Salvation for Non-Catholics

[Trebor135]

As you know, some ala cafeteria style selectively don’t see that. It is like “once right always right”. Like Calvinists with predestination of individuals, some are with their church.

This is taking the thread somewhat off topic, but it’s important to recall that Christ promised to be with his Church forever; the notion that he was negligent in this area constitutes ecclesial deism.

 

[GraceDK]

I understand the possibility of falling . There are scriptures of assurance AND scriptures of persevering, AND of being mistaken on one’s standing ("depart fro me…) I mentioned this in an earlier thread .I don’t totally agree with OSAS, but I also see the other end, keeping saints fearful, unsure, trusting in their actions, religious activity. If one begins the spiritual journey based totally on His grace and saving power (esp.if you believe in infant regeneration-the infant simply receiving without any work), that is how we are kept to the end. I would say this is the primary focus of our hope. Again I said primary. Are we more pious cause we know of our own depravity ? Maybe. But if we "worry " about it, to where it overshadows HIS work at keeping us, that is sin. What are we trusting in after regeneration/justification ? By His Spirit we are drawn to His word, to fellowship, to good works, to hating sin, to a deeper understanding of His work at Calvary etc… I am sorry you feel some are selective cafeteria style on scripture application. I feel some do the same. Revelations does give both sides .We are to keep the faith to the end . Some will depart ,grow lukewarm. This is at the individual level, but at the church level , and even at the church (denominational ) level. This is clear in scripture, just as clear that He will guide the church. But, as an individual can stray, so can a church. As you know, some ala cafeteria style selectively don’t see that. It is like “once right always right”. Like Calvinists with predestination of individuals, some are with their church.

David I don’t disagree with you much here. I also don’t think that any good Christian I know goes around shuttering. When we sin gravely, we fear, and we should. Unfortunately I have also met my share of Christians who don’t fear when they live in sin… they think they are fine with God no matter their action. That God is some kind of hollywood love. But see Scriptire and you get an idea of a Love which is fierce, just, merciful, pruning, tough love I think Americans call it.

I am not sure we agree on ecclesiology, which would also be strange since you are not a Catholic person. Jesus promised in His Word: “on Kefas I will build my Church … The gates of hades will not prevail over my Church.” Its also written that all truth will be revealed through the Church, and that the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth. I don’t find Evangelical ecclesiology sufficient to explain any of these passages in the Word of God…
The Church that Jesus instituted cannot stray on important matters of faith and morals like some Christian sects have been known to

 

[david_ruiz]

This is taking the thread somewhat off topic, but it’s important to recall that Christ promised to be with his Church forever; the notion that he was negligent in this area constitutes ecclesial deism.

He is with us individually and head of the Body ,the church ,forever, but as PRmerger said ,“until we turn away” . We all have seen individuals turn away, and we have all sen churches turn away, as is suggested strongly in Revelations .His promise is still kept true for this always a remnant, a true church(s) (again as in Rev.). He will even cut time short in the last days so that this remains true. Will He find faith when He returns is what He asks. A church is no longer universal (catholic) when she makes divisions, claims not from the Lord. Even the CC teaches there are those outside her fullness that are part of the body .In that she is still truly catholic.

 

[rinnie]

Well I was shocked to find out that apparently- anybody can receive salvation no matter their beliefs or lack thereof. This means anybody who is a non-christian can apparently make it into heaven without Jesus. I thought he said he was the only way to the father, but maybe he was wrong?

I posted a thread about the afterlife for non-christians and somebody posted that under the CC, apparently anybody can receive salvation, even non-christians. Yes, this includes atheists.

It was news to me.

Why? Do you think there is anything impossible for God? We don’t as Catholics. We believe we must practice and obey the commands of God, simply because the truth was revealed to us, by God by his saving grace.

But we also believe God knows of ways know only to himself how others can be saved.

With this said, how does that mean it is still not by the saving grace of Jesus Christ?

We believe that God works in mysterious ways and can choose to reveal himself to anyone anywhere anyway he chooses. We put no conditions on the Grace and Love that God has for everyone.

We also are taught to rely on his great mercy for those who have not received the true word of God and live their life the best they can in the light of which was given to them. We choose to believe we have a very loving and merciful and fair God. We believe God knows a heart and soul and knows who are his, not matter what. And we believe he judges us on that.

 

[rinnie]

He is with us individually and head of the Body ,the church ,forever, but as PRmerger said ,“until we turn away” . We all have seen individuals turn away, and we have all sen churches turn away, as is suggested strongly in Revelations .His promise is still kept true for this always a remnant, a true church(s) (again as in Rev.). He will even cut time short in the last days so that this remains true. Will He find faith when He returns is what He asks. A church is no longer universal (catholic) when she makes divisions, claims not from the Lord. Even the CC teaches there are those outside her fullness that are part of the body .In that she is still truly catholic.

