Salvation - Is Sanctification Optional?

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One of the developments of Eastern thought and belief became a very practical solution…“Does it work?” Is one’s experience with God personal…“revealed” and God is Experienced more than understood…as God is Wholly Other…Quakerism teaches that God is Present among any who seek Him…by whatever Name they ascribe to this Reality and Source of Being…’'Holy Enlightenment"…“That of God Speaking Inwardly”…Light Within"…“Source and Ground of Being”…one does not “feel” holy…one becomes holy by separating ourselves for the Light’s use…to be the Embodiment of Deity in our world…to share “Incarnation” with Christ in our world…I strive for holiness, without which no one may see the Lord…but I find it difficult to state “I am holy.” I would venture to guess friend Sufjon has equal difficulty.🤷
 
From StewStew03: Please explain what you mean by "early on, these systems get the idea that they in themselves are you.
Hi again Stew: You may or may not subscribe to modern psychology, but I am simply speaking in regard to the ego. Carl Jung noted that a life lived entirely from the ego is dull not only for the person himself but for all concerned. Only a life lived in a certain spirit is worth living.
Also, how do you know that you are not being deceived into thinking you are holy? In other words, perhaps this holy enlightenment you believe you have experienced is in fact an illusion you have developed over time? It seems this is just as likely to be true as anything else you’ve put forward.
If you want to know whether you are living in accordance with a compass that is fixed on God correctly, one should be able to see in themselves a life that has been lived to the best of one’s ability for the sake of love. If you seek to love God and others without condition, then you have set your course in accordance with the Lord’s counsel, and therefore you will not miss the mark. I trust the Lord completely and have no fear in regard to the outcome, because in fact I have nothing to fear. If we react to those who tell us we have something to fear, then we are falling prey to coercion, and we find ourselves acting out of the desire for heaven and the fear of hell. This is not love. It is want in it’s basest form, and the Lord says that you shall not want. If you cannot love the Lord without Him having a stick with which to punish you and treats with which to reward you, then you do not love the Lord, and He knows it. Such a person will have a long time yet to suffer. This is not because of God’s punishment, but simple cause and effect.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
One of the developments of Eastern thought and belief became a very practical solution…“Does it work?” Is one’s experience with God personal…“revealed” and God is Experienced more than understood…as God is Wholly Other…Quakerism teaches that God is Present among any who seek Him…by whatever Name they ascribe to this Reality and Source of Being…’'Holy Enlightenment"…“That of God Speaking Inwardly”…Light Within"…“Source and Ground of Being”…one does not “feel” holy…one becomes holy by separating ourselves for the Light’s use…to be the Embodiment of Deity in our world…to share “Incarnation” with Christ in our world…I strive for holiness, without which no one may see the Lord…but I find it difficult to state “I am holy.” I would venture to guess friend Sufjon has equal difficulty.🤷
Hi Publisher: As usual, I very much appreciate your kindness and acceptance of others, and I admire the wisdom that seems apparent in your Quaker religion. I know it sounds rather appalling from a Christian perspective, but I do think I’m holy, sacred, precious and infinitely cared for. I think you are too. The only way we really get to see much of God in this world is in each other.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
We have the power to free ourselves from ourselves. We are slaves to sin when we regard ourselves in relation to ourselves rather than in relation to the whole.
Sufjon, I think you are in the wrong thread. You are trying to respond from a Hindu perspective which is totally opposed to Christianity.

What we are discussing here are Christian tenets.

This not about comparison between Hindu and Christian ideas but between views of salvation from different Christian denominations.
 
Sufjon, I think you are in the wrong thread. You are trying to respond from a Hindu perspective which is totally opposed to Christianity.

What we are discussing here are Christian tenets.

This not about comparison between Hindu and Christian ideas but between views of salvation from different Christian denominations.
Hi Benedictus2: If I have intruded into an area of discussion where I am not welcome or my contributions aren’t relevant, then this is my mistake. I have to the best of my ability kept my comments in a context that is relevant to my understanding of the teachings of Jesus, and therefore it was my hope to add a dimension to the discussion.

