Salvation outside Christianity...?

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reen12:
No original sin. No woundedness
to be saved from. No deprivation of sanctfying grace, as
a result of this woundedness.
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Are you a Catholic?
 
I have a question.

WHO are considered the invincibly ignorant? Whenever I ask questions about who is saved a lot of people tell me that the ‘invincibly ignorant’ are saved. When I ask them who the ‘invincibly ignorant’ are, the answers range from a few primitive tribes in S.America to the Muslim neighbour next door who is invincibly ignorant because I haven’t preached to him. One person told me that anyone who even heard the word Jesus would be damned if he didn’t convert while some else tried to convince me that an atheist who read a bible and tried to follow its moral principles while rejecting Christ would be in invincible ignorance due to his mindset which prevents him from seeing God :confused: :rolleyes: When I argued I was informed that when I entered heaven I would be put in a closed box for my narrowmindedness 😃
 
The Iambic Pen:
Just earlier today, one of my friends (one of those intellectual atheist types) told me I would probably have been a Muslim if I had been born in Iraq. I couldn’t deny that this was a possibility. He then asked me if I thought all of the Muslims were going to Hell. Well, I had to say no for the simple reason that I believe God is just, and He isn’t going to hold people accountable for something they’ve never heard. So, then he countered by asking if all these guys who set off car bombs and such are getting a free pass to Heaven. Well, obviously I didn’t believe that. I tried to explain the whole concept of people being required to respond to what God gives them. For some, they may simply have to determine from nature that God exists, that there is a difference between good and evil, and that good should be done instead of evil. For others, they may have to respond to the whole Gospel message. After all, “to those who are given much, much will be expected.”
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Iambic Pen, How can suicide bombers differenciate between good and evil if the quran endorses the killing of the ‘infidels’?They believe they are doing God’s will and support it from the quran. They grow up in a religiouly conservative home, go to the masjid and the madrassa and hear sermons condemning the zionists and the infidels(not to forget the Great Satan) and become indoctrinated in the radical philosophy. Suicide bombing is just the final(and to them most logical) step.
 
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AJV:
WHO are considered the invincibly ignorant?
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Only God knows who is invincibly ignorant and who is vincibly ignorant.INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of knowledge, either of fact of law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time and talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable.

(Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

VINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of culpable knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. It is culpable ignorance because it could be cleared up if the person used sufficient diligence.

One is said to be simply (but culpably) ignorant if one fails to make enough effort to learn what should be known; guilt then depends on one’s lack of effort to clear up the ignorance.

That person is crassly ignorant when the lack of knowledge is not directly willed but due to neglect or laziness; as a result the guilt is somewhat lessened, but in grave matters a person would still be gravely responsible.

A person has affected ignorance when one deliberately fosters it in order to not be inhibited in what one wants to do; such ignorance is gravely wrong when it concerns serious matters.

(Eytm. Latin vincibilis, easily overcome; ignorantia, want of knowledge or information.)

Pocket Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J
Whenever I ask questions about who is saved a lot of people tell me that the ‘invincibly ignorant’ are saved.
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It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Pope Pius IX, Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863

Pope PiusIX did not say that ALL those who are living in invincible ignorance will be saved. Evil men that are invincibly ignorant of “our most holy religion” will also be damned. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it …
Romans 2:11-12
 
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reen12:
Matt16_18,

quote: Matt16_18

This is your response? 🙂

reen12
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This is my response:**Catechism of the Catholic Church

389** The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

What you are preaching is heresy.
 
reen12:
Human reason, a gift of God, leads him to grasp that
the God he doesn’t believe in cannot be God, by definition,
if He would not “save” those who do His will, yet know Him not.
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Where would be Justice and Mercy in that?
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And I would be dishonest if I didn’t admit that I think about this all of the time. My belief (to use a Protestant term…) is that since God is just and merciful, nothing He does is going to be contrary to that. The very part of my nature that identifies what is just and merciful comes from God. So, I must believe that the same God who put knowledge of right and wrong in my heart, will do what is right in regard to all people. It all comes down to trusting that the God who created the entire universe just might know what He is doing. Of course, sometimes this is easier said than done…

