Salvation of Atheists based on Works.

[troyjs]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

 

[Nita]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

Only God knows.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I know an atheist (an engineer that I work with) that is one of the most decent people I know. He is a foreman for Habitat for Humanity, and engages in many other social ministries.

If I were God, this guy would get into heaven before some Catholics that I know.

Alas, I am not God. And NOBODY knows how invincible ignorance works. The Church acknowledges that it is possible, but cannot say how, and cannot even say if one single person has ever achieved it.

The ordinary means of salvation is Christian Baptism, which is guaranteed to work 100% of the time (perhaps with occasional resort to Confession or Unction if we mess up really badly). So we must never neglect our ministry to preach the Gospel and Baptize as many as we possibly can, for that is the *only *means that is assured to be successful.

 

[Luke65]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

Atheists by definition do not “sincerely seek God”. Please read more carefully. This teaching has nothing to do with atheists, it only has to do with those who sincerely seek God.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.” (Romans 1:18-23)

“Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.” (CCC #1859)

May they wise up before death and begin to sincerely seek the Truth, we pray. God bless.

 

[MichaelHowling]

The church teaches " There is NO salvation outside of the Catholic Church. The church is the body of Christ and therefore, no salvation outside of Christ exists. Salvation is not a right as some people might think…or something to be gained if you follow a certain rubric or religion.

It is a free gift given from a God who IS love …and love wants only the best for the loved…Himself.

Now, knowing this…and that : God “wills ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge…” . … It happens, lest we pose it an obstacle…not being open to God’s grace…not participating with that grace.

This happens when someone refuses…but to those truly ignorant, or are continually striving…heaven is open to them by God’s own will.

We as catholics are bound by the sacraments and are asked to reveal these doorways that share Gods own blessed life and transmit grace to the world…but God is NOT bound by sacraments and in fact works outside of sacraments USING THE SAVING GRACE IN THE CHURCH …WHICH IS CHRIST’S BODY IN ONCE AND FOR ALL SACRIFCE THAT IS CONSTANTLY PRESENTED TO A GOD WHO KNOWS NO TIME…PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE BEING BEFORE HIM…and the prayers and sacrifice of the body, the church offered over through Him with Him and in Him.

With all that background…

to answer your question …

The degree to which they know and the circumstances of their lives …ALL go to judgement with them (and us). WE ALL have the responsibility to respond with our lives to truth and goodness as we know it.

 

[Richca]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

As Luke65 mentioned, I do not see that the quote from Lumen Gentium above has anything to do with atheists. By definition, an atheist is one who explicitly denies the existence of God. The quote above is about people who either sincerely seek God or at least people who affirm His existence yet may not have an explicit knowledge of God.

 

[DavidFilmer]

ABy definition, an atheist is one who explicitly denies the existence of God.

Not necessarily. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, which is not quite the same thing as explicitly denying God. I don’t believe in life on Mars, but I would be quite excited to learn that our Curiosity probe had found some bacteria. I would not consider myself as someone who explicitly denies the existence of life on Mars (I would never attend a “no life on Mars” rally and hold up a handmade poster as we march on Area 51).

… those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God

I have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of life on Mars, through no blame on my part (I have always been told there is no life on Mars by those who I considered knowledgeable about the subject, and have never had any reason not to believe this).

 

[Sparkythedog]

I know an atheist (an engineer that I work with) that is one of the most decent people I know. He is a foreman for Habitat for Humanity, and engages in many other social ministries.

If I were God, this guy would get into heaven before some Catholics that I know.

Alas, I am not God. And NOBODY knows how invincible ignorance works. The Church acknowledges that it is possible, but cannot say how, and cannot even say if one single person has ever achieved it.

The ordinary means of salvation is Christian Baptism, which is guaranteed to work 100% of the time (perhaps with occasional resort to Confession or Unction if we mess up really badly). So we must never neglect our ministry to preach the Gospel and Baptize as many as we possibly can, for that is the *only *means that is assured to be successful.

How would you personally feel if you knew that engineer, who volunteers his time for Habitat For Humanity, were suffering unspeakable torture in Hell for all eternity due to his unbelief?

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

This is talking about people who don’t know about Christ or his Church. It also says people that sincerely seek God, atheists are atheists because they don’t believe in God. This applies to people like the Native Americans before the introduction of Catholicism.

 

[bobbyhillisabro]

Not necessarily. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, which is not quite the same thing as explicitly denying God. I don’t believe in life on Mars, but I would be quite excited to learn that our Curiosity probe had found some bacteria. I would not consider myself as someone who explicitly denies the existence of life on Mars (I would never attend a “no life on Mars” rally and hold up a handmade poster as we march on Area 51).

I have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of life on Mars, through no blame on my part (I have always been told there is no life on Mars by those who I considered knowledgeable about the subject, and have never had any reason not to believe this).

Your analogy of life on Mars describes an agnostic. Agnostics believe there could be a god, or there might not be, but don’t hold to a definitive.