It is my honest belief that God is not Hindu nor Catholic nor Protestant nor Jewish, nor do I believe that we were made as such. Rather, I think we are made in His image. My sense is that such things as denominations are constructs of the human psyche and not God’s truth, which transcends the barriers built by people. What is true for one who calls himself this thing, is true for him who calls himself that thing or the other thing, because at the core we emanate from and belong to the One thing that created all things. He doesn’t care whether or not I am an observant Hindu or you are an observant Catholic. I think He would be most satisfied if we were to see Him in each other and love each other as such, and therein lies the truth that is relevant for all, manifest in His most profound commandment.

That said, if is there something in particular that I have said that you find troubling or irrelevant I would be happy to discuss it.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Hi again Stew: You may or may not subscribe to modern psychology, but I am simply speaking in regard to the ego. Carl Jung noted that a life lived entirely from the ego is dull not only for the person himself but for all concerned. Only a life lived in a certain spirit is worth living.

If you want to know whether you are living in accordance with a compass that is fixed on God correctly, one should be able to see in themselves a life that has been lived to the best of one’s ability for the sake of love. If you seek to love God and others without condition, then you have set your course in accordance with the Lord’s counsel, and therefore you will not miss the mark. I trust the Lord completely and have no fear in regard to the outcome, because in fact I have nothing to fear. If we react to those who tell us we have something to fear, then we are falling prey to coercion, and we find ourselves acting out of the desire for heaven and the fear of hell. This is not love. It is want in it’s basest form, and the Lord says that you shall not want. If you cannot love the Lord without Him having a stick with which to punish you and treats with which to reward you, then you do not love the Lord, and He knows it. Such a person will have a long time yet to suffer. This is not because of God’s punishment, but simple cause and effect.

Your friend,
Sufjon
Love of God and neighbor* is* the goal-it’s considered to constitute the complete justice of man. But the Catholic Church teaches that the journey can begin for less noble reasons, fear being one. But ultimately, as one grows in the knowledge of God, trust and love will blossom, and fear fades away.
 
When I read Beckwith’s book the disjoint in Protestant theology became clear.

The interesting thing is that this awful philospy that grounded protestant theology is the same parent of relativism and deconstructionism.

It is possible to reason therefore, that once Protestant theology took hold of western society, the rise of relativism and decontructionism was a natural conclusion.
There is no doubt that the root of relativism is rooted in Luther’s theology. We all have the right to define our own truth based on how we read the Bible. That is the essence of Protestantism and it all comes from Luther. Reality is how I see it. Truth is what I make it.
 
Hi again Stew: You may or may not subscribe to modern psychology, but I am simply speaking in regard to the ego. Carl Jung noted that a life lived entirely from the ego is dull not only for the person himself but for all concerned. Only a life lived in a certain spirit is worth living
.
My undergraduate degree is in psychology, so yes, I am familiar with the concept of ego.
If you want to know whether you are living in accordance with a compass that is fixed on God correctly, one should be able to see in themselves a life that has been lived to the best of one’s ability for the sake of love.
Sufjon, the problem I have with your theology is that you could simply live a life devoted to yourself since you are holy and sacred - like God. You don’t need Jesus Christ to redeem you because you don’t see your nature as any different than the nature of Christ. Similarly, people can worship you and still be worshiping God because you are sacred just as Christ was sacred. *** That’s a very dangerous theology in my opinion.*** And if you are here to learn about Christianity I would just say this - Christ was without sin because he was the Son of God, not because he became enlightened to his inner holiness. It is illusory to believe one can become like Christ in the absence of a belief that one *needs *Christ as a savior - as a redeemer. Sanctification is not the *means *but the end. Christ teaches us not to “wake up and become enlightened” but to act according to His Will.
 
Sufjon, the problem I have with your theology is that you could simply live a life devoted to yourself since you are holy and sacred - like God.
Hi again Stew: A life devoted to the service of others is the way in which one loses the burdens of the self. The realization of God in others and in the service of God through serving them is the surest way to find Him within oneself.
You don’t need Jesus Christ to redeem you because you don’t see your nature as any different than the nature of Christ.
What is missing is the realization of the Christ within us.
Similarly, people can worship you and still be worshiping God because you are sacred just as Christ was sacred.
The best way to worship God is to love and serve that which is dearest to Him - His creations. The best worship is adoration.

