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GaryTaylor
Guest
Whats your personal belief Jon. I know you follow God close or you wouldn’t be here year after year. Whats you feelings or perceptions on santification through your lifes experience?
Peace
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Peace
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Near Death Experience, Masters Social Work. The NDE experience bought immediately from lukewarm to involved, for God happened in those moments definately. The Rosary just took me deeper, in and out of what I’m still trying to comprehend.
With the Rosary I actually feel like I’m being led by the hand. Thus the years of reading on the mystics. which have gave me great insight. To me its all real 100%, if theres another reality which I know attracted Merton and Belecki. I don’t know. I only know, what I know. Peace
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Sufjon
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Sufjon
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Hi FHansen: If I understand your question, the answer is rather difficult for me to explain. I heard an Eric Clapton song once where he wondered if his dead son would recognize him in heaven. Kind of the same idea in terms of retaining identity. While it is comforting to think that we would see good old Aunt Louise or Uncle Frank in heaven, Aunt Louise and uncle Frank were only individualized permutations of the whole. Once you are enmeshed in the bliss of the whole, they are present in the sum, and their individualized permutations are superfluous at that point.
I’m not sure if I explained that well. In answer to Eric Clapton’s question, (
) I am of the conviction that neither of them will care, because they finally will know each other fully. They will be one with each other and one with the whole. The two of them will never again suffer the loss of one another. Until then, may God bless them both and all who have suffered.Your friend
Sufjon
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fhansen
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I guess the question comes up, why would we exist as “individualized permutations of the whole” now if there’s something better? While we’d agree that we were meant for something better, are we sure that this individualization is really inferior? It’s kind of like asking if God is truly transcendent, as in superior, as a Person or as a more nebulous, probably inherently less knowable entity or essence.Hi FHansen: If I understand your question, the answer is rather difficult for me to explain. I heard an Eric Clapton song once where he wondered if his dead son would recognize him in heaven. Kind of the same idea in terms of retaining identity. While it is comforting to think that we would see good old Aunt Louise or Uncle Frank in heaven, Aunt Louise and uncle Frank were only individualized permutations of the whole. Once you are enmeshed in the bliss of the whole, they are present in the sum, and their individualized permutations are superfluous at that point.
I’m not sure if I explained that well. In answer to Eric Clapton’s question, (
Your friend
Sufjon
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Marybeloved
Guest
Gary, I used to read a forum discussing these things about Buddhism and Catholicism, I feel that it’s pretty much the same with Hinduism. I theorize that enlightenment or self realization is experiencing your own being as being- experiencing your own existence directly, or knowing it experentially, rather than intellectually as we do normally- “knowing it in your bones” may be a nice metaphor- realizing it. There were many discussions to that effect.You know I have read “some” of the Buddist and Zen teaching. To some degree I feel they are catching on to something.
But I’m not seeing or hearing exacly what it is. To me it seems they have found the soul as the C-Mystics do, they either don’t have it identified, or it seems elusive at that point?
With myself I see what the Catholic Mystics are saying through my own NDE, and my MSW helped with the ego, illusion, behavior etc. Thus diving into faith by faith. But from own personal experience without detail, I’m totally convinced they are spot-on. In other words they explained what I could comprehend about myself. Not to compare mysef to the saints, but I believe it was signal grace as expalined in the Rosary. Whicj is why I continue to pray daily, I’m stupified by it. But I have never been anywhere but the Catholic Church. So I couldn’t tell how it is to drive a Lincoln if all I ever drove was a Cadillac.
Buy hey, to me its about respectful open dialogue.
It was explained by some Thomists thus:
What do we all things have in common and what is particular to each? How they are known/experienced is the issue and the reason for why the Buddhists (and I gather even Hindus) experience reality the way they do which leads them to the conclusions they have about reality.
