'Salvation outside of the Church' Revisited

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In this respect, there are both “inclusive” Magisterium texts prior to Vatican II and seemingly restrictive or “exclusivist”-sounding ones. This is important to note, since if these inclusivist elements existed prior to Vatican II, and indeed as far back as the Early Church Fathers, then this in itself mitigates the notion. It would lead us to conclude only one thing: The Church started out largely inclusive in terms of salvation and then during the Middle Ages for a period went rabidly exclusivist before become inclusivist once more in the mid-20th century.

It is important to be aware of both of these “currents”, so to speak, so that one does not simply come up with the idea that the Church has had a role reversal.
Dear Vouthan,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. May I just thank you for your very detailed and informative batch of dispatches, which I think have articulately and correctly expressed the teaching of the Church on this oft debated topic.

That was an excellent point, my dear friend, about there being both inclusivist and exclusivist magisterium texts prior to the Second Vatican Council. This at least demonstrates that our Church did not suddenly get all submerged in ecumenical politeness at VII and change its fundamental dogma accordingly. It is important that non-Catholics understand that VII did not change the Church’s definition of EENS, indeed it could not do this because that is irreformable dogma which is not subject to change.

The doctrinal intention of the Council fathers was merely to affirm that, by the criterion of evangelical and Catholic truth, there are elements of truth and holiness in religions outside the Judaeo-Christian tradition as well. The anchor-hold in Sacred Tradition for this is in the early Apologist St. Justin’s notion of the ‘seeds of the word’ scattered through paganism, a notion tacitly accepted by the consensus of the Church Fathers in their careful use of Greco-Roman philosphy, and underscored in the VII Council Decree on Missions when it speaks of a ‘secret presence of God’ in whatever ‘truth and grace are to be found among the nations’ (Ad Gentes 9). Moreover, if, de facto, some aspect of the teaching or the practice of a non-Christian religion is consonant with the doctrine of the Church respecting faith and morals, then there is no logical ground for denying such a fact. Essentially, VII was saying let us look at the good and true things that we hold in common with the world’s religion’s and let us acknowledge them and not deny them; let us look for points of contact rather than for points controversy and disagreement. It was surely about adopting a more concilliatory and inclusivist tone than had hitherto been the norm, though not entirely, as you brought to our notice, dear brother.

It is quite intresting that the official teaching of the Church coincided with the work of Karl Rahner, an official adivser at VII, who held that God’s saving grace is so powerfully seeking men that those who have not, as yet, had exposure to the Gospel message are ‘allowed’ to find in their own religion “…a positive means of gaining a right relationship to God and thus attaining salvation, a means which is therefore positively included in God’s plan of salvation” (Theological Investigations, Darton, Longman and Todd, London, Vol. V, pp. 121,125). Now as some here will be aware, Mr. Rahner controversially regards sincere non-Christians as ‘anonymous Christians’, in virtue of the grace of Christ which they received and unwittingly responded to in their respective religions. As can be seen from the phraseology used by Mr. Rahner, much of what he said is not wholly disimilar to what is said in the official teaching of the Second Vatican Council.

Our Church surely is doing no more than offering a charitable hope as regards the salvability of sincere and earnest non-Christians who, “through no fault of their own”, have never heard the Gospel or claims of the Church, owing to the fact that they have, alas, been bred in ignorance and error from their very earliest days. Moreover, even if they have heard (e.g. via the interweb) they very often view the Gospel through the distorted lens of deep seated prejudice and misunderstanding. These and other disadvantaged men may not necessarily be excluded from the benefit of Christ’s Atonement. This charitable hope sees beyond a conscious acceptance of the Gospel to an acknowledgement of the wideness of God’s mercy.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Hi Anna, Sorry it was VD and I promised my husband after my last repsonse to you, I would stay off the internet. So I was good.😃

Back to your questions though.