I
t is illusory to believe one can become like Christ in the absence of a belief that one *needs *Christ as a savior - as a redeemer.
My sense is that the redemption that Jesus offered was realization of what we are, and the original sin is the ignorance of it. As to what we are, both Jesus and the psalms give clues.

Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.

Similarly, when Jesus was accused of saying that He was God, he replied as follows:

John 10:34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

In other words, “sure I am - so are you.” He was quoting scripture of course, but if He meant something else I’m thinking He would have said something else.
Sanctification is not the *means *but the end. Christ teaches us not to “wake up and become enlightened” but to act according to His Will.
To act according to His will is to love Him and to love others. The realization of Him in yourself and in those around you is enlightenment.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
The best worship is adoration.
Worship of God alone - not others.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.
Similarly, when Jesus was accused of saying that He was God, he replied as follows:
John 10:34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
In other words, “sure I am - so are you.” He was quoting scripture of course, but if He meant something else I’m thinking He would have said something else.
Unfortunately, there is a gap in your understanding of Christianity. The rest of Psalm 82 is as follows:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”


8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

If you are truly here to learn about Christianity, Sufjon, and I have to admit I am becoming skeptical of your motives here, then allow me to instruct you that Jesus was absolutely not saying “sure I’m a god, and so are you.” No, instead Jesus was arguing that if it was okay to call the judges in Psalm 82 ‘gods’ because they were the agents of God’s word, then how much more permissible is it to use the word ‘god’ in relation to Him who is the Word of God? See exegetical commentary here.
 
Hi Benedictus2: If I have intruded into an area of discussion where I am not welcome or my contributions aren’t relevant, then this is my mistake. I have to the best of my ability kept my comments in a context that is relevant to my understanding of the teachings of Jesus, and therefore it was my hope to add a dimension to the discussion.

It is my honest belief that God is not Hindu nor Catholic nor Protestant nor Jewish, nor do I believe that we were made as such. Rather, I think we are made in His image. My sense is that such things as denominations are constructs of the human psyche and not God’s truth, which transcends the barriers built by people. What is true for one who calls himself this thing, is true for him who calls himself that thing or the other thing, because at the core we emanate from and belong to the One thing that created all things. He doesn’t care whether or not I am an observant Hindu or you are an observant Catholic. I think He would be most satisfied if we were to see Him in each other and love each other as such, and therein lies the truth that is relevant for all, manifest in His most profound commandment.

That said, if is there something in particular that I have said that you find troubling or irrelevant I would be happy to discuss it.

Your friend,
Sufjon
The discussion is about different Christian perspectives on salvation. If you want to talk about Hindu vs Christian perspective of salvation, then start a thread on that one.

It is totally senseless to even bring in the Hindu perspective when the discussion does not call for it.

If you are able to present either the protestant or Catholic view, then do so. Otherwise, you are just derailing the thread.
 
I
f you are truly here to learn about Christianity, Sufjon, and I have to admit I am becoming skeptical of your motives here, then allow me to instruct you that Jesus was absolutely not saying “sure I’m a god, and so are you.”
Hi Stew: You could certainly call my understanding of Christianity into question, although if my speaking about love for God and those around you causes you to question my motives, then I’m not sure what your expectations are. There should be nothing in any of that to cause you any consternation.
No, instead Jesus was arguing that if it was okay to call the judges in Psalm 82 ‘gods’ because they were the agents of God’s word, then how much more permissible is it to use the word ‘god’ in relation to Him who is the Word of God?
Jesus could have simply answered the question, but by using this passage, He draws a parallel between the nature of His own existence and the existence of humanity, and I believe that Jesus was God.

