Salvation - Is Sanctification Optional?

[benedictus2]

:

The thread is all yours now Bendictus. Go for it.

So, what would you like to say?

Your friend
Sufjon

Hey, I am not telling you to scoot. I am saying that if you are going to post in the thread, then let it be germaine to the subject. That is all.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I understand the point of the OP, though I must say I have read Sufjons posts and I have to say I don’t see much fault in them if any. In fact the majority is Catholic School teaching. Though I didn’t place each word under scrutiny, perhaps I missed a point?

However, let us proceed in Love and Charity.

Peace

 

[benedictus2]

I understand the point of the OP, though I must say I have read Sufjons posts and I have to say I don’t see much fault in them if any.** In fact the majority is Catholic School teaching.** Though I didn’t place each word under scrutiny, perhaps I missed a point?

However, let us proceed in Love and Charity.

Peace

Hardly. The devil is in the detail

This: “We have the power to free ourselves from ourselves. We are slaves to sin when we regard ourselves in relation to ourselves rather than in relation to the whole. In other words, seeing yourself as a separate self, and identification with that separate self is the cause of all suffering and sin.”

And this: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

He is saying something very profound and it’s not just about loving God and loving those around you. It is about seeing that they are one in the same."

And I am sure there are many more.

Sufjon is a Hindu and therefore his take on salvation is Hindu.

If you can’t see the problem with the above quotes vis a vis Catholic theology let me know and I will explain.

This is precisely the kind of theology that underpins new age thought and may be found in the explanation for centering prayer.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hardly. The devil is in the detail

This: “We have the power to free ourselves from ourselves. We are slaves to sin when we regard ourselves in relation to ourselves rather than in relation to the whole. In other words, seeing yourself as a separate self, and identification with that separate self is the cause of all suffering and sin.”

And this: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

He is saying something very profound and it’s not just about loving God and loving those around you. It is about seeing that they are one in the same."

And I am sure there are many more.

Sufjon is a Hindu and therefore his take on salvation is Hindu.

If you can’t see the problem with the above quotes vis a vis Catholic theology let me know and I will explain.

This is precisely the kind of theology that underpins new age thought and may be found in the explanation for centering prayer.

Gottcha, we do have the power to free ourselves from ourselves, which of course is the inner self of the Soul where God resides. So the lesson does become total detachment from the physical state in relation to faith in God, totally. You’ve read St Theresa as I see you’ve quoted the Saint. Thus the two lessons from the Saint are Love of God and Love our Neighbor as we Love ourself. All Catholic rules and constitution resides in those two teachings. To Love is the inward journey first, so then, their, only could true Love could be found in faith, its this inward Love which results in correct outward Love.

The connection of Hindu to Christianity or where I believe Hindu teaching is lacking isn’t so much my thinking. The aspect of the Hindu teaching which is correct is in essense its correct understanding of the Soul being the priority thus the self detachment, since the physical self is of no value in the Spiritual realm.

In the mystical aspect of the far east I find there’s a unique understanding here, which to a very large degree seems to be lacking in the West. In other wards the deeper one travels inward the more comes to realize the vanity and imperfect outer self. The more we understand only God suffices, and all is passing on the exterior. Then too the more one seeks this path, the closer one comes to the Lord, the less one desires to offend the Lord, and the more one see’s God in everyone correctly through Love, for the simple understanding in lesson becomes clear that the Soul is not attached to the physical self.

The Interior Castle or the Kingdom of God is the Soul. Thus as the Saint clearly describes to enter the castle is the path of prayer contemplative/meditative. The door to the inner self resides in this inner prayer, and there the first room is humility. Of course complete faith in God is required as is the interssion of the Saints. Its the walk in faith to the Lord in complete abandonment of the outer physical self and world.

Of course my sister the difference is there, I don’t argue this point. However it apparent to me that teaching above “first” arose through Catholic Mystic Teaching. Where the seperation comes perhaps in charity our Hindu brother could describe to us. Perhaps I’m way off base, but I do see Catholic Mystic teaching in his words.

In other words perhaps it would be better to begin at this inner point and proceed from their instead of just dismissing Hindu/Buddist far east mystical teachings. We must admit there are many Catholics who found must interest in the teachings of the far east because of their direct connection to Catholic Mystical teaching.

IMHO there’s a process here thats seriously lost in the West. And of course my own belief in the CC, people of the Eucharist takes me in yet another direction deeper.

To understand we are made perfect in the image of God, is to know immediately the outer self isn’t whats perfect. Its the Soul thats made perfect in the image of God. The rest is vanity.