There is *****what**** we are*** (distinctions) and the fact that we are. The latter (being) refers to something we all have in common- the common denominator of all things. What is it? If you think about all things from the highest (God) to the lowest (if we can know it) like a rock, or elements like a hydrogen molecule, or an atom, proton etc. What does God, the angels, you and me, the chair I sit on, the sky…What do we all have in common?- What ties us together in one group? Simply- the fact that we are!- Existence- being. God has it, the grass has it, you and I have it, oxygen has it!
Now, Essence (nature) is what makes grass, grass and not Marybeloved or Gary Taylor! It’s what makes water, water and rock, rock, and not each other, despite the fact that they all are. What is it? In Thomism (and Catholic metaphysics), it’s only one thing- limitation in being. What does that mean? Basically, essence (the whatness/distinctions of beings) is existence/being that is limited in a particular way. So if you could think of existence like a material constricted in a particular way/shape, that resultant thing would be an essence. But God is also an essence (distinct)- How, if essence is limitation? His distinction is the fact of his limitlessness- infinity- Absolute existence/being without limit.
Those Thomists said that the zen Buddhists approach the fact of being directly by experience by way of negating concepts (the don’t reason intellectually principle), thus making it easy to experience being directly but impossible to come to the understanding of essences. If we can consider all things on a plane (including God)- where we compare them all- to see how they measure against each other. Imagine God rising highest to infinity, from the plane, then the angels, mankind, animals, cosmos etc. The differences you see would represent essences, but if you come low enough, you’ll see where they have one thing in common running through all of them- they all exist!
Zen practitioners go to the center of their beings and experience their own being directly, as it comes to them from God- but they can’t see the distinctions because this simple fact they experience directly (being) is what runs through the entire cosmos. So they experience their own being as common with that of the rock, other people etc. But they can’t experience the individualities, apart from their own, so they conclude that all reality is just one being. They can know the fact of being “To be” that belongs to all by knowing it in themselves because all that exists has it. But that’s all they know (from our perspective) -the fact of being. The particular existence that is you, cannot be experienced by me as my own, no matter how close/intimate we get. I can know something of what it is to be you by experiencing it in my self- But I can not experience you directly. Parts of you are strictly your individual experience that cannot be shared. Those are what we Call identities. And to us, yours can’t be mine and vice versa- neither can we partake of God’s identity. This is something that can be seen easy enough intellectually- I can’t experience Gary Taylor, or the tree in the back yard. But not if you approach it one way only (experential) in a way that completely subordinates the other (reason), or you’ll have one but not the other.
That’s how I’ve come to see it myself. What do you think? Hope I haven’t confused you.
Big topic, Gary, but I would start off with a quote from the article I linked.
In other words, at least for me, Sanctification is so important in that it is, as the author says, an inner transformation of our hearts and and life. This is why when an earlier poster stated that it didn’t seem that (in her view) because of our view on the nature of justification that sanctification was even necessary, it seemed so foriegn to me. I remember when I was confirmed, the words spoken by the pastor included “…our growth in grace”. Because I know that I am justified by grace through faith, I want to to do His commands. I want to help my fellow man. I want my faith to be one that works through love. Like Paul, I’m frustrated and confused when I fail to do His will. But in the midst of that frustration and confusion, I look to the cross, and to the strength I receive in confession and absolution and the Eucharist, to help me to continue to “work out my salvation in fear and trembling”.
In short, I want to continue to grow to be like Him.
Jon
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi FHansen: The individualized permutations are not lesser in fact. Only in perception. Each part has the ability to realize the whole. Each part is contained in the whole and the whole is contained in each part. They only appear as separate components, but they are all interdependent. The point of it all is simply being. There are probably infinite outcomes being played out by countless beings, some of whom we probably wouldn’t recognize as beings. Experience seems to be the point, and we build it as we go. But remember - we believe that all of this happens in the realm of Prakriti, or roughly translated, nature or the material world. Consciousness (that which you truly are) creates the material world. There were some interesting ideas posited by certain physicists in the last century (one f whom was one of the founders of quantum physics) on the dependency that matter has on conscious observation. It seems that everything exists only as potentials until there is conscious observation. These are difficult things to comprehend sometimes.