amateurthomist:
If God is not obligated to save anyone, then he is certainly not obligated to save everyone.
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Well, not to be difficult, but this brings to mind an analogy. The doctrine of Original Sin, plus the apparent requirement of Christian conversion for salvation, makes me think of the following: At birth everyone starts at the top of a steep hill in a wagon. At the bottom of the hill is a lake of fire. At the beginning of our lives, we are given a push to get us going down the hill. All of the wagons go tearing down the hill. Without the direct intervention of God, every wagon will end up in the lake of fire. God saves a few (a minority, really) of the wagons, but most go into the fire. Those who are saved go on to a place of paradise where they live with God forever, and those who fall into the lake suffer pain forever (I guess this is where the analogy crosses into reality). Now, if this is the way God’s plan really works, I fail to see it as being either just or merciful. Basically, it sounds like people are condemned not by any action of their own, but rather by the inaction of God on their behalf (or rather by the direct action of God which put them at the top of the hill in the wagon and then pushed them downhill in the first place, i.e. created them with original sin). It seems to me that to believe in this doctrine as outlined in this analogy is to see God as evil. Well, obviously this is something I cannot do. God is clearly good, and everything good comes from Him. So, the analogy must somehow be innacurate. I guess it all comes down to trust. To build upon what I said in my statement to reen12 above, I would not even know what justice and mercy were if God had not put that knowledge in my heart. Since the system described above is obviously unjust and merciless, I must conclude that there is something more to God’s plan that I am not seeing or that has not been revealed to me. Anyway, I’m not trying to say anything scandalous or false. This is just something I think about a lot, and I have been praying that God would show me what is true. Until then, I must continue to trust Him.

I should pause this post right now by saying I truly appreciate the posts by Matt16_18 and Nan S, which clearly show that Catholic doctrine supports the possibility that the unreached can still be saved. Unfortunately, Protestant “doctrine” (I use quotes not to mock, but rather to emphasize that there are really no set doctrines that can be said to apply to all Protestants) usually ends up stating something like my analogy above, or making some noncommital statement about “God knowing the heart” of those who have never heard.

continued…
 
…continued from previous post…
Genesis315:
Here’s a decent read on the subject. It was written by our pope back when he was prefect for the CDF:
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I’m in the midst of reading it! Thanks!

AJV:
Iambic Pen, How can suicide bombers differenciate between good and evil if the quran endorses the killing of the ‘infidels’?They believe they are doing God’s will and support it from the quran. They grow up in a religiouly conservative home, go to the masjid and the madrassa and hear sermons condemning the zionists and the infidels(not to forget the Great Satan) and become indoctrinated in the radical philosophy. Suicide bombing is just the final(and to them most logical) step.
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What you say is certainly true. I think, then, that it would be wrong to presume that even suicide bombers can be known to be in Hell. However, when one encounters bombers blowing up dozens of children and other civilians to kill one soldier, one has to wonder if there isn’t something in the conscience of all people that says such an action is wrong. If moral precepts are indeed “graven by God upon the hearts of all men,” then I don’t see how any suicide bomber, when standing before God, could reasonably claim he didn’t know he was doing wrong. Still, it is hard to know, and I pray for even the suicide bombers.

When I look at all of the billions of people who have ever lived, I cannot help but notice that most of them never heard the Gospel of Christ. There were several reasons for this: they lived and died before the sacrifice of Christ even happened, they lived and died before the message of Christ reached their region of the world, they were prevented from hearing the message by the ruling authorities of their area, or they died before they were old enough the hear the message or even to be baptized. Perhaps I’m relying too much on human reason here, but I cannot believe that all of those people are condemned. Of course, the Gospels themselves refer to Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus. Obviously they didn’t go to Hell.

Anyway, there is much I don’t know about life and God and the future, and I know that as a human, I will never know all things. So, I must continue to trust God and serve Him all my days. He will reveal all things to me in His time. Thanks for all the info! 🙂

God Bless!
 
The Iambic Pen:
The very part of my nature that identifies what is just and merciful comes from God. So, I must believe that the same God who put knowledge of right and wrong in my heart, will do what is right in regard to all people.
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Amen! 👍
At birth everyone starts at the top of a steep hill in a wagon. At the bottom of the hill is a lake of fire. At the beginning of our lives, we are given a push to get us going down the hill. All of the wagons go tearing down the hill. Without the direct intervention of God, every wagon will end up in the lake of fire.
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Who gave us the push towards hell? Adam and Eve gave us the push, because they were willfully disobedient to God. It was Adam and Eve that sent humanity careening on the path towards the lake of fire, not God.

