salvation of Jews

[Robbinson]

Any Jew who is interested will seek the information and any Christian should give it to them, as any other person. Sensitivity and with love this should be discussed because the Jew will always be a jew, even if he is aethist, secular, or orthodox. There IS a reason why God chose them alone.

But from the Christian side, we must understand that there has been a remnant prepared to see the coming of Messiah and these 144,000 play a vital role during the time of Tribulation. They will be sealed and protected by God.

Therefore, it is said that were blinded and made deaf for a purpose that God has for them. Who are we to argue with God’s plan.?

The Old Covenant was a Blood Covenant which means that , though the Jewish people may break it, God said He will NEVER break it,… never means never. Torah Jews are still covered by this. We were not. We needed a Christ to die. And live again.

Who is a jew? They are those who descended from Issac. Not one single gentile has ever, nor will ever, replace the Jews as God’s Chosen.

Interestingly, though, the “church”( those who are saved) is the Bride of the Bridegroom Who is Jesus. But the jews are referred to as the Wife of God, the Almighty.

I can’t agree with this - I do agree that God has a covenant with Israel and a special role, even for unbelieving Israel, but it is not a salvic covenant without faith - read Romans 11 and see Paul praying for Israel to believe and talking of the possibility of Israel being grafted in the rootstock again through belief. That discourse would be irrelevant if there was a salvic covenant without faith in Jesus.

As to Jews/Israel v. Gentiles - scripture tells us there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile in Christ. All believers, Jew and Gentile, make up the “Israel of God” - thus Pauls’ description of believers being “spiritual descendants of Abraham”.

I’m sensitive to the issue as a Jewish believer and believe that it is part of God’s plan, for his glory, to bring Israel (to a large extent) back to faith in the end times - but salvation will be through faith and not through the blood covenant without faith. Israelites in the desert who trusted in good and looked to the serpent were spared, those who did not were not and Jesus expressly, when talking to Israel, compared himself to the serpent.

That said, I believe that God desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and thus, if he supernaturally blinded Israel for his greater purpose, in His mercy I trust he will lift the veil for all before death so we/they can respond to His voice and believe in Him.

We must (must) share the gospel will all creation - in God’s words, "to the Jew first, and then the Greek/Gentile).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Doxiemom]

Do you feel that those who are deliberatly blinded and made deaf By God -to the understanding that Jesus was our Savior until the time when their eyes and ears will be made open will be sent to hell for this very reason? Surely their faith in God, for which Christians must be eternally grateful, is still valid .

No amount of evanglism will change them . God forgive us, many tried to do so , causing great pain and suffering. These 144,000 are set aside. For God’s purpose.

Please note that i was not talking about those who are jewish by blood who scorn God, reject God, have no use for a “God”, for they will be held as guilty as any gentile non-believer who rejects Christ.

As you said, you are jewish by blood and were raised in that faith. And then converted. God bless you. God’s purpose for you did not include you being part of those 144.000 needed at some point yet to happen.

But, i can grant that i am not nearly full of understanding and am prone to error. I am a work in progress, i quess.

thank you for replying to my post.

 

[ElisabethM]

Is this a Catholic school? If so, does the text have an Imprimatur? I recommend pointing out the teaching of this text to your diocesan bishop. It’s contrary to Catholic doctrine.

Well, yes–it’s our home school. I bought the text to use with my son for a study of other religions. It is from Ave Maria Press and does bear both the imprimatur and nihil obstat.

The book is a good survey for this age group, but does have a few problems, as the question at hand shows. The author delves into areas where she doesn’t belong at times, and also tends toward “PCism”. Still, I would recommend it in the hands of an able teacher (like me ) for use in jr and sr high school.

Thank you all for this most helpful discussion!

em

 

[Robbinson]

Do you feel that those who are deliberatly blinded and made deaf By God -to the understanding that Jesus was our Savior until the time when their eyes and ears will be made open will be sent to hell for this very reason? Surely their faith in God, for which Christians must be eternally grateful, is still valid .

No amount of evanglism will change them . God forgive us, many tried to do so , causing great pain and suffering. These 144,000 are set aside. For God’s purpose.

Please note that i was not talking about those who are jewish by blood who scorn God, reject God, have no use for a “God”, for they will be held as guilty as any gentile non-believer who rejects Christ.

As you said, you are jewish by blood and were raised in that faith. And then converted. God bless you. God’s purpose for you did not include you being part of those 144.000 needed at some point yet to happen.

But, i can grant that i am not nearly full of understanding and am prone to error. I am a work in progress, i quess.

thank you for replying to my post.