But teach this in the context it is taught. Indeed they are Catholic but are not perfectly united to Christ and his Church.

Anyone who is not part of the true Church are not perfectly united to Christ because they do not take part in the Living Christ the Eucharist.

How do you feel a person can be perfectly united to Christ if they do not take part in the living bread from heaven only given in the Catholic Church?

 

[rinnie]

David I don’t disagree with you much here. I also don’t think that any good Christian I know goes around shuttering. When we sin gravely, we fear, and we should. Unfortunately I have also met my share of Christians who don’t fear when they live in sin… they think they are fine with God no matter their action. That God is some kind of hollywood love. But see Scriptire and you get an idea of a Love which is fierce, just, merciful, pruning, tough love I think Americans call it.

I am not sure we agree on ecclesiology, which would also be strange since you are not a Catholic person. Jesus promised in His Word: “on Kefas I will build my Church … The gates of hades will not prevail over my Church.” Its also written that all truth will be revealed through the Church, and that the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth. I don’t find Evangelical ecclesiology sufficient to explain any of these passages in the Word of God…
The Church that Jesus instituted cannot stray on important matters of faith and morals like some Christian sects have been known to

I agree. Many claim to teach the truth, and many have some truth, I do not disagree.

But there is a big difference of truth and the Fullness of the truth that can only be in the One truth Church.

The RCC can link itself directly to Peter the Rock, which is the Church started by Christ and led by Peter who holds the keys to the kingdom.

The keys are passed down and held by our great Pope today.

 

[YendisAgev]

Will non-Catholic Christians make it to heaven? If so, how will this happen?

Will Jews, God’s chosen for the first covenant, make it to heaven? If so, why? If not, why not?

If Jesus Christ founded one true Church, what happens to those who are outside of it?

What are pre and post Vatican II views on this?

Please show me references, I hear different things from different people and I want at least some sort of official straight answer, if there even is one.

“Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, pray for us. Amen.” I just prayed that you would accept Jesus as your only hope and intercessor to God.

A] John 3:16 talks about how anyone that believes in Jesus Christ will not die, but have eternal life.

B] The current pope, Benedict XVI believes that Jews will enter heaven youtube.com/watch?v=PtYSQATjcgE, but Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6).

As a former Roman Catholic, I urge you to closely examine your faith. Your salvation depends on it.

 

[PRmerger]

“Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, pray for us. Amen.” I just prayed that you would accept Jesus as your only hope and intercessor to God.

Jesus* is* our only hope. But not our only intercessor. Thankfully, we have the intercession of the angels and saints in heaven, who, as you correctly proclaim below, have not died.

A] John 3:16 talks about how anyone that believes in Jesus Christ will not die, but have eternal life.

Amen!

 

[YendisAgev]

Jesus* is* our only hope. But not our only intercessor. Thankfully, we have the intercession of the angels and saints in heaven, who, as you correctly proclaim below, have not died.

Amen!

Why not go to Jesus, the savior/God himself directly? Plus, what does “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” mean to you?

gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

 

[PRmerger]

The current pope, Benedict XVI believes that Jews will enter heaven youtube.com/watch?v=PtYSQATjcgE

I don’t believe that this is correct. The video said nothing about our pope canonizing any Jewish person.

To be sure, if any Jew is saved–and they may be saved–it is only through the atoning blood of Christ.

but Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me” (John 14:6).

Amen! Just as the only way that *you * may be saved, Yendis, is through His Body, the Catholic Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Why not go to Jesus, the savior/God himself directly?

For the same reason that your church has prayer chains. Why does your church have prayer chains if you only need to go to Jesus ONLY?

And why do you ask people to pray for your mom before she goes to surgery?
Or to pray for good weather when you travel?

Plus, what does “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” mean to you?

It means that Jesus is THE mediator.

But unless you believe that you shouldn’t ask others to pray for you, then you don’t believe that Jesus is the ONLY mediator either.

 

[PRmerger]

Plus, what does “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” mean to you?

You do know, Yendis, that the Bible commands us to intercede for each other, right?

St. Paul himself gave the first Christian communities (and us!) a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel, and also intercedes for them (and us!)

[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Colossians 1:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 1:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[YendisAgev]

I don’t believe that this is correct. The video said nothing about our pope canonizing any Jewish person.

To be sure, if any Jew is saved–and they may be saved–it is only through the atoning blood of Christ.

Amen! Just as the only way that *you * may be saved, Yendis, is through His Body, the Catholic Church.

I think I posted the wrong video… WOOPS!!