Peace and Love, GT

 

[grandfather]

Gottcha, we do have the power to free ourselves from ourselves, which of course is the inner self of the Soul where God resides. Peace and Love, GT

Why do you need Jesus to save you? You can do the job just fine. He is no different from you, but maybe a little wiser, or further ahead of you.

You might want to look at the Pelagian heresy where this was settled.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Why do you need Jesus to save you? You can do the job just fine. He is no different from you, but maybe a little wiser, or further ahead of you.

You might want to look at the Pelagian heresy where this was settled.

Okay, and where did I say anything such as you imply?

Peace

 

[benedictus2]

Gottcha, we do have the power to free ourselves from ourselves, which of course is the inner self of the Soul where God resides.

We have the power to free ourselves from ourselves ??? !!

I think you need to read the teaching of the Church and read the Bible.

Statements like that coming from Catholics is the reason that Protestants accuse us of a theology of works.

We are NOT, repeat NOT, able to free ourselves. St Paul says that he does the things that he does not want to do and he does not do the things he wants to do. Then he goes on to say : Who will save me from the body of death?

We are unable to free ourselves. Only Christ can do that.

 

[benedictus2]

The connection of Hindu to Christianity or where I believe Hindu teaching is lacking isn’t so much my thinking. The aspect of the Hindu teaching which is correct is in essense its correct understanding of the Soul being the priority thus the self detachment, since the physical self is of no value in the Spiritual realm.

The physical self is of no value? What the heck did Christ become human for?

 

[benedictus2]

To understand we are made perfect in the image of God, is to know immediately the outer self isn’t whats perfect. Its the Soul thats made perfect in the image of God. The rest is vanity.

Peace and Love, GT

At the resurrection, we will be resurrected bodies. Christ after the resurrection had a body and still have that body in heaven.

I think your theology smack of gnosticisim.

Many attempt to syncretize Hindu and Christian belief and many do that appealing to the Catholic Mystics. To do so is to completely misunderstand St Teresa.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I suggest you re-read my post above and think about it.

Yes you are through your FREE WILL to choose Jesus Christ. Thats “YOU” playing an active role in “your” salvation.

Right its His will ALL THE TIME. I assumed that was a foregone conclusion in Catholism for Dummies 101. We are not petitioning Him with prayer, trying to engage Him in “our plan” we laid out for ourself, none of the above. Thy Will be Done. However, we play an active role in our salvation in the inner prayer its of MOST importance:shrug:

Yes and through the method I described. Please don’t chop up my statments and interpret them for me for its just your inadaquate pretext then. If you would like to have a charitable open dialogue then we will continue. If you cannot be anything but cynical I will leave you with complete understanding of Gods Kingdom and wish you well. I stand by what I wrote and if you can’t understand it, Then perhaps it is you who doesn’t actually understand as much you think you do as we preach to the Protestant content/context not pretext.

Of course all Grace is coming from God specifically through our most beloved Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit as He promised His Church on earth, and till the end of time. The point which obviously you seem to miss, is while He bought us into this world “without” our cooperation, he will not free us from it “without” our cooperation. Its not happening by “chance” or by some feeble half backed attempt to seek the Lord.

And thats the journey of ourselfs into ourselfs seeking Him. Because that my dear is where He reside’s in YOUR Soul. Our cooperation isn’t just the minimal attendence of days of Obligation and SundayXEucharist. Study of Doctrine and understanding all great. Its “prayer” constant. That is the KEY to understanding the Kingdom within YOU. And yes its Gods Kingdom and its “really” there. And no you have no control over His Will, its His will all the time. There’s no invoking God at your will. You lay down your life at the Cross in complete love and surrender to His Will.

Perhaps the Protestants [God only knows why you mention them] have an issue as others because of the cynical attitude displayed by lack of charity, my, where is the Love You Neighbor? Is it only for those whom you choose to Love? How quick we are to judge others in these few pages.

Our brothers message is not all wrong, and you are not all right.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

At the resurrection, we will be resurrected bodies.

I think your theology smack of gnosticisim.

Whos talking about the resurrection? Your body is going to Heaven?

The only smack of anything is your complete lack of understanding. So are you now saying I’m a heretic? How charitable of you. And no I do not misunderstand what I read over a dozen times seeking to understand. In fact I have her books here, what page would like to discuss? Or would like to cry heretic and flee from a charitable conversation.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

You might want to look at the Pelagian heresy

So now what other type of heretic would my Catholic Brothers and Sisters lable me?