Doxiemom - Thanks for the reply and I appreciate it (and I too am prone to error - scripture is wonderfully complex). As to your important question, no, I do not believe that God will damn anyone to hell who is supernaturally blinded - the Church teaches the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance (we are held accountable to the level of revelation made available to us) so that God who desires that all be saved will, I believe, be merciful to those supernaturally blinded, as well as those who never heard the name Jesus. After all, on the day after Jesus death, more than 99.9% of the worlds population (all those other than those living proximate to Jerusalem) didn’t know of Jesus (by name) and I dont’ believe that those for whom salvation was possible the moment before Jesus death suddenly became unsavable (as faith in Jesus would not be possible without even knowing of Jesus).

Personally - I see the image of the thief on the cross who comes to faith in the moments before death (coupled with Jesus’s statement that his sheep “know his voice”) as a prophetic sign that perhaps in the moments before our deaths God reveals himself to all (including those supernaturally blinded). I spoke about this recently on an EWTN program (www.deepinscripture.com)

As to the 144,000 virgins - I’d just point out that those verses in Revelation (and Revelation generally) are extremely complicated and filled with metephor and symbolism so I wouldn’t base my theology (and doctrinal understanding of God’s plan for Israel, or otherwise) exclusively on those verses. These could well be Jewish believers - or not (but note, even that reading has them as “believers”).

As to the evangelical movement (saw your label), I came to faith through an evangelical group and have many close friends in the Lord who are evangelical and pentacostal - although, perhaps ironcially if you are Catholic leaning in that direction, my prayer and study led me home to the Catholic Church

Blessings in your walk of faith,

Brian

 

[firstmode]

Galatians 3 (New Living Translation)

Galatians 3

The Law and Faith in Christ

1 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. 2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4 Have you experienced[a] so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?
5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”** 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”[d] 11** So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”[e] 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”[f]
**

13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[g] 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised[h] Holy Spirit through faith.

The Law and God’s Promise

15 Dear brothers and sisters,* here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. 16 God gave the promises to Abraham and his child.[j] And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,[k]” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ.* 17 This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise. 18 For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins.** But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.** God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

God’s Children through Faith

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

26 For you are all children[m] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[n] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[o] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.**

 

[firstmode]

Galatians 5 (New Living Translation)

Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

1 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.

2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. 4 **For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
**

5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

11 Dear brothers and sisters,[a] if I were still preaching that you must be circumcised—as some say I do—why am I still being persecuted? If I were no longer preaching salvation through the cross of Christ, no one would be offended. 12 I just wish that those troublemakers who want to mutilate you by circumcision would mutilate themselves.**

13 For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. 14 For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 15 But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.**

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Well, yes–it’s our home school.

We homeshooled our kids too.

It is from Ave Maria Press and does bear both the imprimatur and nihil obstat.

Eeegads! It is disappointing when authors attempt to re-phrase Catholic doctrine into something that it isn’t.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…The book is a good survey for this age group, but does have a few problems…

You might also consider this…

Pope Benedict XVI amended the Good Friday prayer for the Jews, trying to use words that might be seen as less offensive. But the revised prayer still includes the following plea for the Jews, “that God our Lord might enlighten their hearts, so that they might know Jesus Christ as the Savior of all mankind.”

Yet, it seems you can’t please everyone. Rabbi David Rosen, the director of inter-religious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, wrote: “While we appreciate that the text avoids any derogatory language toward Jews, it’s regretful that the prayer explicitly calls for Jews to accept Christianity.”

Yes, the Good Friday prayer still calls for Jews to accept Christ. That’s because we believe Christ is the only door to salvation. This is an irreformable part of our religion, and to those who would wish for the Church to change that, so that it might be otherwise, we say with the apostles, we cannot.

 

[Sean_Conerly]

I still find this very odd… I don’t see anything wrong with it but once a person adopts the belief that Jesus was the Messiah they pretty much have to cease being Jewish since Jews do NOT believe that Jesus was the Messiah… sure it’s only a matter of semantics and that’s why as I said I don’t see anything wrong with it… just odd lol.

I did think it was odd too haha. Like I said, I’m not privy to the full extent of their philosophy.

 

[Robbinson]

I did think it was odd too haha. Like I said, I’m not privy to the full extent of their philosophy.

A traditional Jew (non believer in Jesus and follower of rabbinic Judaism) would agree with you. Scripture, however, defines an Israelite as a physical descendant (through the father) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob irrespective of belief. A “Jew” today is a member of the tribe of Judah (thus the name “Jew” - “Judah”) or Benjamin (the two surviving tribes that re-emerged in Israel/Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile - the remaining 10 northern tribes disappeared into the Gentile nations as part of the Babylonian exile.

Rabbinic Judaism today acknowledges Jews as descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the mother (though reform Jews recognize through the mother or the father) irrespective of belief (except those who are part of another religion - code name for who believe Jesus is the messiah). Messianic Jews who maintain a Jewish identity would strongly disagree with this definition.

