Salvation of Unbaptized

[LilyM]

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Where did our Lord go and who did he retrieve before His resurrection: Was it not–those who had died in God’s graces.

We have baptism by desire–baptism by blood. They fall within a persons willful desire and reason.

The same cannot be said for the preborn, infants. Without baptism–they are in original sin.

Saying–we hope in their salvation—is depended on what we mean by “salvation” .

Nothing uncleans enters heaven—so no one with original sin enters heaven.

The preborn and infants–have no personal sin–only original sin. God mercy is in—they are not cast into the Hell of the Dammed.
Limbo reconciles God’s mercy with revealed Truth ( baptism)

Of course nothing that is unclean can enter heaven, nor can anyone who retains Original Sin. But IS Baptism - by water, blood, or desire in a narrow and specific sense - the only means available to God of cleansing us of Original Sin?

Doesn’t the fact that that the Blessed Virgin was cleansed of Original Sin from the moment of conception, without benefit of baptism or anything similar, give us reason to hope otherwise?

And thank you for saying I’m guilty of presumption - merely for expressing a HOPE (not a certainty) that God desires to save all his creatures and in this desire at least doesn’t demand the impossible of them.

 

[Walking_Home]

Of course nothing that is unclean can enter heaven, nor can anyone who retains Original Sin. But IS Baptism - by water, blood, or desire in a narrow and specific sense - the only means available to God of cleansing us of Original Sin?

Doesn’t the fact that that the Blessed Virgin was cleansed of Original Sin from the moment of conception, without benefit of baptism or anything similar, give us reason to hope otherwise?

And thank you for saying I’m guilty of presumption - merely for expressing a HOPE (not a certainty) that God desires to save all his creatures and in this desire at least doesn’t demand the impossible of them.

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Are you applying an attribute unique to the Mother of God to all infants. Are you saying they are being made immaculate.

 

[jmcrae]

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Are you applying an attribute unique to the Mother of God to all infants.

No, she’s not. She’s simply providing an example of one person who did not require baptism for her salvation - which opens up the possibility of others. There are many sincere Catholics who also believe that St. John was made clean from Original Sin when he leapt in the womb of Elizabeth. (This is a pious belief; not de fide.)

Are you saying they are being made immaculate.

She is simply suggesting that, if God could miraculously cleanse one person from sin, or possibly two people, that it is not beyond his ability to do so for others. She is certainly not suggesting that this happens all the time - merely that we need to open our hearts to the possibility that God could, in fact, do that.

Personally, I don’t presume to know what happens to unbaptized babies after death. The Catechism exhorts us to hope for the best, and trust in God’s mercy.

 

[gorman64]

LilyM:

Of course nothing that is unclean can enter heaven, nor can anyone who retains Original Sin. But IS Baptism - by water, blood, or desire in a narrow and specific sense - the only means available to God of cleansing us of Original Sin?

Doesn’t the fact that that the Blessed Virgin was cleansed of Original Sin from the moment of conception, without benefit of baptism or anything similar, give us reason to hope otherwise?

I believe Our Lady was conceived without original sin…not cleansed of original sin.

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.

Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: “Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul’s infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception.”

“O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee !”

 

[Walking_Home]

No, she’s not. She’s simply providing an example of one person who did not require baptism for her salvation - which opens up the possibility of others. There are many sincere Catholics who also believe that St. John was made clean from Original Sin when he leapt in the womb of Elizabeth. (This is a pious belief; not de fide.)

She is simply suggesting that, if God could miraculously cleanse one person from sin, or possibly two people, that it is not beyond his ability to do so for others. She is certainly not suggesting that this happens all the time - merely that we need to open our hearts to the possibility that God could, in fact, do that.

Personally, I don’t presume to know what happens to unbaptized babies after death. The Catechism exhorts us to hope for the best, and trust in God’s mercy.

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Yes—God can do anything–but our Lady was going to give birth to God the Son. Can we say the same to humanity. She was unique from conception—can you or I say the same or our children.

 

[LilyM]

No, she’s not. She’s simply providing an example of one person who did not require baptism for her salvation - which opens up the possibility of others. There are many sincere Catholics who also believe that St. John was made clean from Original Sin when he leapt in the womb of Elizabeth. (This is a pious belief; not de fide.)

