Salvation for Non-Catholics

[PumpkinSeed]

That would be me

If you read a little bit down, to post 12, you will see that I clearly stated:

“…the Catholic Church teaches that no other religion but the Catholic Church can grant salvation. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, so I think that you are wrong to say that other belief systems are “unlikely” to grant salvation, they can’t ipso facto by their very nature. Salvation comes to people outside the Church through their spiritual baptism into the Church through following the Will of God as known to their conscience…”

You said atheists and people of other beliefs can make it into heaven with salvation. If they convert, yes, I agree. But you asserted that they can get salvation without being a Christian. I’m not sure how that’s possible, but okay.

 

[Vouthon]

And, of course, that is true.

But that is quite a bit different than saying what you proffered: “anybody can receive salvation no matter their beliefs or lack thereof.”

Indeed. What our brother Pumpkin posited is the heresy of religious indifferentism/pluralism

He has evidently misunderstood me as I would rather damn myself to hell than ever proclaim that.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

And, of course, that is true, provided that they are joined to the Church in a spiritual way.

But that is quite a bit different than saying what you proffered: “anybody can receive salvation no matter their beliefs or lack thereof.”

Actually its saying the same thing. He said people outside the church can get into heaven with salvation. That would include people “no matter their beliefs or lack thereof”. I’m not sure how that’s possible though.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Indeed. What our brother Pumpkin posited is the heresy of religious indifferentism/pluralism

He has evidently misunderstood me as I would rather damn myself to hell than ever proclaim that.

I am female, and you said that atheists or people outside of the church can receive salvation without being a Christian.

 

[Vouthon]

You said atheists and people of other beliefs can make it into heaven with salvation. If they convert, yes, I agree. But you asserted that they can get salvation without being a Christian. I’m not sure how that’s possible, but okay.

Yes atheists and people of other beliefs who are actually spiritual members of the Catholic Church without being aware of it

They are joined to the Church through a perfect act of love/contrition which consists in following the Will of God as known to the dictates of their conscience, as best as they possibly can. In this way they receive salvation in Christ and are baptized by implicit baptism of desire into the Catholic Church.

They are therefore actually Catholics, even though they be unaware of this.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed. What our brother Pumpkin posited is the heresy of religious indifferentism/pluralism

He has evidently misunderstood me as I would rather damn myself to hell than ever proclaim that.

So, see, Pumpkin Seed? It’s apparent that it’s no Catholic that you quoted was stating that anyone can get to heaven, no matter what their belief, or lack thereof.

I hope that you can now amend your misinterpretation.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

So, see, Pumpkin Seed? It’s apparent that it’s no Catholic that you quoted was stating that anyone can get to heaven, no matter what their belief, or lack thereof.

I hope that you can now amend your misinterpretation.

He said that people can get salvation & make it into heaven without being a Christian.

That means that you can get salvation outside of the church. I have no idea how that’s possible, but it is what he is saying.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Yes atheists and people of other beliefs who are actually spiritual members of the Catholic Church without being aware of it

They are joined to the Church through a perfect act of love/contrition which consists in following the Will of God as known to the dictates of their conscience, as best as they possibly can. In this way they receive salvation in Christ and are baptized by implicit baptism of desire into the Catholic Church.

They are therefore actually Catholics, even though they be unaware of this.

Ok, so now you’re changing it up a bit. you just said that there is no salvation outside of the church but you’re saying that everyone is actually a Catholic, which means everyone is in the church which would would make your first point irrelevant. But if they are not saved, apparently they are still saved.

If that’s the case then nobody after the crucifixion is going to hell, because they are just all saved even if they’re not Christian, because you say everybody is Catholic.

 

[Vouthon]

I am female, and you said that atheists or people outside of the church can receive salvation without being a Christian.

My apologies, I referred to you as brother/sister in another post but was simply writing quickly just there. My dear sister, I am not a pluralist. One cannot attain to salvation by being a Jew, atheist, Baha’i, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. One can only attain to salvation if they are a member of the Catholic Church.

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience.

This was explained by, of all people, the arch-traditionalist Marcel Lefebvre - hopefully his words will demonstrate to you that this is genuine Catholic teaching:

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)

Now do you get it?

 

[Vouthon]

Ok, so now you’re changing it up a bit. you just said that there is no salvation outside of the church but you’re saying that everyone is actually a Catholic, which means everyone is in the church which would would make your first point irrelevant. But if they are not saved, apparently they are still saved.

If that’s the case then nobody after the crucifixion is going to hell, because they are just all saved even if they’re not Christian, because you say everybody is Catholic.

I never said everyone was a Catholic I said its possible for those bodily outside the Church who are members of other religions to become spiritually joined to the Church as invisible members through the Grace of God and the universal action of the Holy Spirit who is mysteriously present in all human hearts. Such people are Catholics even if they aren’t aware of this.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

One cannot attain to salvation by being a Jew, atheist, Baha’i, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. One can only attain to salvation if they are a member of the Catholic Church.

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience.

Exactly, so you are saying that people who aren’t Christian are actually Christian because everyone is Catholic which means everyone has salvation even if they aren’t really saved.

So you’re saying no matter the belief or the lack thereof (athiests), they will still all make it into heaven because they are all saved and actually Catholic even if they choose not to be one or live like one.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I never said everyone was a Catholic …
Such people (atheists & non-believers) are Catholics even if they aren’t aware of this.