Re-read my posts “think” before you rush to act off your feelings and type.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

At the resurrection, we will be resurrected bodies. Christ after the resurrection had a body and still have that body in heaven

The Saints “are” in Heaven. And “you” can go visit many of their “bodies” in Rome. In fact you can visit and see St. Teresa’s heart. Saints go directly to the judgement thus Heaven. So do explain?

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

A life devoted to the service of others is the way in which one loses the burdens of the self. The realization of God in others and in the service of God through serving them is the surest way to find Him within oneself.
What is missing is the realization of the Christ within us.
The best way to worship God is to love and serve that which is dearest to Him - His creations. The best worship is adoration.
My sense is that the redemption that Jesus offered was realization of what we are, and the original sin is the ignorance of it. As to what we are, both Jesus and the psalms give clues.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.
Similarly, when Jesus was accused of saying that He was God, he replied as follows:
John 10:34: Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
In other words, “sure I am - so are you.” He was quoting scripture of course, but if He meant something else I’m thinking He would have said something else.
To act according to His will is to love Him and to love others. The realization of Him in yourself and in those around you is enlightenment.

Your friend
Sufjon

This is absolutely 100% correct Catholicism. In fact I can’t even imagine where else it could have been learned.

Yes Christ the King is the focus. We prepair in this world, just as and athlete prepairs for a game, or a soldier for war. The judgement being the main event and thus all prep is over, finished, done.

And yes correctly understood we “share” in the Sonship of Jesus Christ as His brothers and Sisters in Heaven. He is the King of Heaven without doubt.

And yes all this relates to sanctification. It is on topic.

Come on back and lets talk Sufjon, I haven’t found you guilty or condemned “yet”

The Kingdom of God is within you…for sure. In short you are the Kingdom of God minus your physical state which is in “exile” here per “Catholicism” the :“Valley of Tears”

Your choice is to cooperate or not with the Lords will. I do not know who or how or when individuals are Blessed, that is the Lords will. In other words I may pray all my life in obedience and God may save a soul from my prayer 10-years from now. He may or may not choose to Bless me, it may be trial by fire. I do not know. I walk in His Will completely in trust that he will not abandon me, and He never has, andI see God in everyone. Because God truly is in everyone. Suffering correctly understood is sanctification which should be offered to the Lord. Your daily trials should be offered to the Lord, all of it is Sanctification. How you come to comprehend, understand, thus actively Love your God and Love you Neighbor is sanctification through the correct process.

So yes Blessed or the poor and meek, there is no soul whom mankind has cast away where God does not dwell. Man will caste himself away by his own free-will. Correctly understood we live in the period of Gods Mercy. After Mercy comes judgement. That soul who has MH issues, or is Retarted, or is poor child on the street abandoned, their God dwells. Thus when you condemn one you in fact condemn Jesus Christ and yourself.

Which also is why the statement of do not put off till tommorrow what you can do today in relation to God is of utmost importance. For tommorrow in not a guarentee, we live by Gods Mercy by the moment. When your number is up. its up, I don’t care where you are.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

The physical self is of no value? What the heck did Christ become human for?

Redemption, what Adam and Eve lost through disobedience Jesus and the Blessed Mother regained by obedience. God completely humbled himself and descended to take on the fully human nature and fully divine nature through the hypostatic union. Thus Jesus and Our Lady become the perfect example to follow in the physical world which is fallen.

Mankind was dead until God become man as the Son in Jesus through His will by choosing the Blessed Mother. Thus all Grace came through Our Lady at the Incarnation, all Grace flows through the Blessed Mother by our Lords Will. He choose Mary to come to as the new Ark, and choose us to come to Him through the same means thus Our Lady. This wasn’t well received in Heaven per Lucifer and Scripture thus the war in Heaven, cast to his kingdom which he reigns as prince of this physical world. Though the outcome is a known. The gates of hell shall never prevail in the Mystical Body of Christ.

With St Michael in Heaven and then Gabriel at the Annunciation we see the acceptence of Gods Will in Heaven by all who choose to follow God and not satan. An Angel fell and become a demon through pride and man becomes a Saint by humility. Gabriels approach to Mary at the Annunciation is most telling.

Of course God can save whom He desire as He wills. So when the question arrives does one “have to” come to the Lord through Mary, God can do as He wills. However Mary is the Gate the Neck of the Mystical Body of Christ. Which is why on most very old Catholic Churchs through the main enterence you pass through the Incarnation[as seen above the main enterence], at the far end is the Cross. Which we come to understand through life. So pick up your Cross and follow me is the message and the example.