Okay Salvation only comes from the CC. Lets start there for one second. that teaching began in Eph. 4:5 It came from Christ himself… . . .
Also Anna where was it ever said that if are united to Christ in someway that we will not fall into false teachings or fall away from the Church, or have to all see eye to eye on every single teachng to have a tie to Christ… . .
Rinnie,
I still don’t see a clear explanation of your statement, **“But what people do not understand this teaching was directly for the people in the Church.” **

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, was very specific. He identified pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics as existing outside the Catholic Church; and he clearly stated they cannot share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

As I said before, "If all Christians were united and believed the same thing; there would be no one to fall under the label of “schismatics” (response to your post quoted below.)
. . .The reason this gets out of hand, is because we have to remember back in the day, all Christians were united together in One Church. So if you were a Christian back then, you were all taught the same thing. You saw the true teaching, and understood it more clearly. . .
Peace,
Anna
 
Gary,
I always appreciate your posts. 🙂 We’ve discussed EENS on other threads.

I understand the CC’s Ecumenical efforts differ vastly from centuries past. That is very obvious.

What is less obvious, to me anyway, is the way in which the Ecumenical effort is separated from EENS. The idea of providing "information to others that their faith is really a faith in the Catholic Church, but not a full faith. . . " doesn’t seem to explain why those labeled “schismatics” were considered, in centuries past, to be outside the CC and thus destined for Hell. Nor does it explain the necessity of one being under the authority of the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved.

If it were plainly obvious that NNES has not changed, and that the confusion is merely over a matter of change in ecumenical efforts; there would not have been “breakaway” Catholics, such as Traditionalists, who believe Vatican II did change the teachings of the CC.

The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, founded in 1949 by Father Leonard Feeney, certainly cannot reconcile past teachings of NNES, and statements by previous Popes and Church Fathers, with Vatican II. Here are quotes from their website:

This just doesn’t make sense to me. 🤷

Anna
Dear Anna Scott,
Hello again.
 
Now Anna, lets look at this teaching again, and see what your answer is?

Can Pgans, Jews, Heretics have a share in eternal life without being tied to Christ today?

Did the teaching change? Did the Pope mislead us in telling us that if we do not have some communion with Christ, whatever it may be, we can have eternal life without him?

Many Popes take these teaching and through the years define them much clearer then others.

But the question is still the same is there Salvation outside of the CC or aka Jesus Christ?

The answer is NO, can’t be. If you are saved and want eternal life, you must be united to him someway. Maybe it is not obvious to you how people are not tied to him, heck it proablly isn’t even obvious to them sometimes.

But we have one GOD. Right there if you believe in the One God creator of heaven earth you are tied to Jesus Christ in the Trinity.😃 Why? Simply because you cannot take Christ out of God anymore then you can take God out of Christ!😃
 
Anna Scott;8968963:
Oh no Anna, how can that be? How about the people everday who break away from the Church.

Are you going to blame Vatican II for people who get divorced and cannot remarry in the Church. So they leave.

Are you going to blame VII for people who refuse to accept no brith control. abortion.

Look at who implenented Vll. Someone who is soon to be a Saint!! :eek::tiphat:

People need to chill out, and let VII play out, We aren’t nearly done here yet! We have only just begun actually!
Amen 👍
 
Rinnie,
I still don’t see a clear explanation of your statement, **“But what people do not understand this teaching was directly for the people in the Church.” **

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, was very specific. He identified pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics as existing outside the Catholic Church; and he clearly stated they cannot share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

As I said before, "If all Christians were united and believed the same thing; there would be no one to fall under the label of “schismatics” (response to your post quoted below.)

Peace,
Anna
Because what I was talking about is there is no Salvation outside of the CC! People did not realize when that was said in the beginning Christians knew Christ and his Church were ONE! Its the wording Catholic Church instead of Jesus Christ.

That is what I was talking about. Years ago it was known that CC meant Jesus Christ. I thought I made that clear. I guess I failed:sad_yes: My Bad!

My Mother in law said to my Dad oneday when that was said, she said if I do not go to the Catholic Church you Pope said I am going to hell!