She is simply suggesting that, if God could miraculously cleanse one person from sin, or possibly two people, that it is not beyond his ability to do so for others. She is certainly not suggesting that this happens all the time - merely that we need to open our hearts to the possibility that God could, in fact, do that.

Thanks for leaping to my defence there :tiphat: That’s exactly what I was doing - pointing out a past instance of extrasacramental ‘cleansing’ (via preservation) from original sin.

Yes—God can do anything–but our Lady was going to give birth to God the Son. Can we say the same to humanity. She was unique from conception—can you or I say the same or our children.

That’s all I wanted to hear, and that’s as far as my hope extends. So God is not indisputably bound to damn the unbaptised to limbo. And those who say he is are denying the simple fact that he is ALL-POWERFUL!

That’s the only point I wanted to make!!!

It doesn’t change the necessity of baptising children, any more than hoping for Perfect Contrition at the moment of death changes the necessity of us going to confession if we sin mortally.

 

[Walking_Home]

Thanks for leaping to my defence there :tiphat: That’s exactly what I was doing - pointing out a past instance of extrasacramental ‘cleansing’ (via preservation) from original sin.

That’s all I wanted to hear, and that’s as far as my hope extends. So God is not indisputably bound to damn the unbaptised to limbo. And those who say he is are denying the simple fact that he is ALL-POWERFUL!

That’s the only point I wanted to make!!!

It doesn’t change the necessity of baptising children, any more than hoping for Perfect Contrition at the moment of death changes the necessity of us going to confession if we sin mortally.

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So we are back to God making the unbaptized infants “immaculate”. Our Holy Mother becomes----just a drop in a barrel.

 

[LilyM]

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So we are back to God making the unbaptized infants “immaculate”. Our Holy Mother becomes----just a drop in a barrel.

You’re forgetting the minor details that Mary was conceived immaculate *and *remained personally free of even the most minor venial sin throughout her whole long life

The pious belief, mentioned by jmcrae, that John the Baptist was freed of Original Sin in Elizabeth’s womb, doesn’t render Our Lady any less unique. Would a thousand or a billion John the Baptists make Our Lady any less than the most perfec of God’s creatures? Not in the least.

 

[gorman64]

Dear LilyM:

What you are suggesting is indefensible…all men are born infected with original sin…this is de fide. The Blessed Virgin was not…as Ineffabilis Deus states (quoting Trent), and Trent states itself in the dogmatic decree concerning original sin. All men except the Mother of God were and are born with original sin.

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.

The Council of Trent **
Besides, we must note a fact of the greatest importance indeed. Even the Council of Trent itself, when it promulgated the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, following the testimonies of the Sacred Scriptures, of the Holy Fathers and of the renowned Council, decreed and defined that all men are born infected by original sin; nevertheless, it solemnly declared that it had no intention of including the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, in this decree and in the general extension of its definition. Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin**.[12]

[12.] Sess. V, Can. 6; Denz. n. 792. Declarat tamen haec ipsa sancta Synodus, non esse suae intentionis, comprehendere in hoc decreto, ubi de peccato originali agitur, beatam et immaculatam Virginem Mariam Dei genitricem, sed observandas esse constitutiones felicis recordationis Sixti Papae IV, sub poenis in eis constitutionibus contentis, quas innovat.

What you are suggesting is contrary to the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, Council of Trent, Session V. That teaching is de fide.

Yours,

Gorman

 

[LilyM]

Dear LilyM:

What you are suggesting is indefensible…all men are born infected with original sin…this is de fide. The Blessed Virgin was not…as Ineffabilis Deus states (quoting Trent), and Trent states itself in the dogmatic decree concerning original sin. All men except the Mother of God were and are born with original sin.

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.

What you are suggesting is contrary to the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, Council of Trent, Session V. That teaching is de fide.

Yours,

Gorman

So the ancient and venerable pious belief that John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin in the womb of Elizabeth is also in your opinion heretical then?

Look, this thread isn’t about the mechanics of HOW or at what point the unbaptized might possibly be cleansed of original sin. I’m quite willing to accept Mary as a unique case, and tradition about John the Baptist as inaccurate. The fact certainly remains that everyone, even if born with OS, can be cleansed of it.