You said everyone is part of the church whether they know it or not. Well, the church is the Catholic church so basically that means everyone is Catholic.

Well, there you go. You just said it. You are contradicting yourself

 

[Vouthon]

Exactly, so you are saying that people who aren’t Christian are actually Christian because everyone is Catholic which means everyone has salvation even if they aren’t really saved.

So you’re saying no matter the belief or the lack thereof (athiests), they will still all make it into heaven because they are all saved and actually Catholic even if they choose not to be one or live like one.

I can asure you, as God is my witness, that neither myself nor Archbishop Lefebvre are saying that everyone bodily outside the Church is a Catholic or the other things that you are suggesting above

We are saying that it is possible to be bodily outside the Church and a member of another religion while being spiritually a member of the Church and therefore to receive salvation through implicit baptism of desire which makes you a real, substantial member of the Catholic Church but not formally/bodily. And I explained that such people - and I don’t know how many of them there are - are Catholic.

Only God knows how many non-Christians are in this position, I obviously cannot say.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I can asure you, as God is my witness, that neither myself nor Archbishop Lefebvre are saying that everyone bodily outside the Church is a Catholic or the other things that you are suggesting above

We are saying that it is possible to be bodily outside the Church and a member of another religion while being spiritually a member of the Church and therefore to receive salvation through implicit baptism of desire which makes you a real, substantial member of the Catholic Church but not formally/bodily.

Only God knows how many non-Christians are in this position, I obviously cannot say.

But you JUST said that all people are Catholic without knowing it.

So, yes, everyone is a Catholic whether they be muslim, atheist, hindu, ect.

It is a a spiritual issue, so yes, that means everybody is spiritually part of the Catholic church.

Thats probably why you think non-believers can be saved.

 

[Vouthon]

But you JUST said that all people are Catholic without knowing it.

So, yes, everyone is a Catholic whether they be muslim, atheist, hindu, ect.

Sister, I honestly never said that all people are Catholic. You have clearly read this into my posts. All I know is that it is possible for non-Christians, who are bodily outside the Church, to be spiritually part of her and therefore to receive salvation. This is the perrenial teaching of the Catholic Church. I don’t know how many non-Christians are in this position. Sure, I hope they all are! But I cannot possibly know, and have never claimed to know, only God does.

And that is it in a nutshell. I am sorry if I have said something to make you think otherwise

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Sister, I honestly never said that all people are Catholic. You have clearly read this into my posts. All I know is that it is possible for non-Christians, who are bodily outside the Church, to be spiritually part of her and therefore to receive salvation. This is the perrenial teaching of the Catholic Church. I don’t know how many non-Christians are in this position. Sure, I hope they all are! But I cannot possibly know, and have never claimed to know, only God does.

And that is it in a nutshell. I am sorry if I have said something to make you think otherwise

Part of being a Catholic is being saved. They cannot be saved if they are not part of the Church. Part of the church is being spiritually saved so unless they are a Christian, they are not saved. So I don’t really get how somebody could be saved and not saved at the same time.

 

[Vouthon]

Part of being a Catholic is being saved. **They cannot be saved if they are not part of the Church. **Part of the church is being spiritually saved so unless they are a Christian, they are not saved. So I don’t really get how somebody could be saved and not saved at the same time.

But they ARE part of the Church SPIRITUALLY even if not FORMALLY/PHYSICALLY

 

[PumpkinSeed]

But they ARE part of the Church SPIRITUALLY even if not FORMALLY/PHYSICALLY

Ok- so you are saying that people OUTSIDE of the church are part of the Church spiritually.

Which once again means that everybody is saved because they are part of the church, and part of the church is BEING saved.

 

[Vouthon]

Ok- so you are saying that people OUTSIDE of the church are part of the Church spiritually.

Which once again means that everybody is saved because they are part of the church, and part of the church is BEING saved.

Where are you getting this “everybody” from? That is a totally different issue - universal salvation - which is quite distinct from the possibility of salvation for non-Christians, and which I certainly am not advocating.

I am saying that people bodily outside of the visible Church can spiritually be within her bosom and therefore receive salvation. Only those non-Christians who adhere to the Will of God as manifested through the dictates of a right conscience will receive this spiritual baptism. I obviously cannot say how many people belong in this category, that is known only to God.

It is very late here in the UK, so please forgive me if I have to wait till tommorrow morning to get back to you.

Hopefully by then another Catholic will have chipped in and I pray have cleared up what I - obviously - am proving unable to explain to you appropriately

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Where are you get this “everybody” from? That is a totally different issue - universal salvation - which is quite distinct from the possibility of salvation for non-Christians, and which I certainly am not advocating.

I am saying that people bodily outside of the visible Church can spiritually be within her bosom and therefore receive salvation. Only those non-Christians who adhere to the Will of God as manifested through the dictates of a right conscience will receive this spiritual baptism. I obviously cannot say how many people belong in this category, that is known only to God.

It is very late here in the UK, so please forgive me if I have to wait till tommorrow morning to get back to you.

Hopefully by then another Catholic will have chipped in and I pray have cleared up what I - obviously - am proving unable to explain to you appropriately

Ok, so then its only a ‘somtimes’ situation, rather than everyone.

That is still saying people outside the church can receive salvation… just only sometimes.