God knows that humanity is headed for disaster, and he sent his beloved Son into the world to stop the wagons by lying down in front of the wagons. Will all be saved from the lake of fire? No, because some people keep steering their wagons around the Son of God …
 
So… One might say that Hitler and Stalin who suffered from meglomania (mental disability) could be in heaven. The suicide bombers and the 9/11 guys may get there too. The good St. Thomas taught that ones conscience, even if malformed, was to be obeyed. Guess it hinges on what God might see as invincible ignorance, I know some very intelligent people who can in some ways be as ignorant as a post. It is interesting to me that two words are used here, the adverb invincible and the noun ignorance. Not having both apply to a given situation would leave lots of wiggle room. It is good that it is not up to us to decide the fate of anyone even ourselves. Thank you Lord for your mercy endures forever.
 
Matt16_18,

quote: Matt16_18
This is my response: Catechism of the Catholic Church
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389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
What you are preaching is heresy.
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No, the positions I hold would be characterized as
apostasy.

You know, the way Saul’s former co-religionists
characterized his view of their faith as apostasy.
It was further noted, by same, that Saul’s claim
that Jesus was God, constituted blasphemy.

Depends on who’s employing the terms.

reen12:tiphat:
 
Hello, Iambic Pen,
quote: Iambic Pen

Quote:
Human reason, a gift of God, leads him to grasp that
the God he doesn’t believe in cannot be God, by definition,
if He would not “save” those who do His will, yet know Him not.

Where would be Justice and Mercy in that?
And I would be dishonest if I didn’t admit that I think about this all of the time. My belief (to use a Protestant term…) is that since God is just and merciful, nothing He does is going to be contrary to that. The very part of my nature that identifies what is just and merciful comes from God. So, I must believe that the same God who put knowledge of right and wrong in my heart, will do what is right in regard to all people. It all comes down to trusting that the God who created the entire universe just might know what He is doing. Of course, sometimes this is easier said than done…
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But, you see, my heart tells me that if a religon cannot
state with certainty that God accepts the souls of
unbaptized babies, then that religion is deficient in
some critical way.

If you look at the Catechism [CCC], #1257, the admission
is made that the Church cannot state with certainty…

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm

The thelogical *reason *it cannot state that with certainty,
is the doctrine of original sin and the necessity of
baptism to restore sanctifying grace, forfeited by
the “sin of Adam.”

No such concept of original sin exists in the parent faith of
Christianity, Judaism.

I’ll look for the CCC number that states that any
challenge to the concept of original sin challenges
the salvific role of the Savior.
Those are the “materials” out of which the “box” is made:

i.e., original sin= estrangement from God,
need for a Savior to restore man from his
estranged condition

Corollary: a baby who does not survive to choose a
righteous life [and so be covered by
“baptism of desire” etc.] cannot be
said- with certainty- to see God in the Face.

The Church cannot back off of the “no certainty” position,
without calling into doubt it’s doctrine of original sin,
via St. Paul, and, ultimately, the whole theological
edifice that describes the meaning of Christ’s life…
salvific, with regard to Original Sin.

Best,
reen12
 
quote:** reen12**
I’ll look for the CCC number that states that any
challenge to the concept of original sin challenges
the salvific role of the Savior.
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See the CCC, #389.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/389.htm

I have failed to note that I think that the theology of
Catholicism is perfectly gorgeous, [a non-technical
term for “elegant”], when the initial propositions are
in place.

The real Achilles heel, is the attempt to maintain,
in the face of the “reasonable person” standard,
that the fate of unbaptized babies cannot be stated
with certainty.

To me, it fails the “reasonable person” standard.

reen12
 
The Iambic Pen:
So, in hopeful anticipation of further talks on matters of a religious nature, I was hoping some of you could help me answer his questions. Namely, what does happen to those who never hear the Gospel? It doesn’t seem right that they should be sent to Hell for their ignorance, but if their ignorance gives them a free pass to Heaven, then efforts at evangelism would be wrong. Of course, Jesus clearly tells us to “go into all the world and make disciples…” so we know we are supposed to evangelize. Obviously, our good works don’t “earn” us a place in Heaven, and even as a Protestant (for now…), I know Catholics don’t believe that. So, I guess the question is, on what basis are the unsaved, unreached people of the world judged? I believe with all my heart that God is just and merciful, so I know He must have some plan for the billions of people throughout history who have never heard the Gospel.
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Maybe it’s a shame that The Word of God ever had to use words?

The movie Mulholland Drive is the silent face of God/Christ that is at the end and center of all thought. The interior life is not that different from man to man. Mulholland Drive shows the essential interior life of every man.

I would even go so far as to say that this movie was ‘with God’ before the creation of the world; it was the ‘production’, the history of the world, that he chose to release in the theater of creation.
 
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Matt16_18:
The Church isn’t as wishy-washy as what you are making her out to be. Please read the quote from Pope Pius IX. There is no doubt about it, God offers saving grace to those who are living in invincible ignorance – “[God] in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativa) sufficient grace to achieve salvation. (Sent. certa.)

Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

On the contrary, we know for a fact that God has saved men that never possessed an explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ while they were living on earth. Moses and all the rest of the OT Saints never had explicit faith in Jesus while they were alive on earth. All the righteous OT saints came to an explicit knowledge of Jesus after they died. It is Feeneyite heresy to assert that the Church teaches that this does not happen to the righteous men who die in invincible ignorance in the era of the New Covenant.
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I never said that God didn’t give grace to persons apart from explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ. I only said that (outside of certain persons in the Old Testament) we do not have any explicit revelation indicating to which person’s God gives such grace.
 
In my humble opinion “invincible ignorance” is no more an excuse. Do this Moslems live in another planet? How is it possible nowadays to say that Moslems (in fact any people) never heard about Christ or the Catholic Church or the Pope? They don’t have a TV set?
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Ok first of all, some don’t have running water, much less televisions and international cable. Not to mention countless other people untouched by civilized society (bushmen, african tribesmen, rainforest tribes etc) I was curious about this same issue earlier today during a discussion about God being all knowing. If he knows all, and still makes someone born outside of the grip of catholicism or christianity, he is setting them up to go to hell. More than half the planet is going to hell by God’s design you think?If you weren’t born into this culture, you would have the same values and beliefs of what ever culture that you were born into, be it muslim, buddhist, taoist, whatever.
Iambic Pen, How can suicide bombers differenciate between good and evil if the quran endorses the killing of the ‘infidels’?They believe they are doing God’s will and support it from the quran.
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The same was true of christians burning witches and heretics…thought they were doing the lords work and such. Whatever stopped your church from doing it, should stop those pesky muslims 🙂
But, you see, my heart tells me that if a religon cannot
state with certainty that God accepts the souls of
unbaptized babies, then that religion is deficient in
some critical way.
Click to expand...
If you look at the Catechism [CCC], #1257, the admission
is made that the Church cannot state with certainty…
Click to expand...
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm
Click to expand...
The thelogical *reason *it cannot state that with certainty,
is the doctrine of original sin and the necessity of
baptism to restore sanctifying grace, forfeited by
the “sin of Adam.”
Click to expand...
No such concept of original sin exists in the parent faith of
Christianity, Judaism.
Click to expand...
I’ll look for the CCC number that states that any
challenge to the concept of original sin challenges
the salvific role of the Savior.
Click to expand...
So your all merciful God sends babies to hell? I seem to recall something about a child can no longer be held responsible for his father’s debt…which works on two levels here. 1) the baby should not be held accountable for his parents “ignorance” unless an all knowing God just wanted to send a baby to hell. 2) the original sin was a curse for the line of Adam, but if you can no longer inherit debt, then you are free from original sin.q
 
Dear Wormwood,

You quote me, and then go on to state:

quote: Wormwood
So your all merciful God sends babies to hell? I seem to recall something about a child can no longer be held responsible for his father’s debt…which works on two levels here. 1) the baby should not be held accountable for his parents “ignorance” unless an all knowing God just wanted to send a baby to hell. 2) the original sin was a curse for the line of Adam, but if you can no longer inherit debt, then you are free from original sin.q
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The fact is, I raised the same point:

quote: Wormwood
…the baby should not be held accountable for his parents “ignorance”…
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in…1958. 😃 So, in my case, you’re preaching to the choir.👍
cf, also, post #7 in this thread.]

I keep saying, in various threads, that the concept of
original sin does not exist in the parent faith of Christianity,
Judaism.
The question, to my knowledge, doesn’t even arise.

quote: Wormwood
So your all merciful God sends babies to hell?
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Since the above quote appears, after you quote part of one
of my posts, I can assure you, the God I worship, alongside
Israel, does not “…send babies to hell.”

If you take the time to consult the Catechism of the Catholic
Church, you will discover that, despite the theological “box”
that I contend exists, the Church entrusts these children
to the mercy of God.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm

So I fear that rejecting God, or the existence of God,
based on Christianity’s view of “unbaptized babies”,
is- to borrow a phrase from a play by Robert Bolt -
“…a horse that won’t run, Master Secretary.” :tiphat:

quote: Wormwood
I was curious about this same issue earlier today during a discussion about God being all knowing. If he knows all, and still makes someone born outside of the grip of catholicism or christianity, he is setting them up to go to hell.
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I have raised the same point, in terms of a form of “predestination” [again, see post #11]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also addresses
that issue. *

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm
#1260

Best wishes,

reen12*
 
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