I’m a Jewish believer - but I am part of the Catholic Church and personally am fine with the label Christian, Catholic or Hebrew Catholic and respect that “Jew” as commonly used today refers to Jews who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah (as you and the prior respondent framed that issue).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World:

I’d like to hear comments on this. Is this saying we are to just leave the Jews (and BTW who is a Jew?) alone because they’re already saved by virtue of the the irrevocable covenant God made with their ancestors?

Thanks!
em

Rom9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[firstmode]

Rom9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians said that the promise was made to Abrahams decendent, not decendants. Paul says the promise was made to Christ, who is the descendant of abraham, not made to israel.

What do you think about what I posted from the book of Galations? What exactly do you think Paul is trying to say in those chapters?

 

[firstmode]

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

 

[graceandglory]

Galatians said that the promise was made to Abrahams decendent, not decendants. Paul says the promise was made to Christ, who is the descendant of abraham, not made to israel.

What do you think about what I posted from the book of Galations? What exactly do you think Paul is trying to say in those chapters?

Thanks, Firstmode,

I appreciate your sharing of the passage from St. Paul to the Catholic Church in Galatia.

We have a difference of opinion here. Catholics don’t decide how we are to “think about” scriptures by ourself, without the thinking mind of the Church that is 2,000 yrs old, and was around at the time the letter to the Galatians was written. The Catholic church selected this letter to be included in the Christian New Testament for a purpose. In order to know why the Church selected this letter, we need to ask the CHURCH.

The Church Who selected the scriptures by the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is Who interprets them for us, the members of the Church.

However, we can do our best to “think about” Pope Benedict’s words, and realize that he would never say anything that would contradict any scriptures. So, we #1) Give him the best motivation possible, that he is teaching in accordance with scripture. Given that he is teaching something completely scriptural, let’s try to imagine what he meant by that, so that we can all be in agreement.

I think that Pope Benedict’s quote is not in contradiction with the passage from Galatians because he is speaking of PURE Judaism, as it is supposed to be lived and practiced, not the Judaism that is practiced today, which is more of a cultural connection, but not a spiritual one, just like those people who call themselves Christian, but do not have a personal relationship with the living Christ.

Thank you for sharing this passage. I came here today to get resources on the salvation of Jews. I was teaching my catechism class to seventh graders today and they are most concerned about what our Church teaches about the salvation of the Jews. Jesus is the King of the Jews, and our salvation is from the Jews. We know God is merciful and doesn’t wish for anyone to perish. The Jews are God’s Chosen People, and we are his adopted children.

It was God’s first plan to save the Jews. Only they kept disobeying. The Christian New Testament shows how difficult it is to be saved through the Law, but it is still valid for salvation.

Peace.
gg

p.s. i was married to an a/g p.k.

 

[rinnie]

The following statement is from my son’s 8th grade religion text, Religions of the World:

I’d like to hear comments on this. Is this saying we are to just leave the Jews (and BTW who is a Jew?) alone because they’re already saved by virtue of the the irrevocable covenant God made with their ancestors?

Thanks!
em

Sorry there Elisabeth but that is not what the CCC says. It says that the Jewish faith unlike other non-catholic religions is already a response to Gods’s revelation in the Old Covenant.

What that is saying is that is that we both have in common the O.T. And if they have not yet received the N.T. still have a valid relationship with God.

 

[graceandglory]

Sorry there Elisabeth but that is not what the CCC says. It says that the Jewish faith unlike other non-catholic religions is already a response to Gods’s revelation in the Old Covenant.

What that is saying is that is that we both have in common the O.T. And if they have not yet received the N.T. still have a valid relationship with God.

Actually our Catechism does say that. The Jewish covenant is sufficient for salvation. Provided a Jew can faithfully abide by it.

 

[firstmode]

Actually our Catechism does say that. The Jewish covenant is sufficient for salvation. Provided a Jew can faithfully abide by it.

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

The law cannot provide salvation because it must be perfectly followed and only Jesus perfectly followed it. He was the only one to ever perfectly follow it. I am going to remain faithful to what was taught since the beginning as the apostle John told me to.

1 John 2: *20 But you are not like that, for the Holy One has given you his Spirit,[e] and all of you know the truth. 21 So I am writing to you not because you don’t know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. 22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ.[f] Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.[g] 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

*24 So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will remain in fellowship with the Son and with the Father. 25 And in this fellowship we enjoy the eternal life he promised us.

 

[firstmode]

22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ.[f] Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.[g] 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[firstmode]

23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn’t have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Actually our Catechism does say that. The Jewish covenant is sufficient for salvation. Provided a Jew can faithfully abide by it.

Provided a Jew can faithfully abide by it before the the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached (& the old is replaced by the new Covenant). Rabbinic Judaism is not the exactly same religion of those who practice Judaism in the first century. Rabbinic Judaism was formed after the destruction of the temple and part of it is stating that Jesus Christ is not the Messiah. So it is more like non-Christian religions that it denies Jesus Christ as the Son of God. So without Jesus Christ, modern Judaism alone isn’t sufficient salvation.