The issue is whether this can only be done by baptism, or also by extrasacramental means. I maintain we cannot assert otherwise than that it IS possible, as Walking Home has conceded, for God to act outside any of the sacraments if he so chooses, including Baptism.

This is the natural result of our knowledge of God’s omnipotence and mercy, AND evidenced by his willingness to dispense with the formal sacraments in certain cases for those who HAVE attained the age of reason (for example, of sacramental confession in the case of those who evince Perfect Contrition).

God has shown himself unwilling to even be bound by the restrictions of time itself, when it comes to salvation, since He saved the righteous patriarchs of Israel by applying Christ’s redemptive death retroactively to them CENTURIES after their deaths. And, as I have already stated, ‘broke the rules’ in at least the case of Mary by preserving her from Original Sin from the moment of conception.

There are all sorts of means that we are aware of by which people have been and are saved extrasacramentally. Why do we assume that God is bound by the Sacrament of Baptism then???

 

[Walking_Home]

So the ancient and venerable pious belief that John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin in the womb of Elizabeth is also in your opinion heretical then?

Look, this thread isn’t about the mechanics of HOW or at what point the unbaptized might possibly be cleansed of original sin. I’m quite willing to accept Mary as a unique case, and tradition about John the Baptist as inaccurate. The fact certainly remains that everyone, even if born with OS, can be cleansed of it.

The issue is whether this can only be done by baptism, or also by extrasacramental means. I maintain we cannot assert otherwise than that it IS possible, as Walking Home has conceded, for God to act outside any of the sacraments if he so chooses, including Baptism.

This is the natural result of our knowledge of God’s omnipotence and mercy, AND evidenced by his willingness to dispense with the formal sacraments in certain cases for those who HAVE attained the age of reason (for example, of sacramental confession in the case of those who evince Perfect Contrition).

God has shown himself unwilling to even be bound by the restrictions of time itself, when it comes to salvation, since He saved the righteous patriarchs of Israel by applying Christ’s redemptive death retroactively to them CENTURIES after their deaths. And, as I have already stated, ‘broke the rules’ in at least the case of Mary by preserving her from Original Sin from the moment of conception.

There are all sorts of means that we are aware of by which people have been and are saved extrasacramentally. Why do we assume that God is bound by the Sacrament of Baptism then???

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The only fact that we know (God told us this)–is the need for baptism. Anything outside of this is conjecture. God can do anything—but he did not tell us-- he was going to do it.

 

[TNT]

Latest on the poll:
58% heretic?
41% catholic.

BTW:
Limbo is nothing but a level of HELL. I hope no one is arguing that it is somewhere outside of hell. If that were the point, then NO there is no Limbo as a third place (Pelagian Heresy component)in eternity.

 

[gorman64]

So the ancient and venerable pious belief that John the Baptist was cleansed of original sin in the womb of Elizabeth is also in your opinion heretical then?

Look, this thread isn’t about the mechanics of HOW or at what point the unbaptized might possibly be cleansed of original sin. I’m quite willing to accept Mary as a unique case, and tradition about John the Baptist as inaccurate. The fact certainly remains that everyone, even if born with OS, can be cleansed of it.

The issue is whether this can only be done by baptism, or also by extrasacramental means. I maintain we cannot assert otherwise than that it IS possible, as Walking Home has conceded, for God to act outside any of the sacraments if he so chooses, including Baptism.

This is the natural result of our knowledge of God’s omnipotence and mercy, AND evidenced by his willingness to dispense with the formal sacraments in certain cases for those who HAVE attained the age of reason (for example, of sacramental confession in the case of those who evince Perfect Contrition).

God has shown himself unwilling to even be bound by the restrictions of time itself, when it comes to salvation, since He saved the righteous patriarchs of Israel by applying Christ’s redemptive death retroactively to them CENTURIES after their deaths. And, as I have already stated, ‘broke the rules’ in at least the case of Mary by preserving her from Original Sin from the moment of conception.

There are all sorts of means that we are aware of by which people have been and are saved extrasacramentally. Why do we assume that God is bound by the Sacrament of Baptism then???

Dear LilyM:

I am quite pleased to see that you have not dismissed the clear and authoritative teaching of the Council of Trent.

