Salvation for Non-Catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter HailHolyQueen90
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, his name was mentioned earlier. According to this story he died “haunted” by the screams of the women he couldn’t save. :rolleyes:

That there were doctors who didn’t believe Dr. Lister, I have no doubt.

But that doctors were informed that washing hands was life-saving but just chose to ignore that, I am quite skeptical.
I’m in med school and I have actually heard from many of my professors that there were doctors back then that did reject the idea of washing their hands. They mainly rejected the idea because they did not believe there was enough evidence and even with proof a lot of doctors still chose to ignore it. Interestingly enough, doctors were also spreading bacteria and viruses from their ties!
 
I’m in med school and I have actually heard from many of my professors that there were doctors back then that did reject the idea of washing their hands. They mainly rejected the idea because they did not believe there was enough evidence and **even with proof **a lot of doctors still chose to ignore it. Interestingly enough, doctors were also spreading bacteria and viruses from their ties!
Can you share what proof it was that these doctors chose to ignore?
 
Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

Will Jews, God’s chosen for the first covenant, make it to heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

If Jesus Christ founded one true Church, what happens to those who are outside of it?

What are pre and post Vatican II views on this?

Please show me references, I hear different things from different people and I want at least some sort of official straight answer, if there even is one.
There’s this story of a Christian who died and went to the pearly gates of heaven and there, met Peter.
As he was about to give Peter a high five and walk right in, Peter says, " whoa wait a minute."
There is a matter of 100 points to enter into heaven.
Surprised, he thought to himself, ““hmmm, I never heard of this in Sunday school””
And so, St. Peter asks what he has done in his earthly life to obtain these 100 points…

Well, I went to church every Sunday

Peter says, " one point"

He says, " I also visited the sick in the hospital and in prison and gave alms to the poor"…

Peter says, " one point"…
  • " and I was a deacon in my church"…
-" one point…"

By now the poor man wonders out loud, " boy, I guess one can only get into heaven by the grace of God!"…

Peter says, " 97 points- come on in!!".
 
Can you share what proof it was that these doctors chose to ignore?
Ignaz Semmelweis. He is the one who came up with the idea of hand washing. Around the 1800s many pregnant women were dying from puerperal fever which is an infection that women got while they were giving birth. Semmelweis noticed that the number of women that were dying from that fever and that were being taken care of by doctors who would do autopsies in the morning was much greater than women who had midwives or who had doctors who only had 1 patient for the day. Even when Pasteur discovered the germ theory there were still some doctors that were skeptical. If you read some journals from the late 1800s you will see some doctors that flat out rejected that idea.
 
Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

Will Jews, God’s chosen for the first covenant, make it to heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

If Jesus Christ founded one true Church, what happens to those who are outside of it?

What are pre and post Vatican II views on this?

Please show me references, I hear different things from different people and I want at least some sort of official straight answer, if there even is one.
The Lord said: “Repent and believe in the Gospel. No one comes to the Father except through Me”.
Repentance, **faith **in the lordship and salvific work of Christ and baptism. These are the three criteria of making it to heaven. There is no short cut, and no humanism that can save us.
This is what we have to deal with and act on. Jesus said; make disciples out of all nations.

What happens to those who don’t believe. He didn’t say to find loop holes but to evangelize those. God will give everyone a fair chance at going through the Door, Jesus Christ.
Sin cannot be in the presense of God, and only the Blood of Jesus can wash us clean. So the people who reject Christ are in danger, which the Church has also always taught.

Official straight answer you are looking for. The short answer is study the New Testament, its the only inspired wrritings we have. They will tell you the truth to your questions.
 
Ignaz Semmelweis. He is the one who came up with the idea of hand washing. Around the 1800s many pregnant women were dying from puerperal fever which is an infection that women got while they were giving birth. Semmelweis noticed that the number of women that were dying from that fever and that were being taken care of by doctors who would do autopsies in the morning was much greater than women who had midwives or who had doctors who only had 1 patient for the day. Even when Pasteur discovered the germ theory there were still some doctors that were skeptical. If you read some journals from the late 1800s you will see some doctors that flat out rejected that idea.
Right. But I’d like to know what evidence they were provided with that they rejected.

Surely it wasn’t just, “Well, when I washed my hands before that delivery, the mom and babe did fine. And when I didn’t wash my hands before that delivery, mom and babe fared poorly.”

What evidence did Dr. Semmelweis provide his colleagues that they chose to ignore?
 
one of my fave Priests once said that one good thing about heaven was that “…in the end we will all be Catholics…” haha

😛
 
Right. But I’d like to know what evidence they were provided with that they rejected.