I also see Him drawing those same parallels when He said that people will not know Him, because when He was hungry they didn’t feed Him and when He was thirsty they gave Him nothing to drink. Again, He draws a parallel between Himself (God) and the rest of humanity, in whom we can perceive His very being. When we feed others, we feed God. Likewise, when we love and care for others, we love and care for God. I don’t see how He could have been more direct, but this is what I believe and I am not interested in changing what you believe. The initial point was to exchange views on he idea of sanctity. The differences I perceive is that I see human life as sacred and holy in it’s very nature, and my understanding is that your view is that we are less than that. If this is the case, then I have been confused by the use of terms like the sanctity of human life when Christians speak out against things like capital punishment. If it’s sacred, then let it be so.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
The discussion is about different Christian perspectives on salvation. If you want to talk about Hindu vs Christian perspective of salvation, then start a thread on that one.
It is totally senseless to even bring in the Hindu perspective when the discussion does not call for it.

If you are able to present either the protestant or Catholic view, then do so. Otherwise, you are just derailing the thread.

Hi Benedctus2: You are free to ignore me.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Hi Publisher: As usual, I very much appreciate your kindness and acceptance of others, and I admire the wisdom that seems apparent in your Quaker religion. I know it sounds rather appalling from a Christian perspective, but I do think I’m holy, sacred, precious and infinitely cared for. I think you are too. The only way we really get to see much of God in this world is in each other.

Your friend
Sufjon
Friend, please know…I was not seeking to answer for you…we are called to holiness…I think I’m ‘holy, sacred, precious and infinitely cared for".as well…not by my own merits, but by the work of God within me…’“holy” means “set apart for a specific purpose”…we are “set apart” to live lives that reflect the things we profess…if we do not live what we profess…we do not possess what is professed.🙂
 
Jesus could have simply answered the question, but by using this passage, He draws a parallel between the nature of His own existence and the existence of humanity…
Yes, but he was not saying that we are all ‘gods.’
When we feed others, we feed God. Likewise, when we love and care for others, we love and care for God.
Respectfully, Sufjon, you continue to take passages out of context. Please read Matthew 25 in context - Jesus was not saying that we are all ‘gods.’
The differences I perceive is that I see human life as sacred and holy in it’s very nature, and my understanding is that your view is that we are less than that.
Then you’ve misunderstood me. Yes, human life is sacred; but that does not mean that we are all ‘gods.’ Your theology is closer to the non-Christian sect known as Mormonism, which is markedly different from Catholicism.
 
Hi Benedctus2: You are free to ignore me.

Your friend,
Sufjon
Sufjon,

Imagine two Hindus having a discussion about some precept of Hindu theology or philosophy. A person comes along who is not Hindu, of another religion, who does not believe the core principles of Hinduism, but instead rejects them. The person believes the caste system, multiple dieties and subdieties are nonsense, and thinking there is something sacred about cows is absurd. Hamburgers and steaks are very tasty and good to eat. Brahmins are no better or closer on their journey to God than Untouchables. It is probably the opposite.

This person interjects his views and tells the Hindus having their discussion on whatever topic of Hindu thought they are discussing the way to understand the concept from his perspective that says the core precepts of Hinduism are false.

There is ample opportunity including places on this forum to have discussions between people of different religions. They are welcome to share their views. This particular discussion between Christians is probably not one of those places. That is not a personal attack, or a rejection of you personally. It means that it would be better to have the discussion and interchange you wish to have with Christians in a different location, or setting.
 
Yes, but he was not saying that we are all 'gods.
Hi again Stew: I have taken the context into account to the best of my ability. Let me see if I am able to be a bit more concise:

Jesus said: “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

To me, the context is clear in that Jesus is saying that we are one with the source of our being and one with each other. He clearly said that what you do to others you have also done to Him. This can be rich with intrinsic meaning or you can discount it as symbolic. He later demonstrates this at the Eucharist. In the case of the Eucharist, you can either perceive that He was talking about simply passing the Lord through your digestive system, or you could perceive that He meant it to be a demonstration or realization of something far more. My belied is that it meant the realization of something more.