Your friend
Sufjon
Your friend,
Sufjon
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fhansen
Guest
You’re post here was quite interesting to me. It brings to mind a distinction between the various experiences east and west. Experience is really what we’re ultimately seeking, after all, and not simply for the purpose of being consoled in the here and now but rather in the sense of seeing God, or the Ultimate Reality if that makes more sense to someone.That’s how I’ve come to see it myself. What do you think? Hope I haven’t confused you.
I can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort, while I can relate to what seems to be a more specific experience-the experience of God, Himself, a direct intuitive gift of knowing Him. In this experience (unfortunately a one-time event for me
), there’s no question that one is in the presence of another, wholly superior being who’s orchestrating the whole thing for your benefit/understanding. The nature of the Being is revealed by the presence itself, and that Being is without doubt a separate Person. The experience of this aspect of separation is no different than the knowledge of ourselves as separate individuals here. The difference is that, with this Being, there’s a total sense of having come “home”, an almost strange but absolute familiarity.Now no one needs to believe me on any of this, of course, but it jives with the testimony of other people, all of whom I’m certain are much more holy and trustworthy than myself. In any case my purpose was to comment on and compare notes on the differences/similarities.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Yes, my friend, I believe you may have experienced bits of what the teachers of the interior life call interior lights- its supposed to herald/happen as we get closer and closer to infused contemplation, which is God of his own initiative infusing directly in you, true, direct and experiential knowledge of himself. Some-where between the end of discursive/affective meditation, when the prayer has evolved to the prayer of simple regard/affective attention and before the aridity of the dark night of the senses sets in. There are two aspects we can experience of God, or three- Evelyn Underhill describes three ways quite well, depending, it seems, on our personality. The transcendence of God (God as wholly other), immanence of God (as living in our souls) and in creation-suddenly the whole creation lights up, like a Christmas tree switched on, it all looks different and you “see” God everywhere and in everything. But these are ways of contemplation, happen very rarely or not at all (which is the case for most people) in the usual course of prayer until we reach the illuminative way, where it becomes the “norm”. It may be the reason you experienced it only once. A way you can know if it was this experience (which is a little taste of contemplation) is that during this experience, its impossible to doubt- you know absolutely, more than you know that the world exists, in a way.You’re post here was quite interesting to me. It brings to mind a distinction between the various experiences east and west. Experience is really what we’re ultimately seeking, after all, and not simply for the purpose of being consoled in the here and now but rather in the sense of seeing God, or the Ultimate Reality if that makes more sense to someone.
I can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort, while I can relate to what seems to be a more specific experience-the experience of God, Himself, a direct intuitive gift of knowing Him. In this experience (unfortunately a one-time event for me
Now no one needs to believe me on any of this, of course, but it jives with the testimony of other people, all of whom I’m certain are much more holy and trustworthy than myself. In any case my purpose was to comment on and compare notes on the differences/similarities.
What you experienced is God’s transcendence- As Fr. William Most describes it, the knowledge of the awful nothingness of oneself and all things compared to God. You know God literally as the one who is “beyond” all. Others experience God’s immanence (what I call smallness) God in your soul. Then we have the awakening to his engulfing/ thick presence pf God in all creation etc.
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fhansen
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I’m not sure. *I *still existed-although I could’ve cared less-I was totally focused on the Other-I had no choice, I suppose, but wouldn’t have wanted to remove my “gaze” anyway. But by far the overall pervading nature of the “thickness” was of absolute, infinitely unconditional Love-on a scale and of an order I’d never known before or since. The experience of that “quality”, especially, is what never left me.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Of course you still existed! Think about it- someone knew what was going on, some witness could see that you were experiencing this- This witness is you- And it is the proof of individuality. If “you” disappeared, then you wouldn’t know what was going on, and would not be telling this story.