This one it the correct one: youtube.com/watch?v=oIvbCoaRr7w

 

[PRmerger]

I think I posted the wrong video… WOOPS!!

This one it the correct one: youtube.com/watch?v=oIvbCoaRr7w

Best to quote the Pope himself saying that Jews are saved without Christ.

Can you point us to that writing, please?

I know there are Muslims who take St. Paul’s writings, out of context of course, and say, “Your own inspired writer Paul says that Jesus himself is a MAN!”

To wit: “the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ”. St.Paul says that. The Muslim take that quote and says that Paul does not believe that Jesus is God.

So you can see what happens when you take things out of context, right?

 

[YendisAgev]

Best to quote the Pope himself saying that Jews are saved without Christ.

Can you point us to that writing, please?

I know there are Muslims who take St. Paul’s writings, out of context of course, and say, “Your own inspired writer Paul says that Jesus himself is a MAN!”

To wit: “the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ”. St.Paul says that. The Muslim take that quote and says that Paul does not believe that Jesus is God.

So you can see what happens when you take things out of context, right?

:banghead: In the video at the 9sec mark.

Section 2 A, 7-- “For to read the Bible as Judaism does necessarily involves an implicit acceptance of all its presuppositions, that is, the full acceptance of what Judaism is, in particular, the authority of its writings and rabbinic traditions,** which exclude faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.”**

Here’s the link from the Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

Another Qoute:
"The definitive fulfillment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. "

NOTICE (not shouting ): There are two “expectations” spoken about.

I’m not taking ANYTHING out of context. I don’t play ball that way.

 

[PRmerger]

:banghead: In the video at the 9sec mark.

Section 2 A, 7-- “For to read the Bible as Judaism does necessarily involves an implicit acceptance of all its presuppositions, that is, the full acceptance of what Judaism is, in particular, the authority of its writings and rabbinic traditions,** which exclude faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.”**

Here’s the link from the Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html

Another Qoute:
"The definitive fulfillment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. "

NOTICE (not shouting ): There are two “expectations” spoken about.

I’m not taking ANYTHING out of context. I don’t play ball that way.

Again, if you could quote something from the Holy Father, not something from a video of someone else reading someone else’s words, that would be great.

At any rate, the Catholic teaching is, and has always been, outside the Church there is no salvation. So if Jews are saved, it is through the Church. If you are saved, it is through the Church.

 

[YendisAgev]

Again, if you could quote something from the Holy Father, not something from a video of someone else reading someone else’s words, that would be great.

At any rate, the Catholic teaching is, and has always been, outside the Church there is no salvation. So if Jews are saved, it is through the Church. If you are saved, it is through the Church.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY A CHURCH. IT IS ALONE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

Notice what I posted: Now go to the link and hit “ctrl+F” / “cmd+f” and search for the words. That link provides all you need from the VATICAN website. Yes, the video included comments, but the guy did in fact read lines from the VATICAN website.

Sorry for the shouting…

"Section 2 A, 7-- “For to read the Bible as Judaism does necessarily involves an implicit acceptance of all its presuppositions, that is, the full acceptance of what Judaism is, in particular, the authority of its writings and rabbinic traditions, which exclude faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.”

Here’s the link from the Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/co…braico_en.html

Another Qoute:
"The definitive fulfillment will be at the end with the resurrection of the dead, a new heaven and a new earth. Jewish messianic expectation is not in vain. It can become for us Christians a powerful stimulant to keep alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. Like them, we too live in expectation. "

:egyptian:

 

[PRmerger]

YOU ARE NOT SAVED BY A CHURCH. IT IS ALONE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

But the ONLY way you know ANYTHING at all about what Jesus said, or did…

is because

of the

Catholic Church.

You would not know anything at all about HIM

were it not for the Church, Yendis.

 

[PRmerger]

I think I posted the wrong video… WOOPS!!

Incidentally, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the first video you posted of the Holy Father visiting the synagogue and praying with the Jews.

He’s doing exactly what Jesus did, no?

I don’t see your elders in your church doing what Jesus did here.

Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues–Matt 4:23

He entered again into a synagogue;–Mark 3:1

I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together–John 18:20

 

[YendisAgev]

But the ONLY way you know ANYTHING at all about what Jesus said, or did…

is because

of the

Catholic Church.

You would not know anything at all about HIM

were it not for the Church, Yendis.

God has NOT revealed himself because MAN said anything. He has revealed himself through the word of God (Bible) through the writing utensil of man’s hand by define inspiration.

If you say the only way to know Jesus and go to heaven is by the Roman Catholic Church, you are forgetting

Salvation is by Jesus, not man.

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. -Romans 10:9-10