Salvation for The Many? Or Salvation for The Few?

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OnAJourney

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I’m currently going through RCIA as a Catechumen and recently I was going through some videos from Bishop Barron on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video concerning hell and salvation. The gist of the video was over whether everyone is saved or if only some are saved and the rest are to face damnation.

In my opinion I don’t believe everyone can or will be saved due to the fallen nature of man. However, I’m not really sold on the idea that many or even most will not be saved. It’s a debate that I’ve been having within my mind. I’m not entirely sure where I’d even stand within this moral question. If we were to take the position that many or most will not be saved, I would say I’d be among those who wouldn’t be saved rather than those who would be.

It’s a complex subject that I’m not entirely sure where I stand. Thoughts and comments welcome
 
Catholics believe that except for those who are Saints as well as, I suppose, the Patriarchs of the OT, we really don’t know who will be saved and who will not. Thus we do not know how “full” or how “empty” hell might be. The reason is that even the worst sinner may have had a sincere deathbed confession from mortal sin and thus perhaps gone to purgatory instead of hell. Only G-d knows the hearts of people including in their last hours or minutes of earthly life and who is or is not in grace.
 
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Relatively simple from what I’ve read:

God hardly ever lets us know who is saved and who isn’t. There are very few cases of a definite, confirmed, condemnation to hell. (Even looking through private revelations that are generally considered credible such instances are rare…)

It’s a sort/kind of a mystery. And that makes sense…If you think confession can’t be revealed it would be perhaps indiscreet if we knew the eternal fate of someone. I suppose, that’s between them and God.

We also don’t know much of how heaven will be…What will it be like? I can only suppose it will be perfect and much better than anything we can even begin to imagine.

(One biblical episode that comes to mind is that of Lazarus. What would be the “use” of us knowing who was condemned or saved? If we have scripture, and were sent the prophets, and can receive grace, that should be sufficient…)

P.S. We could make an argument that of the countless billions of souls -over history- some are bound to be saved and others not. So, the rare case of the “Fátima apparitions” where a vision of “purgatory” was given would make sense…And again, “purgatory” isn’t necessarily bad, if you make it there you’re bound to enter heaven eventually.
 
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I wish you the best for you RCIA classes @OnAJourney.

God bless.
 
We don’t have a clue how many will be saved and how many won’t be saved.

Concentrate on saving yourself and praying for everybody else, and stop concerning yourself with numbers.
 
It’s not necessarily the numbers that concern me. It’s as St Leonard points out in his sermon “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” about the Christians who are damned.
 
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OnAJourney said:
It’s not necessarily the numbers that concern me. It’s as St Leonard points out in his sermon “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” about the Christians who are damned.
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You logically contradicted yourself there.

Your first post also indicates that you are very concerned about the numbers; specifically, the relative number of how many are saved vs. how many are damned and what position you should take on it.

My point is that you don’t have to take a position on it at all. Trust in God’s mercy, follow his commandments, pray for sinners, leave the rest up to God.

We don’t sit around dividing ourselves into camps, “Well I believe most won’t be saved” vs. “Well I believe most will be saved.” This is way above our pay grade.
 
Sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice "In it he reviews the various states of life of Christians and concludes with the little number of those who are saved, in relation to the totality of men. " (Bold emphasis is mine).

He was referring to the number of Christians compared to the number of non-Christians. Even today, I think there are more non-Christians than Christians in the total population of the earth. I suppose back then, the same as is now, there are many lapsed Catholics. In his sermon it was to these lapsed Catholics he was referring to.

Christ died for all, but not all will accept salvation. As a Catholic remain faithful to God, go to confession if you commit a mortal sin (after entering the Church), stay close to God and His Church.

No one knows (apart from canonized Saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary) who is definitely in heaven (thus “saved”), nor do we know who is in purgatory (thus “saved” and on their way to being Saints in heaven).

What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means

So God has His ways for those who through no fault of their own do not know Him, regarding salvation as is explained in the document linked above.

As you are going through RCIA, concentrate on your own relationship with God, thank God for leading you to His Church, pray for others and let God be God as to ‘how may are saved’.
 
Why would God create so many people knowing they will suffer for eternity?
 
Only God knows, and this is one of those things that may only be revealed when we meet God up close and personal, if he thinks we need to know.
 
OnAJourney said:
In my opinion I don’t believe everyone can or will be saved due to the fallen nature of man.
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I’d like to comment on this sentence. Eve did not have a fallen nature and yet she fell. So did Adam and Lucifer and a bunch of angels. So even without the fallen nature, persons can fall. So I’m not sure the fallen nature is decisive.