Surely it wasn’t just, “Well, when I washed my hands before that delivery, the mom and babe did fine. And when I didn’t wash my hands before that delivery, mom and babe fared poorly.”

What evidence did Dr. Semmelweis provide his colleagues that they chose to ignore?
Well, he did a study and the numbers that he got from that study is proof. He had proof that more people died when a doctor did an autopsy and didn’t wash his hands or had multiple patients than the doctors who didn’t do autopsies, helped deliver in the morning, or only had one patient. He told doctors about his study and told them to just try washing their hands and focusing on cleanliness and he was laughed at and called a crazy person. And like I said, Pasteur’s germ theory was rejected by many doctors in the late 1800s and many were even skeptical up into the early 1900s.
 
Well, he did a study and the numbers that he got from that study is proof. He had proof that more people died when a doctor did an autopsy and didn’t wash his hands or had multiple patients than the doctors who didn’t do autopsies, helped deliver in the morning, or only had one patient. He told doctors about his study and told them to just try washing their hands and focusing on cleanliness and he was laughed at and called a crazy person. And like I said, Pasteur’s germ theory was rejected by many doctors in the late 1800s and many were even skeptical up into the early 1900s.
Fair enough. I stand corrected. I guess some doctors did ignore the evidence.
 
HailHolyQueen90;9266170:
Yes, by faith in the precious blood of the LambYes, by faith in the precious blood of the Lamb, that they looked forward to ( “He led captivity captive” ,to heaven after His death/resurrection).

If they rejected the gospel, going to hell. If never heard it, will be judged accordingly to law all men have access to that Paul tells of, that man has no excuse ,His testimonies are everywhere ,in nature etc.
I agree with your post. Its Biblical and therefore Catholic.

Why did you leave the Catholic Church?

🙂
 
david ruiz;9325584:
I agree with your post. Its Biblical and therefore Catholic.

Why did you leave the Catholic Church?

🙂
Probably lusts of the flesh ,pull of the world ,but mainly it was frustrating and not quite “connecting” enough . Looking back that is because I was trying to be something I was not . I was not born again . I was tring in my own efforts ,trying to be good and Catholic, from within. After all I was taught the sacraments put me in good stead with God, and it certainly felt like it , but it was a lot of work, but made you feel good when accomplished (go to confession/communion/mass, rosary, first friday communion, etc., etc.). It is like when they asked Jesus what works could they do and he subtly said this is the work of the Father ,that you believe in Him whom He sent. It is God’s work , not something I can manufacture cause I’m supposed to be born again. Never quite got that message of grace, and if it was told me, I was to busy “doing” religious activity that made me feel good, yet when the storm came (lust,world,pride) what little ffaith, knowledge I had wahed away. Like Nicodemus, one can be quite religious, and yet not be regenerated inside…But please don’t misunderstand. I am eternally grateful for the seeds planted by my Catholic parents, priests, nuns, teachers, relatives etc. They just were not quite enough to birth me. And thank-you for the Baltimore Catechism, with one of it’s questions/answers that saved my life when I was deeply lost, What is faith ? Faith is a gift from God. Alleluia !
 
GraceDK;9348002:
Probably lusts of the flesh ,pull of the world ,but mainly it was frustrating and not quite “connecting” enough . Looking back that is because I was trying to be something I was not . I was not born again . I was tring in my own efforts ,trying to be good and Catholic, from within. After all I was taught the sacraments put me in good stead with God, and it certainly felt like it , but it was a lot of work, but made you feel good when accomplished (go to confession/communion/mass, rosary, first friday communion, etc., etc.). It is like when they asked Jesus what works could they do and he subtly said this is the work of the Father ,that you believe in Him whom He sent. It is God’s work , not something I can manufacture cause I’m supposed to be born again. Never quite got that message of grace, and if it was told me, I was to busy “doing” religious activity that made me feel good, yet when the storm came (lust,world,pride) what little ffaith, knowledge I had wahed away. Like Nicodemus, one can be quite religious, and yet not be regenerated inside…But please don’t misunderstand. I am eternally grateful for the seeds planted by my Catholic parents, priests, nuns, teachers, relatives etc. They just were not quite enough to birth me. And thank-you for the Baltimore Catechism, with one of it’s questions/answers that saved my life when I was deeply lost, What is faith ?
Faith is a gift from God. Alleluia !