Papa laughed and said, NO, that teaching CC means Jesus Christ, She saw the CC as the Church here apart from the Protestant Church, not as the context it was given. Do you get me now!😃
 
Anna I have been in the Pastoral Council for about 4 years now.

You have NO idea what has happened in my Church.

People have bucked us every single step of the way. They don’t want change, everythings fine the way it is.

But now they are comming up to me, HUGGING Me, telling me the Church has changed so much, we are so much Warmer now.

15 years ago when I started there my husband has a BALD head, shaves it, and rides a motorcycle. He was a biker dude, and I was the biker babe, I swear the first time they saw us, the one women was HOLDING HER PURSE!😃

Now we are all a Close family. Somehow VII is making our Church WARM again.

The Pope said open up the windows and let some fresh air in.

When Father picked my husband and I, We were like are you KIDDING ME! We know nothing about this.

Well we have come a LONG way, and have a long way to go. But so far is has ended up SO SO POSITIVE!
 
Dear A Gift,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your contribution above.

As a Catholic I venerate Sacred Scripture as God’s word written and agree that it is through the saving merits of Christ’s Passion that men are saved and reconciled to God. The bible, being the word of God, contains the truth of the Gospel accepted by us Christians, without any reservation. However the truths of our most holy religion must needs be elucidated and *defended *to those who are uncommitted, unconverted and, perhaps, not a little sceptical concerning the truths of Christianity. Now that is where, my dear friend, apologetics comes into play, especially since we may be dealing with men who do not accept the authority of the bible as axiomatic.

Christians should familiarise themselves with the entire network of argument by which their faith is defended. The age in which our lot is cast is, as I am sure you are aware, jolly hostile to Christ and His Church. We have a duty, therefore, to master the proofs set forth in apologetics, so that we may have a fuller vision of the reasonableness of our faith and the enormous strength of its defences, and of the weakness of the objections advanced against it. It is surely our duty to eliminate temptation from our path and to fortify ourselves against the spirit of infidelity that infects the very air that we must daily breathe. We must seek to aquire sufficient enlightenment to enable us to answer the questions that may be addressed us by the honest inquirer. There is actually biblical precedent for such apologetics, for the exhortation of St. Peter to the early Christians is just as applicable to us as it was to them: “be prepared to make a defence to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you” (I Pet. 3: 15). Besides bringing the reward of a job well done, the study of apologetics is in iteself a most valuable mental discipline, for it stimulates and develops our reasoning powers by setting them to work at problems of immense importance and of unfailing interest. The present thread, I think, exemplifies this, inasmuch as we Catholics are being called upon to defend our Church’s previous and present teaching, showing that there are no inconsistent contradictions.

You could say, dear friend, that apologetics is essentially about giving reasons for our faith and showing unbelievers that they are worthy of their acceptance. As long as men have heads to think they will always want reasons. It is my deep conviction that today’s generation of Christians need apologetics more, not less, than previous generations because their religion is constantly challenged by the godless secular culture, covertly as well as overtly, and thus they must needs be able to unmask and refute the hidden premises of the covert attacks as well as to defend their faith against the overt attacks.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
Thanks for the warm greeting.

As I said; we agree to disagree concerning apologetics. God can defend His own word by the power of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Gospel. Apart from those two things, no man will come to the knowledge of the truth, which as you know in our society has become the (lie) of relativism.

Consider the words of God written through the Holy Spirit in Romans 10: "13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

I have never seen a person converted based on human logic, but only by the hearing of the Gospel resulting in a transformed life. Apologetics has never transformed a life, but has won & lost battles of the mind or in most cases people just “agree to disagree”. One can feed on one’s emotions and get them to act, especially people that are seeking “an experience” as opposed to the Savior Himself.
 
As to St Paul…

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore Brothers, stand firm, hold fast to the TRADITIONS you have received from us either either by WORD or LETTER!

That Tradition is the Church which went from; Jesus to the Apostles to the Church and THEN to the Bible.

Thus Sacred Tradition is the Church.