 

[po18guy]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

Atheists have basically eliminated themselves from this proposition, as they have heard of the Gospel and rejected it. Still, God’s mercy is available to them.

 

[simple_soul]

Atheists have basically eliminated themselves from this proposition, as they have heard of the Gospel and rejected it. Still, God’s mercy is available to them.

Isn’t hearing the Gospel and knowing the Gospel two different things?

 

[Steinway]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

I don’t think Lumen Gentium is referring to modern evangelical atheists who are litigating against Nativity displays, prayer in school and the Ten Commandments. It’s likely referring to those in the far reaches of the earth who have not heard the Gospel. If it is any consolation, atheists are actually a very small grouping, just very vocal: “According to a 2012 graph published by the Pew Research Center (an American Think Tank Organization based in Washington, D.C. that provides Government information on issues, attitudes and trends shaping the United States), people describing themselves as “atheist” represented 2% of the total US population”:

ArguingWithAtheists.com

 

[JRKH]

By definition, an atheist is one who explicitly denies the existence of God.

Not necessarily. An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, which is not quite the same thing as explicitly denying God. I don’t believe in life on Mars, but I would be quite excited to learn that our Curiosity probe had found some bacteria. I would not consider myself as someone who explicitly denies the existence of life on Mars (I would never attend a “no life on Mars” rally and hold up a handmade poster as we march on Area 51).

I have not arrived at an explicit knowledge of life on Mars, through no blame on my part (I have always been told there is no life on Mars by those who I considered knowledgeable about the subject, and have never had any reason not to believe this).

Your analogy of life on Mars describes an agnostic. Agnostics believe there could be a god, or there might not be, but don’t hold to a definitive.

Bobby -
The above exchange calls up one of the difficult things today in trying to answer the question in the OP. Most “atheists” and “agnostics” that I have spoken with do not fall into either clear definition. There seems to be more of a “sliding scale” between the two things. Therefore, in discussion it is often necessary to try to find out just what it is that the person does not believe in and why.

That said, I think that David’s analogy is accurate to what most would describe as “atheist”. An Atheist does not believe in the existence of God. David does not believe in the existence of “martians” (life no Mars). There are (at least) some atheists who are open to new evidence for the existence of God just as David is open to new evidence for the existence of life on mars. Yet for now - in each case - the position is one of disbelief which fulfills the definition of being “a-theist” or “a-martian”…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

How would you personally feel if you knew that engineer, who volunteers his time for Habitat For Humanity, were suffering unspeakable torture in Hell for all eternity due to his unbelief?

This post is a very good example of one of the issues we face in these kinds of discussions. Is the person rejecting “God”, or is s/he rejecting some image or description of God that has been presented to them.
It reminds me of the oft quoted comment by Bishop Sheen about millions hating what they think is the Catholic Church but only hundreds who hate what is actually the Catholic Church.

Sparky is presenting one of the common questions asked by non-believers… How can a just and merciful God punish an otherwise “good” person just because that person doesn’t believe in God as described to them by Christians (or any other particular group)?

I believe this is a fair question.

In answer, I suggest that the person who sincerely believes in and seeks after love and justice and mercy DOES “…sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will…” All of the new covenant is built upon Love and John, in his first letter tells us that God IS Love and that the person who loves knows God (1 John 4:7-8). Of course the Love spoken of here is “Agape”…A selfless brotherly love which seeks the highest good of others.
So - the person who has rejected some “description” or “definition” of God (which by necessity limits that which has no limits), may still be (unknowingly) seeking and serving that which God truly is.

As Christians we all need to recognize that the image of God that is often placed before the world is a highly contradictory one. Jesus said that it is by our Love for one another that the world will know that we are his disciples. Not by our creeds, but by our deeds.
I dare say that we will all be surprised to find out who is and is not in heaven.

Peace
James

 

[DonMack]

Can this question be expanded to include "What if the Church is trying to tell us that all who live a good and moral life go to heaven? Would it change your actions? Would you stop going to mass? Would be more kind to others? Would it be a bad thing if all good people went to heaven?
OR… should this be a separate thread?

 

[Zackeera]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

Let’s not be fooled by the words or mere men. No atheist who simply strives to live a good life will enter heaven. They must put their faith in Jesus Christ, believing and trusting in Him for their salvation:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8&9

 

[agnes_therese]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

Not our decision.

 

[thistle]

In Lumen Gentium, we read in paragraph 16:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.*

If atheists who strive to live a good life can go to heaven, what about atheists who do not strive to live a good life, or who do not strive as much as they can?

An unrepentant atheist will not be saved. The Vatican spokesman also recently made that perfectly clear.
Striving to live a good life is not sufficient to save a person.

 

[Polycarp1]

Atheists by definition do not “sincerely seek God”.

Yes athiest’s choose not to believe and therefore can’t claim and innocent ignorance.