In regard to the psalm we had talked about , I will post what you provided again:

The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

It stands to reason that the psalmist could well be saying that in spite of the nature of our beings, we walk in darkness and understand nothing. This is because we are ignorant of the sacred nature of our being, and therefore we walk in the darkness of ignorance and so long as we do that, we die as mortals. In effect, through this ignorance, you we pretty much the walking dead.
Respectfully, Sufjon, you continue to take passages out of context. Please read Matthew 25 in context - Jesus was not saying that we are all 'gods.
When I compare that to many other things He said, I cannot help but come to that conclusion, but honestly, you needn’t be troubled by what I think. We have shared one another’s thoughts and convictions on these matters and other than serving as good contrasting information, there is little likelihood that we will come to an agreement on it.
hen you’ve misunderstood me. Yes, human life is sacred; but that does not mean that we are all ‘gods.’ Your theology is closer to the non-Christian sect known as Mormonism, which is markedly different from Catholicism.
I think my views are more consistent with what you would call mystics, and these can be found in just about all religions and denominations. Moreover, I was unaware that Mormons didn’t consider themselves Christians, so I have learned something new.

Anyway, I think the outcome is that I have learned that there is a strong contingent among Christians, who feel that by our very nature we are vile, corrupt and in need of becoming sanctified. You in turn, have been exposed to the idea that there are others who feel that by our very nature we are sacred and holy. I do know of Christians who share what I believe in that regard. Some of these are priests and nuns whom I have known, and others who I have read of, but perhaps these people are only heretics. That is not for me to say.

Thank you for taking the time to share some dialog with me on these points.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Sufjon,

Imagine two Hindus having a discussion about some precept of Hindu theology or philosophy. A person comes along who is not Hindu, of another religion, who does not believe the core principles of Hinduism, but instead rejects them. The person believes the caste system, multiple dieties and subdieties are nonsense, and thinking there is something sacred about cows is absurd. Hamburgers and steaks are very tasty and good to eat. Brahmins are no better or closer on their journey to God than Untouchables. It is probably the opposite.

This person interjects his views and tells the Hindus having their discussion on whatever topic of Hindu thought they are discussing the way to understand the concept from his perspective that says the core precepts of Hinduism are false.

There is ample opportunity including places on this forum to have discussions between people of different religions. They are welcome to share their views. This particular discussion between Christians is probably not one of those places. That is not a personal attack, or a rejection of you personally. It means that it would be better to have the discussion and interchange you wish to have with Christians in a different location, or setting.
Hi Grandfather: It is my sincere hope that I receive no more replies from Stew on this thread, because even though he is the OP and has been deeply engaged in a discussion with me, it seems for some reason to be of particular import to yourself and Benedictus to shut me up. While I perceive that there is ample room on this thread for yourself and Benedictus to carry on any discussion you like, it seems oddly critical to the two of you to remove me from the thread. I have not taken space that might otherwise be used by the two of you, or in any way impeded your ability to carry on any discussion you like. Therefore, your keen interest in what I am saying attended by a desire to silence me looks like either desperation or bullying (which sometimes go hand in hand). Let me assure you that I am not interested in challenging what you believe simply by sharing what I believe.

Further to the discussion, while you have maintained that this is a thread for Christians, the views I have expressed are not alien or unknown to Christianity. They may not be standard canonical understandings, but they have been expressed through the ages and into current times by mystics from your faith, as well as some sects that were silenced in one way or another by others who felt they knew better. Whether they actually knew better or not is not really my concern.

I might also mention that it is quite possible that Jesus came among us for the benefit of all beings, not just those who define themselves as Christians. There are those of us for whom Jesus fits into a broader context of human interaction and experience with God. Since there is but one God and all beings emanate from Him, I don’t sense that an appearance of God in human form can be kept in the context of one culture.

Anyway, there is plenty of room left on this thread for yourself and Benedictus. That said, did you have something to share beyond the idea that I should leave?

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
Hi Benedctus2: You are free to ignore me.

Your friend,
Sufjon
And I am also free to let you know that you are derailing the thread.

Look, it is easy enough to start a new thread that addresses your points.
 
:
And I am also free to let you know that you are derailing the thread.

Look, it is easy enough to start a new thread that addresses your points.
The thread is all yours now Bendictus. Go for it. 🙂

So, what would you like to say?

Your friend
Sufjon
 
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