If I take the Bible away from you and give you a pen and paper, then ask you to write down what you actually believe about Jesus Christ/Bible. What in “fact” you will see unfold before your eyes… is Tradition, Creeds, and Doctrine thus affirming what you do-not believe, but yet only in “YOUR OWN” interpretation!. There is no such thing as just Bible. Bible and you become not Gods will, but your will as you interpret Gods will, you then assume what Gods will is, with no check and balance or foundation in Historical evidence. Or at least to the limited degree of ones own mind. Be it yours or mine.

“Photobucket” would be the quick answer to your second question. 😉

Peace
With all due respect; that is a poor interpretation as Paul is merely stating the message of the Gospel wether you hear it directly from Paul or in writing from Paul; that couldn’t be more clear. As for the rest of the; that would be an opinion for the verse speaks clearly for itself. Paul can’t be at all places at all times as the trinity can and is. By the way, the OT is part of the bible so i hope you see the obvious problem with your response - i say that with respect.

God bless and thanks.
 
The title of this is “Salvation outside the Church”; that doesn’t make any sense to me since the ones who are saved are the church and each member of the church is a saint; therefore there is no such thing as salvation outside of the church which is built by the Holy Trinity. Regardless of religious affiliation; you are either saved by God or you are not and if you are, then you are His slave. The manifestation of salvation is a transformed life in Christ Jesus, which is written all over the pages of scripture; hidden in the OT to some degree and obvious in the NT.

Blessings all from God the Father and the Lord Jesus.
 
Because what I was talking about is there is no Salvation outside of the CC! People did not realize when that was said in the beginning Christians knew Christ and his Church were ONE! Its the wording Catholic Church instead of Jesus Christ.

That is what I was talking about. Years ago it was known that CC meant Jesus Christ. I thought I made that clear. I guess I failed:sad_yes: My Bad!. . .
Rinnie,

You still are not answering. See post 62.

The issue is:
Rinnie,
I still don’t see a clear explanation of your statement, **“But what people do not understand this teaching was directly for the people in the Church.” **

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, was very specific. He identified pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics as existing outside the Catholic Church; and he clearly stated they cannot share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

As I said before, "If all Christians were united and believed the same thing; there would be no one to fall under the label of “schismatics” (response to your post quoted below.)
If you don’t want to, that’s fine. 🙂

Peace,
Anna
 
Anna I have been in the Pastoral Council for about 4 years now.

You have NO idea what has happened in my Church.

People have bucked us every single step of the way. They don’t want change, everythings fine the way it is.

But now they are comming up to me, HUGGING Me, telling me the Church has changed so much, we are so much Warmer now.

15 years ago when I started there my husband has a BALD head, shaves it, and rides a motorcycle. He was a biker dude, and I was the biker babe, I swear the first time they saw us, the one women was HOLDING HER PURSE!😃

Now we are all a Close family. Somehow VII is making our Church WARM again.

The Pope said open up the windows and let some fresh air in.

When Father picked my husband and I, We were like are you KIDDING ME! We know nothing about this.

Well we have come a LONG way, and have a long way to go. But so far is has ended up SO SO POSITIVE!
Very good to hear Rinnie. 🙂

Peace,
Anna
 
Oh no Anna, how can that be? How about the people everday who break away from the Church.

Are you going to blame Vatican II for people who get divorced and cannot remarry in the Church. So they leave.

Are you going to blame VII for people who refuse to accept no brith control. abortion.

Look at who implenented Vll. Someone who is soon to be a Saint!! :eek::tiphat:

People need to chill out, and let VII play out, We aren’t nearly done here yet! We have only just begun actually!
Rinnie,
We’re not discussing any of these other reasons that cause Catholics to leave the CC.