I note you lean towards classifying yourself among the those who will not be saved if most people aren’t saved. That is a point worth pursuing. How do you want to view it, as a matter of averages, with you being a spectator? Or perhaps would you rather see it as a call to act, to turn to God for help? But once you put God in the picture, it is no longer about averages. With God, all things are possible (cf Mt 19:26 or around there). 😀
 
Got catechism? An excellent place to begin.

Ok, let’s take the current world population of 7 billion or so. Further, let’s assume for the sake of argument that out of 7 billion, only 100 million are saved.

I think that 100 million qualifies as “many.”

Especially when our Lord addressed groups of 4,000-5,000.
 
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adgloriam said:
We could make an argument that of the countless billions of souls -over history- some are bound to be saved and others not. So, the rare case of the “Fátima apparitions” where a vision of “purgatory” was given would make sense…
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I always thought that the Fatima children were shown a vision of hell, not purgatory, and Jacinta lamented that almost everyone was going to hell. I have my doubts that a terrified, traumatized young child would accurately absorb and describe the totality of what she saw. But then again she could have.

I recall reading once, and I don’t recall where, that of those who are in the Church, believe and practice the faith, and regularly receive the sacraments, it is more probable that they will be saved, than that they will not. For all others… I guess that means all bets are off.
 
God created each individual because He love us and wants us to spend eternity with Him. We were also created to know, love & serve Him and to give Glory to Him.

Because He loves us so much He gave us free will so we can choose whether to love Him or reject Him.

He could have made us robots without free will, but would that really be love?

Would you want someone to love you freely, because they want to, or because they don’t have any choice in the matter? If the second, then that’s not really love is it?

God is all knowing - we are not.

“God who created you without you, will not save you without you”
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I always thought that the Fatima children were shown a vision of hell, not purgatory,
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I’ve read dozen of books on Fátima years ago (a sizeable body of work btw) and you’re catching me on the wrong foot here…

In any case:
-Vistes o inferno, para onde vão as almas dos pobres pecadores; (…)
-You’ve seen hell, to where the souls of poor sinners go; (…)

in Memories of Sister Lúcia, 1ªed 1976, p 95.
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But, on the very same page
A vista do inferno tinha-a horrorizado a tal ponto, que todas as penitências e mortificações lhe pareciam nada, para conseguir tirar de lá algumas almas.

The vision of hell had terrorized her to such a point, that all penitences and mortifications seemed like nothing to her, in order to be able to take some souls out of there.

ibidem
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This was written in 1941 when blessed sister Lúcia would have known the difference between hell and purgatory. You’ll notice she mentions explicitly the notion of getting “souls out of hell” through indulgences and mortification, which -afaik- is theologically only possible if the souls are in purgatory.

Although she was writing retrospectively and may have opted to phrase things as she understood them in her childhood. I’m unable, at this moment, for lack of time, to search further in the literature for posterior comments and authoritative interpretations.

In any case, you can appreciate that reading on Fátima is more complex than may seem at first sight…Any error is, off course, my own.
 
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meltzerboy2 said:
Only G-d knows the hearts of people
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Not wanting to hijack the thread @meltzerboy2 I’ve noticed jew CAF’ers usually writing “G-d”. I assume this follows the 2nd commandment. May I ask how often you say God over a month or a year…? Do you say God during a verbal conversation with gentiles? Do you ever write God? Do you say God out loud and when you are thinking to yourself? Or does respecting the 2nd commandment imply not uttering the full word God not even to yourself - except perhaps in extreme circumstances?
 
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The utterance of G-d (or Hashem) is fine. The writing of G-d is abbreviated just in case the word should intentionally or accidentally be deleted; that is the primary concern.
 
meltzerboy2 said:
The utterance of G-d (or Hashem) is fine. The writing of G-d is abbreviated just in case the word should intentionally or accidentally be deleted; that is the primary concern.
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If I may, I would like to ask what deletion (intentional or accidental) of the word would signify to you?
 
That does not really answer the question. God created perhaps, most people, knowing what their freedom will entail. i think God is more understanding than that and we are not nearly as free as we believe. Between genetics and our environment most of us are more victims than perpetrators.
 
I think my reply did answer the question.

Genetics and environment does not negate our free will. I acknowledge that there are factors that influence our decisions/choices. But those factors do not change the fact that these decisions/choices are acts made in the will.

You are free to accept or not accept what I say, and whatever decision you make is an act of your free will.
 
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