Hm, sad that you left Catholicism. My theory is that sometimes we need to get into another setting in order to hear and see what was there all along. Like you took up the Baltimore Catechism whereas you should have opened the Bible. Its all inthere. A personal relationship with Jesus is something that cannot be earned. When that happens you are unable to live like you did before, you have conviction in your heart because of the sins and ways of the world which before didn’t bother you etc.
I grew up Lutheran… the Bible was not far away… but guess who evangelised me at the defining moment? The Orthodox and Catholics. I had even been in Evangelical churches before but felt disconnected and ackward among them. After my conversion experience which was like going from existing into LIFE, I suddenly felt great wherever Christ was preached and loved, whatever the name of the Church.
I was burning inside… even the Pentecostalists said I was more Pentecostal than they were. It was a great high for a long time. So much grace. Also grace to read for hours, Bible and other books and talk to people and truly search. Somewhere a shorter while later, I had the grace to believe that the Sacraments are really what the Catholic Church says. I could have no peace without having them in my life, in my body:)
Falling into the Church the Scripture made sense to me much more. There are truly passages and verses that are only explained credibly in and by the Catholic Church. However, there are also great weaknesses in the Catholic Church. The Pope said: the crisis in the Church is a crisis of faith… The Evangelicals have long rubbed our noses in that and said we have rituals but lack the power. There is some truth to that. I think all Christians need to repent and work for more unity…

Sorry. I am babbling. Happy to hear you got out of your sinful life… ongoing repentance and faith… Jesus is our only Hope and He is our Peace:) Hope you find some good discussions on these Catholic Forums 🙂
 
GraceDK;9348002:
Probably lusts of the flesh ,pull of the world ,but mainly it was frustrating and not quite “connecting” enough . Looking back that is because I was trying to be something I was not . I was not born again . I was tring in my own efforts ,trying to be good and Catholic, from within. After all I was taught the sacraments put me in good stead with God, and it certainly felt like it , but it was a lot of work, but made you feel good when accomplished (go to confession/communion/mass, rosary, first friday communion, etc., etc.). It is like when they asked Jesus what works could they do and he subtly said this is the work of the Father ,that you believe in Him whom He sent. It is God’s work , not something I can manufacture cause I’m supposed to be born again. Never quite got that message of grace, and if it was told me, I was to busy “doing” religious activity that made me feel good, yet when the storm came (lust,world,pride) what little ffaith, knowledge I had wahed away. Like Nicodemus, one can be quite religious, and yet not be regenerated inside…But please don’t misunderstand. I am eternally grateful for the seeds planted by my Catholic parents, priests, nuns, teachers, relatives etc. They just were not quite enough to birth me. And thank-you for the Baltimore Catechism, with one of it’s questions/answers that saved my life when I was deeply lost, What is faith ?
Faith is a gift from God. Alleluia !

Your experience is common.

Raised Catholic but ultimately teens focus more on being teens than Catholic. So you fall away, then later in life you turn back to God as you mature. Then…living in a Protestant nation, Protestants are quick to tell you the reason you fell away from Catholicism is b/c Catholisim is wrong and you must be born again.

I had a similiar experience. However, the Eucharist kept me Catholic.

Don’t leave Catholic Answers Forum. Keep exploring.

Kind regards,

James
 
Well I was shocked to find out that apparently- anybody can receive salvation no matter their beliefs or lack thereof. This means anybody who is a non-christian can apparently make it into heaven without Jesus. I thought he said he was the only way to the father, but maybe he was wrong?

I posted a thread about the afterlife for non-christians and somebody posted that under the CC, apparently anybody can receive salvation, even non-christians. Yes, this includes atheists.

It was news to me.
 
My dear brother PumpkinSeed 🙂

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church, his Mystical Body. However neither is the saving grace of Christ restricted to physical members of the Church, nor is membership in the Catholic Church restricted to Christians who are formally baptized with water.

God wishes that all could come to an explicit knowledge of revealed truth but for a variety of reasons, this is not always possible. As the Bible says:

"…I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me…This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth…For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe…"
  • (1 Timothy 1:13.2:4:10)
From this divinely revealed book of Sacred Scripture we learn that:
  • God is merciful to those who act “ignorantly in unbelief”, those who like Paul was with Judaism are sincere in their errors, however wrong.
  • When Paul had been acting “ignorantly” and persecuting Christians he had been fully aware of their existence and basic teachings; demonstrating that invincible ignorance is not to do with having “heard” the Gospel but having “understood” it on a personal level and realized that is true and necessary for salvation
  • God is the Saviour of “All people” and get this part, “especially of those who believe” - but note NOT “ONLY”!
The Holy Spirit is not restricted to the confines of the Visible Church but is present mysteriously in every human heart.