Peace and Love

 

[GaryTaylor]

How? Christ is raised with his own body: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself”; but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, “all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear,” but Christ “will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body,” into a “spiritual body”

Judgement in this temporal life is immediate upon death. Which could be read. We are immediately judged. Saints go directly to heaven, as they are now interceeding. The CC does not condemn anyone specifically to hell, nor does it state who is in purgatory. The doctrine is that both exist. Also its a known that many more than just the Canonized Saints are in Heaven…thus “All Saints day”.

According to the Summa Theologica, spiritual beings that have been restored to glorified bodies will have the following basic qualities

Impassibility (immortal / painless) — immunity from death and pain
Subtility (permeability) — freedom from restraint by matter [no Body]
Agility — obedience to spirit with relation to movement and space (the ability to move through space and time with the speed of thought)
Clarity — resplendent beauty of the soul manifested in the body (as when Jesus was transfigured on Mount Tabor)

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church the body after resurrection is changed into a spiritual, imperishable body:

The Christian writers Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, in the 2nd Century, wrote against the idea that only the soul survived. Martyr insists that a man is both soul and body and Christ has promised to raise both, just as his own body was raised. However the Catholic Encyclopedia: ““No doctrine of the Christian Faith”, says St. Augustine, “is so vehemently and so obstinately opposed as the doctrine of the resurrection of the flesh”… This opposition had begun long before the days of St. Augustine:”

What shall happen at the final judgement remains to be seen, in God we Trust. We know whom was resurrected in body and thus doctrine. What “is” happening today is Saints go directly to heaven, and their incorruptable bodies in many case’s are here and could be viewed.

Explained better now?

Peace and Love

 

[Marybeloved]

Hey, People,

I have not read most of the thread, but from what I’ve read, everyone seems to have a point/two. From my previous interactions with Sufjon, this is what I can say from the Catholic view point, as best as I understand it (limited, of course) about Hindu-Catholic differences and similarities.

Hindu and Catholic Metaphysics (understanding of reality) are obviously very different, and these differences affect the whole prism of our respective spiritualities, and the way we approach it.

Hindu and Catholic Spirituality/Mysticism is strikingly similar in many way - But not all.
There’s a strong emphasis in devotion and service in both and a certain sense of deification in both, and the lower/higher natures distinction, and self-denial.

In Hinduism, there’s ultimately only one reality, The Absolute reality manifests itself in what we catholics call “the Cosmos” (Sufjon, if you’re reading this please correct me where I’m off) or the changing realm- The Absolute Reality itself remains eternal and unchanging. The underlying Principle is that, ultimately, all creation is a manifestation of God (The unchanging Absolute being), we are all one true self that we must each realize spiritually. Obviously this afects the spirituality. If everyone is a manifestation of God, then you must love them like yourself, and seeking the good of others cannot in reality be separated from God or the self.

Catholic metaphysics holds a true distinction between all beings- To us, each reality, creation is a true distinct reality of its own, though it gets its being from God who is absolute existence without limit.To us, you can’t be me and I can’t be you, and neither of us can be God, and God is not us, or there is no true self-gift. Our spirituality/mysticism is therefore entirely relational- There must be a true “other” who is not ultimately still “me”. Even in God, there is “other” in the three persons and therefore self-giving.

So Sufjon sees the NT passages from the first prism (lenses) and we and the Jews and the culture of Christ from the second. If we don’t understand the differences, we can argue forever over things we can’t agree on, and fail even to recognize those we can.

In Catholicism, certainly, there is no question of anyone of us other than Christ being God. There’s also no question of anyone saving themselves either. Christ being the God-man has performed an act of love (true self-giving by oblation/sacrifice) to the Father, who has in turn poured his own love on him (The divine life or even God the Holy Spirit)- Remember it’s all about relationship, and mutual self-giving. Adam severed our “umbilical cord” to the life of God by sin and nothing and nobody can earn the life of God/intimate relationship. This severing of his introduced a dis-order to our nature and our world, and now we are not in perfect harmony with the Divine will. Before, our bodies, our passions, our “lower nature” yielded perfectly to the higher nature, and our higher nature, which is the will and intellect (indeed our whole being) yielded perfectly to the Divine will- The world similarly yielded to man and God. There was no “Law of the members” or ego/id/higher-self split in us. Our world and our whole nature was like a flower wholly oriented to the Sun (God) as the highest good, but after sin, it’s oriented inward to the self. (PS- To Hindus, the true self is God, to us, it’s the highest part of the soul but not God)

So the re-establishment of that severed cord cannot be done by us, it’s God’s life- how can we give it to ourselves? We are not God and he’s not us. It’s done only by Christ and we co-operate, but the life itself is Divinity- How can we give ourselves God’s own life? No- It must be given to us as a gift.