This experience of God’s utter beauty (the you can’t gaze elsewhere aspect). Like someone who sees a beautiful skylight and is taken by it for a second- only yours is multiplied by a thousand fold, because you don’t just see something good or beautiful- but beauty itself, and love and goodness, God himself makes his presence which is always with you “felt” or known directly by you. This is contemplation. And the self-forgetfulness you experienced is also typical- To see God (even in the veil- because believe me, even that overwhelming presence is still veiled) is to love him alone- there’s just no room for anyone else- he’s too good, beautiful- him alone, is what you can attend to, not even yourself. It’s possibly why God remains hidden, as we’re taught- to give us a chance to make a true choice of him.What do you think?
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fhansen
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Absolutely! He wants us to choose to find Him. He wants us to learn of our need for Him, to learn of His supreme “value”. I think it’s probably we who are hiding, though, the truth be known.Of course you still existed! Think about it- someone knew what was going on, some witness could see that you were experiencing this- This witness is you- And it is the proof of individuality. If “you” disappeared, then you wouldn’t know what was going on, and would not be telling this story.
What do you think?
Which is probably what St Augustine meant when he said,**I found thee not, O Lord, without, because I erred in seeking thee without that wert within. **
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GaryTaylor
Guest
QUOTE=fhansen;8705530]You’re post here was quite interesting to me. It brings to mind a distinction between the various experiences east and west. Experience is really what we’re ultimately seeking, after all, and not simply for the purpose of being consoled in the here and now but rather in the sense of seeing God, or the Ultimate Reality if that makes more sense to someone.
I can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort, while I can relate to what seems to be a more specific experience-the experience of God, Himself, a direct intuitive gift of knowing Him. In this experience (unfortunately a one-time event for me), there’s no question that one is in the presence of another, wholly superior being who’s orchestrating the whole thing for your benefit/understanding. The nature of the Being is revealed by the presence itself, and that Being is without doubt a separate Person. The experience of this aspect of separation is no different than the knowledge of ourselves as separate individuals here. The difference is that, with this Being, there’s a total sense of having come “home”, an almost strange but absolute familiarity.
Now no one needs to believe me on any of this, of course, but it jives with the testimony of other people, all of whom I’m certain are much more holy and trustworthy than myself. In any case my purpose was to comment on and compare notes on the differences/similarities.
“seeing God, or the Ultimate Reality” I like the way you explained this above,and I believe without a doubt it connects what Marybeloved stated and I what I sense.
“there’s no question that one is in the presence of another, wholly superior being” none what-so-ever, and once you reach you truth, than there is no denial. Or your telling yourself a lie. Which is without a doubt a problem.
“can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort”
I hear you, to me its sounds like GOD flirting. In other words instead of St Teresa if we transfered her Interior Castle to Jacobs Ladder which bears a striking spiritual similarity. I believe there’s an ascent happening. There’s a valid spiritual awakening just as your saying, but at a point its focus is lost, for the reason their is no focus. so the focus becomes part of the whole. Which gets back to exactly what Marybeloved is saying, in essense, never mind just the Soul=Energy, you would also be part of matter, all matter, never mind the other life forces’s which exist, plants, animals etc. But one of the other, as in each of us. Thus no self-soul as an individual.
Also the makeup of the human being is matter/energy. Energy cannot be destroyed, only displaced. Thus the matter is left behind, ashs to ashs, dust to dust, the energy with the, well, ascent or descent of the Soul=Energy, Life force, conscious self, continues infinitity. It has an identity as an individual Soul, an infinate identity in either direction.
IMHO metaphysics comes into play with the idea of the total resurrection. Otherwise I can’t even wrap my head around that. However with God anything is possible as we do see with His resurrection. The miracles for example St Theresa’s heart, is a Sign from God. In other words Theresa had a Vision from God, an Angel was sent to her and pierced her Heart with a Spear, the Angel told Her, Now, you have what you have been waiting for form the Lord.
The book was written “before” she died. Her heart is on display and the Spear piercing could be seen. Its incorruptable by Gods will. Funny sense of humor He has huh?