There are seeds of the Word (logos spermatikos) according to Church Fathers such as Saint Justin Martyr and Saint Clement of Alexandria in all world religions.

Every human being has the Logos (Jesus) present mysteriously through the power of the Holy Spirit in his conscience, that natural, God-given law.

*(continued…) *
 
The best description of the subject of salvation and Seeds of the Word in religions from a Catholic perspective was given, I believe, by Blessed Pope John Paul II. Here is what he said:

"…I have wished to recall the ancient doctrine formulated by the Fathers of the Church, which says that we must recognize “the seeds of the Word” present and active in the various religions (Ad gentes, n. 11; Lumen gentium, n. 17). This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life” (Redemptor hominis, n. 11).

The “seeds of truth” present and active in the various religious traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into world” (cf. Jn 1:9) and who became flesh in Christ Jesus (cf. Jn 1:14). They are together an “effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills” (Jn 3:8; cf. Redemptor hominis, nn. 6, 12).

Every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God’s Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions.

In every authentic religious experience, the most characteristic expression is prayer. Because of the human spirit’s constitutive openness to God’s action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that “every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person”. We experienced an eloquent manifestation of this truth at the World Day of Prayer for Peace on 27 October 1986 in Assisi, and on other similar occasions of great spiritual intensity.
  1. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. “The Spirit’s presence and activity”, as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions” (n. 28). Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history.
Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).

Indeed, as the Second Vatican Council teaches, “since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of coming into contact, in a way known to God, with the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et spes, n. 22).

This possibility is achieved through sincere, inward adherence to the Truth, generous self-giving to one’s neighbour and the search for the Absolute inspired by the Spirit of God. A ray of the divine Wisdom is also shown through the fulfilment of the precepts and practices that conform to the moral law and to authentic religious sense. Precisely by virtue of the Spirit’s presence and action, the good elements found in the various religions mysteriously prepare hearts to receive the full revelation of God in Christ.

For the reasons mentioned here, the attitude of the Church and of individual Christians towards other religions is marked by sincere respect, profound sympathy and, when possible and appropriate, cordial collaboration. This does not mean forgetting that Jesus Christ is the one Mediator and Saviour of the human race. Nor does it mean lessening our missionary efforts, to which we are bound in obedience to the risen Lord’s command…The attitude of respect and dialogue is instead the proper recognition of the “seeds of the Word” and the “groanings of the Spirit”…May the Spirit of truth and love, in view of the third millennium now close at hand, guide us on the paths of the proclamation of Jesus Christ and of the dialogue of peace and brotherhood with the followers of all religions!.."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience Address, September 16, 1998, Vatican
 
Well I was shocked to find out that apparently- anybody can receive salvation no matter their beliefs or lack thereof. This means anybody who is a non-christian can apparently make it into heaven without Jesus. I thought he said he was the only way to the father, but maybe he was wrong?

I posted a thread about the afterlife for non-christians and somebody posted that under the CC, apparently anybody can receive salvation, even non-christians. Yes, this includes atheists.

It was news to me.
You will have to find the post that says that anybody can achieve salvation, no matter what their beliefs.

Could you please cite that?

And even better, could you please cite the teaching from the Magisterium that declares this to be true.

The Catholic position is, and has always been, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Now, to be sure, salvation is for* everyone,* but they must be joined to the Church in order to be saved.
 
You will have to find the post that says that anybody can achieve salvation, no matter what their beliefs.

Could you please cite that?

And even better, could you please cite the teaching from the Magisterium that declares this to be true.

The Catholic position is, and has always been, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Now, to be sure, salvation is for* everyone,* but they must be joined to the Church in order to be saved.
Some guy in the other thread posted that people outside the church can be saved & make it into heaven. He would be the one to ask as he is the one who said it. I asked the question and he answered me with that saying others who have other beliefs and even atheists can achieve salvation and go into heaven. So, basically that means there is salvation outside of the church.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680135
 
Some guy in the other thread posted that people outside the church can be saved & make it into heaven.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680135
That would be me 🙂

If you read a little bit down, to post 12, you will see that I clearly stated:

“…the Catholic Church teaches that no other religion but the Catholic Church can grant salvation. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, so I think that you are wrong to say that other belief systems are “unlikely” to grant salvation, they can’t ipso facto by their very nature. Salvation comes to people outside the Church through their spiritual baptism into the Church through following the Will of God as known to their conscience…”

That is if they are invincibly ignorant (through no fault of their own).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top