The Church teaches us what means will suffice. Baptism (the laver of regeneration) or the desire thereof. Water, Blood, or Desire. Read the Sixth Session of Trent on justification.

The Church teaches us those are the ways that man can be regenerated. There are no others. Why can’t you just hear the Church and trust Her?

Yours,

Gorman

 

[Walking_Home]

Latest on the poll:
58% heretic?
41% catholic.

BTW:
Limbo is nothing but a level of HELL. I hope no one is arguing that it is somewhere outside of hell. If that were the point, then NO there is no Limbo as a third place (Pelagian Heresy component)in eternity.

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Thanks for this—When I refer to limbo—it is not the level of the damned (Hell of the damned).

 

[LilyM]

Dear LilyM:

I am quite pleased to see that you have not dismissed the clear and authoritative teaching of the Council of Trent.

The Church teaches us what means will suffice. Baptism (the laver of regeneration) or the desire thereof. Water, Blood, or Desire. Read the Sixth Session of Trent on justification.

The Church teaches us those are the ways that man can be regenerated. There are no others. Why can’t you just hear the Church and trust Her?

Yours,

Gorman

Oh I both hear and trust the Church. Just not your interpretation of Her teachings which is nothing short of a denial of both the mercy and omnipotence of God.

Trent told us the means, sure, it emphatically didn’t state that they were also binding on those who were totally unaware of them, or through no fault of their own lacked opportunity to take advantage of them. Certainly the sacraments of the Eucharist and Confession aren’t so binding. And Trent didn’t define ‘baptism of desire’ either.

And why can’t YOU hear and trust when the Church tells us to hope in God’s mercy and desire for the salvation of all - as she does in the Catechism, which is also a valid and authoritative exercise of the Magisterium and thus binding on us?

 

[Walking_Home]

Oh I both hear and trust the Church. Just not your interpretation of Her teachings which is nothing short of a denial of the omnipotence of God.

Trent told us the means, sure, it just didn’t state that they were also binding on those who were totally unaware of them, or through no fault of their own lacked opportunity to take advantage of them. Certainly the sacraments of the Eucharist and Confession aren’t so binding. And Trent didn’t define ‘baptism of desire’ either.

And why can’t YOU trust in God’s mercy in regard to the salvation of the unbaptised, as the Church herself bids us do in the Catechism, which is also an authoritative exercise of the Magisterium? JP2 himself declared as much.

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So then–because God is merciful—He is giving to the unbaptized --what He gave to the Mother of God—the removal of original sin.

 

[LilyM]

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So then–because God is merciful—He is giving to the unbaptized --what He gave to the Mother of God—the removal of original sin.

We can hope that he removes their Original Sin, sure. Note I have never said it’s a sure thing, or that he would use the same means for them as for Mary. And if he does, what of it? He gave to Elijah and Enoch, and possibly Moses, the same blessing of bodily Assumption that he did to Mary. Doesn’t make her any less the Mother of God and unique by virtue of being so.

After all, he gives the same remission of Original Sin that he gave to Mary to each of us in baptism, and he gave the same to the righteous who lived before the time of Christ.

Different means and at different points in time in different cases

 

[Walking_Home]

He gives the same to us in baptism, and he gave the same to the righteous who lived before the time of Christ - just by different means and at different points in time in different cases

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You are correct—He gives the same to us in baptism–since we are now under the new covenant. We need baptism—our Holy Mother did not.

 

[LilyM]

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You are correct—He gives the same to us in baptism–since we are now under the new covenant. We need baptism—our Holy Mother did not.

And possibly the invincibly ignorant and/or unbaptised babies don’t either - in the same manner that some don’t need sacramental confession if they evince perfect contrition for their sins at the point of death.

Or possibly they are in some way unknown to us counted as being baptised by desire or baptised by blood even (as Mother Angelica says of aborted babies)

 

[Walking_Home]

And possibly the invincibly ignorant and/or unbaptised babies don’t either - in the same manner that some don’t need sacramental confession if they evince perfect contrition for their sins at the point of death.

Or possibly they are in some way unknown to us counted as being baptised by desire or baptised by blood even (as Mother Angelica says of aborted babies)

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All is conjecture–outside of what our Lord has revealed to us.