Sanctity is conformity/union of our own will to the Divine will- simple. Is it necessary? Ask yourself if it is necessary to be conformed to the will of God? To want/desire/do as he wills? Of course! Justification is nothing other than a re-establishment of grace/spiritual communion with the Blessed Trinity (the umbilical cord we have to God) and the introduction of unearned/unmerited divine life in our souls- The grace gradually transforms you with your co-operation, re-orients your whole being and will to God, and when it’s all done, we say you’re a Saint.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well spoken.

Peace and Love

 

[Sufjon]

Hey, People,

I have not read most of the thread, but from what I’ve read, everyone seems to have a point/two. From my previous interactions with Sufjon, this is what I can say from the Catholic view point, as best as I understand it (limited, of course) about Hindu-Catholic differences and similarities.

Hindu and Catholic Metaphysics (understanding of reality) are obviously very different, and these differences affect the whole prism of our respective spiritualities, and the way we approach it.

Hindu and Catholic Spirituality/Mysticism is strikingly similar in many way - But not all.
There’s a strong emphasis in devotion and service in both and a certain sense of deification in both, and the lower/higher natures distinction, and self-denial.

In Hinduism, there’s ultimately only one reality, The Absolute reality manifests itself in what we catholics call “the Cosmos” (Sufjon, if you’re reading this please correct me where I’m off) or the changing realm- The Absolute Reality itself remains eternal and unchanging. The underlying Principle is that, ultimately, all creation is a manifestation of God (The unchanging Absolute being), we are all one true self that we must each realize spiritually. Obviously this afects the spirituality. If everyone is a manifestation of God, then you must love them like yourself, and seeking the good of others cannot in reality be separated from God or the self.

Catholic metaphysics holds a true distinction between all beings- To us, each reality, creation is a true distinct reality of its own, though it gets its being from God who is absolute existence without limit.To us, you can’t be me and I can’t be you, and neither of us can be God, and God is not us, or there is no true self-gift. Our spirituality/mysticism is therefore entirely relational- There must be a true “other” who is not ultimately still “me”. Even in God, there is “other” in the three persons and therefore self-giving.

So Sufjon sees the NT passages from the first prism (lenses) and we and the Jews and the culture of Christ from the second. If we don’t understand the differences, we can argue forever over things we can’t agree on, and fail even to recognize those we can.

In Catholicism, certainly, there is no question of anyone of us other than Christ being God. There’s also no question of anyone saving themselves either. Christ being the God-man has performed an act of love (true self-giving by oblation/sacrifice) to the Father, who has in turn poured his own love on him (The divine life or even God the Holy Spirit)- Remember it’s all about relationship, and mutual self-giving. Adam severed our “umbilical cord” to the life of God by sin and nothing and nobody can earn the life of God/intimate relationship. This severing of his introduced a dis-order to our nature and our world, and now we are not in perfect harmony with the Divine will. Before, our bodies, our passions, our “lower nature” yielded perfectly to the higher nature, and our higher nature, which is the will and intellect (indeed our whole being) yielded perfectly to the Divine will- The world similarly yielded to man and God. There was no “Law of the members” or ego/id/higher-self split in us. Our world and our whole nature was like a flower wholly oriented to the Sun (God) as the highest good, but after sin, it’s oriented inward to the self. (PS- To Hindus, the true self is God, to us, it’s the highest part of the soul but not God)

So the re-establishment of that severed cord cannot be done by us, it’s God’s life- how can we give it to ourselves? We are not God and he’s not us. It’s done only by Christ and we co-operate, but the life itself is Divinity- How can we give ourselves God’s own life? No- It must be given to us as a gift.

Sanctity is conformity/union of our own will to the Divine will- simple. Is it necessary? Ask yourself if it is necessary to be conformed to the will of God? To want/desire/do as he wills? Of course! Justification is nothing other than a re-establishment of grace/spiritual communion with the Blessed Trinity (the umbilical cord we have to God) and the introduction of unearned/unmerited divine life in our souls- The grace gradually transforms you with your co-operation, re-orients your whole being and will to God, and when it’s all done, we say you’re a Saint.

Great explanation MaryBeloved! Eloquently done too!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jmoneyideas]

Wow @Marybeloved that was a great expanation…!