – and others – remain merely anecdotal without proof. Careful that the deadly sin of pride is not involved in your assessment.

Your rabbit trail that attempts to conflate me with a person that you clearly must know raises hackles around here is humorous.
Im not a TV preacher and I dont play one on TV …
I trust Jesus and he loves me and provided for me in my need … If that offends you … cant help that.

I am not attempting in any way to tempt you away from your religion.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Your rabbit trail that attempts to conflate me with a person that you clearly must know raises hackles around here is humorous.
Im not a TV preacher and I dont play one on TV …
I trust Jesus and he loves me and provided for me in my need … If that offends you … cant help that.

I am not attempting in any way to tempt you away from your religion.

I’m sorry you misunderstand – I did not accuse you of “tempting” me to leave the Church… Nor did I accuse you of being a TV preacher. I merely pointed out that your opinion that your prayer for a skateboarder at a bus stop resulted in his healing doesn’t make it true. If God healed you, in answer to your prayer, that’s great. I didn’t comment on your own healing. That’s between you and God.

Peace be with you.

 

[david_ruiz]

Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

 

[GaryTaylor]

HailHolyQueen90;9266170:

Yes, by faith in the precious blood of the LambYes, by faith in the precious blood of the Lamb, that they looked forward to ( “He led captivity captive” ,to heaven after His death/resurrection).

If they rejected the gospel, going to hell. If never heard it, will be judged accordingly to law all men have access to that Paul tells of, that man has no excuse ,His testimonies are everywhere ,in nature etc.

Cross=Communion with God once again. I agree His testimonies are everywhere, I would like to believe its how very good souls obtain salvation whom never heard of the Bible.

Creates more questions than answers with those who have heard and reject the Word.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well, this is not quite true that “doctor’s didn’t believe in washing their hands.” What you mean is that doctors didn’t know that hand washing was life-saving. No one did, really. (Now, of course, there were some people–midwives probably–who were putting 2 and 2 together and starting hypothesizing about germ theory, but, really, everyone practiced the same poor hygiene.) It wasn’t the case that doctors were being resistant to science, as you are implying.

Doctors were only following what was the commonly understood science–and no one, essentially, washed their hands.

With the exception of one Dr. Lister. And he was laughed at and mocked until he ended up in a mental hospital. That is Dr. Lister of Listerine fame. I learned that in grad school. I can’t remember the name of the class. But I’ve never forgotten Dr. Lister and how he died in shame and was right the whole time. Poor Dr. Lister.

 

[PRmerger]

With the exception of one Dr. Lister. And he was laughed at and mocked until he ended up in a mental hospital. That is Dr. Lister of Listerine fame. I learned that in grad school. I can’t remember the name of the class. But I’ve never forgotten Dr. Lister and how he died in shame and was right the whole time. Poor Dr. Lister.

Yes, his name was mentioned earlier. According to this story he died “haunted” by the screams of the women he couldn’t save.

That there were doctors who didn’t believe Dr. Lister, I have no doubt.

But that doctors were informed that washing hands was life-saving but just chose to ignore that, I am quite skeptical.