Miracle’s are the Holy Spirit who is outside of time, coming in and out of time as God so wills. What a Miracle does by the HS is transfers information, which otherwise may have taken 10-20-30-40 years to understand, thus a Blessing through sanctifying Grace. Time just “seems” to run forever, but in truth it is finite. In fact it can’t last forever. Its just as Genesis states, God created this, and when there is no more use for it, it will cease to exist. In other words when mankind no longer has the ability to learn, than time will no longer serve a purpose to God. What other purpose could their be through logic and reason, science? No only it makes sense, but in fact its happening before our eyes.
We see distortion, because God isn’t working in a direct line forward, it a zig-zag line. Look at the geneology in Matthew and the 28 generations to Christ. Lot of Sinners and Saints in their. Thus the zig-zag line.
Anyway with Luther I find all this interesting also. The period of time he lived was right in that era of St John of the Cross and St Theresa. So Luther being a young adult was struggling with the monastic life. Its not hard to see his personality, and that personality at that age in a monastic life? Not really a fit IMO. And it was a problematic era in monastic life for Catholics which we see with St Teresa and St John of the Cross, who lead the reform of monastic life in that period. So God only knows what Luther had himself involved in. I know they had him highly upset in there. He was obviously very intelligent. But one has to wonder how all of it played out as we fast-forward to today. I think there’s only one Lutheran monestary in the USA. He was outraged by the time he left. All the details just are not known. Geez they locked up St John of the Cross in a closet for 9-months feeding him bread and water till he escaped. 
Peace/Love
I can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort, while I can relate to what seems to be a more specific experience-the experience of God, Himself, a direct intuitive gift of knowing Him. In this experience (unfortunately a one-time event for me
), there’s no question that one is in the presence of another, wholly superior being who’s orchestrating the whole thing for your benefit/understanding. The nature of the Being is revealed by the presence itself, and that Being is without doubt a separate Person. The experience of this aspect of separation is no different than the knowledge of ourselves as separate individuals here. The difference is that, with this Being, there’s a total sense of having come “home”, an almost strange but absolute familiarity.Now no one needs to believe me on any of this, of course, but it jives with the testimony of other people, all of whom I’m certain are much more holy and trustworthy than myself. In any case my purpose was to comment on and compare notes on the differences/similarities.
“seeing God, or the Ultimate Reality” I like the way you explained this above,and I believe without a doubt it connects what Marybeloved stated and I what I sense.
“there’s no question that one is in the presence of another, wholly superior being” none what-so-ever, and once you reach you truth, than there is no denial. Or your telling yourself a lie. Which is without a doubt a problem.
“can’t relate to the experience of simply being, of being part of the whole of existence itself, which sounds to me like a valid awakening of some sort”
I hear you, to me its sounds like GOD flirting. In other words instead of St Teresa if we transfered her Interior Castle to Jacobs Ladder which bears a striking spiritual similarity. I believe there’s an ascent happening. There’s a valid spiritual awakening just as your saying, but at a point its focus is lost, for the reason their is no focus. so the focus becomes part of the whole. Which gets back to exactly what Marybeloved is saying, in essense, never mind just the Soul=Energy, you would also be part of matter, all matter, never mind the other life forces’s which exist, plants, animals etc. But one of the other, as in each of us. Thus no self-soul as an individual.
Also the makeup of the human being is matter/energy. Energy cannot be destroyed, only displaced. Thus the matter is left behind, ashs to ashs, dust to dust, the energy with the, well, ascent or descent of the Soul=Energy, Life force, conscious self, continues infinitity. It has an identity as an individual Soul, an infinate identity in either direction.
IMHO metaphysics comes into play with the idea of the total resurrection. Otherwise I can’t even wrap my head around that. However with God anything is possible as we do see with His resurrection. The miracles for example St Theresa’s heart, is a Sign from God. In other words Theresa had a Vision from God, an Angel was sent to her and pierced her Heart with a Spear, the Angel told Her, Now, you have what you have been waiting for form the Lord.
The book was written “before” she died. Her heart is on display and the Spear piercing could be seen. Its incorruptable by Gods will. Funny sense of humor He has huh?
Miracle’s are the Holy Spirit who is outside of time, coming in and out of time as God so wills. What a Miracle does by the HS is transfers information, which otherwise may have taken 10-20-30-40 years to understand, thus a Blessing through sanctifying Grace. Time just “seems” to run forever, but in truth it is finite. In fact it can’t last forever. Its just as Genesis states, God created this, and when there is no more use for it, it will cease to exist. In other words when mankind no longer has the ability to learn, than time will no longer serve a purpose to God. What other purpose could their be through logic and reason, science? No only it makes sense, but in fact its happening before our eyes.
We see distortion, because God isn’t working in a direct line forward, it a zig-zag line. Look at the geneology in Matthew and the 28 generations to Christ. Lot of Sinners and Saints in their. Thus the zig-zag line.
Anyway with Luther I find all this interesting also. The period of time he lived was right in that era of St John of the Cross and St Theresa. So Luther being a young adult was struggling with the monastic life. Its not hard to see his personality, and that personality at that age in a monastic life? Not really a fit IMO. And it was a problematic era in monastic life for Catholics which we see with St Teresa and St John of the Cross, who lead the reform of monastic life in that period. So God only knows what Luther had himself involved in. I know they had him highly upset in there.
He was obviously very intelligent. But one has to wonder how all of it played out as we fast-forward to today. I think there’s only one Lutheran monestary in the USA. He was outraged by the time he left. All the details just are not known. Geez they locked up St John of the Cross in a closet for 9-months feeding him bread and water till he escaped. Peace/Love
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right, and you know its real because it doesn’t disolve like the dream of the imagination. And it could only do one thing because of its reality, bring you closer. Only aspects become forgotten, the main message be it a vision or whatever, is never forgotten.
Its a difficult thing in the sense that any progress seems very little, because God is infinite. So next to him it appears as nothing. But nevertheless you see the progress. All sin becomes magnified, because when reality of truth sets in, you understand you must do the right thing then. There’s a magnitude thats undeniable to the experience.
Peace/Love
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Absolutely, write anything down immediately. And always a good spiritual advisor. That true choice, everything is in that choice. Literally your life here, and your eternal life. Remains in your hands through your free-will, here, in the immediate.Of course you still existed! Think about it- someone knew what was going on, some witness could see that you were experiencing this- This witness is you- And it is the proof of individuality. If “you” disappeared, then you wouldn’t know what was going on, and would not be telling this story.
What do you think?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well spoken and I agree.
The justification part though. Are we not justified by God’s justice, He makes us just, in so far as He bestows on us the gift of His Grace, as He wills, which begin’s the purification process of the soul interiorly and adheres to it as the soul’s own holiness, as long as the Soul move’s foward in a State of Grace. The purification through Mercy/Love is sanctifying Grace, through the Lords will as He wills.
We receive sanctifying grace through our imitation of the Lord and His Passion.
There’s nothing which justifys us to anything in Gods Mercy. We are all guilty sinners. Justice comes not by us but from God who after the period of Mercy bestowed upon man, come’s the Justice.
In other words wouldn’t the idea of justification place control in our hands, as if we could say to the Lord, this is what I did that justifys me? Instead of understanding the theory that humility means to grow smaller and smaller, through penance by Love that “Thy Will Be Done” as He wills.
Justification, doesn’t it imply pride?
Honestly I’ve read on Luther/Erasmus which I found facinating and tragic. Trent and the doctrines. However I’m not actually seeing how the Justification plays into anything but by Gods will.
In other words at the judgement as vaguely as I could imagine. The Lord may say, you did this and that, and thus this your reward. But I don’t grasp how we could do anything but lay down our life at the Cross, as in fact a slave to the Lord.
In other words for example I worked with the poor, needy, addicts, aids patients, homeless, retardation, mental heath. But I can’t say any of that justifys me to anything. I believe its enlightened me through Gods santifying Grace, in my finate human understanding to begin to see Love they neighbor, as God see’s Love. I mean there’s no earning process in Love or taking, its a constant in giving it away.
I don’t know I’m just speaking from my mind, and perhaps not making sense my brother.
Peace/Love
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