We’re talking about EENS and I gave the example of The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Here is more:
(emphasis is mine)
by The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary November 17th, 2005
Our Status in the Church

We are often asked about our community’s status in the Catholic Church. The following points should help to clarify this.
At this point, our congregation is strictly a private association without canonical recognition from the Diocese of Manchester; however, our chapel is an approved house of worship of that same diocese, with a priest licitly offering Mass here and enjoying faculties from Bishop Libasci to hear confessions as well.
As baptized Catholics who hold the Catholic faith in its entirety, we are in communion with the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. We pray for him, as well as for our local bishop, His Excellency, Bishop Peter Anthony Libasci, in all of our Masses.
Our right to defend and promote our doctrinal position — the so-called “strict interpretation” of the binding Catholic dogma, “outside the Church there is no salvation” — has been affirmed by those in authority in the Church. This includes our current Holy Father, while in his former capacity as Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. (For documentary proof of this claim, see the letters linked further down*] on this page.)
For the professional opinion of a competent canon lawyer on whether or not a loyal disciple of Father Leonard Feeney can be a Catholic in good standing, please see the linked PDF file of a letter from Mr. Peter Vere, J.C.L.[1]
Some helpful considerations on our status are contained in the following six points. These touch upon Father Feeney himself, our Richmond, N.H. community’s Catholicity, and the hierarchy’s view of our doctrinal position:
  1. Father Feeney died in the good graces of the Church, without even the slightest ecclesiastical censure remaining upon him. He did so without having changed his position on “no salvation outside the Church.” In fact, he made no doctrinal reversals of any sort. Knowing that he maintained his dogmatic “hard line,” Church officials lifted “any censures which may have been incurred” in 1972. This is minutely documented in the books Harvard to Harvard and They Fought the Good Fight, neither of which was published at the Center in Richmond. . . .
Copyright © 2004-2005 Saint Benedict Center, Richmond, New Hampshire.
Except where otherwise noted, content on this site is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution - Share Alike License.
Link: catholicism.org/our-status-in-the-church.html
If this is such an issue for devoted Catholics; imagine how much more difficult it is for non-Catholics to believe that the teachings of the CC have not changed re EENS. This is really the only point I’m trying to make, by quoting The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Peace,
Anna
 
Sounds like the dumber/more ignorant you are the easier it is to get to heaven. With this way of thinking why would anyone want to strive to learn as much as possible about the Catholic faith. The more you know, the easier it is to lose your salvation. The further away from the faith you are the less you know, which according to some of you means the less one has to do to be saved. What is the point of evangelizing ignorant people if we are dooming them to a life of worry? All they have to is live in ignorant bliss and still be saved. I think this way of thinking is completely backwards. Everytime I discuss it or read about it, I wind up questioning my faith which I never want to do. This whole teaching since Vatican II sounds alot like Universalism. Everyone is saved. Everyone who fails in their faith is just ignorant of the facts. Everyone who isnt Catholic is just ignorant of the faith. The only people who are actually in trouble of losing their salvation are orthodox Catholics. They are the only ones not ignorant of the faith, so their salvation is at risk with every decision. Does noone else see the problem here? I will keep waiting for someone who can actually explain this in a way that I can grasp. In the mean time this orthodox Catholic will keep living my life how the Church has taught me and hope I dont die knowing to much.
 
Sounds like the dumber/more ignorant you are the easier it is to get to heaven. With this way of thinking why would anyone want to strive to learn as much as possible about the Catholic faith. The more you know, the easier it is to lose your salvation. The further away from the faith you are the less you know, which according to some of you means the less one has to do to be saved. What is the point of evangelizing ignorant people if we are dooming them to a life of worry? All they have to is live in ignorant bliss and still be saved. I think this way of thinking is completely backwards. Everytime I discuss it or read about it, I wind up questioning my faith which I never want to do. This whole teaching since Vatican II sounds alot like Universalism. Everyone is saved. Everyone who fails in their faith is just ignorant of the facts. Everyone who isnt Catholic is just ignorant of the faith. The only people who are actually in trouble of losing their salvation are orthodox Catholics. They are the only ones not ignorant of the faith, so their salvation is at risk with every decision. Does noone else see the problem here? I will keep waiting for someone who can actually explain this in a way that I can grasp. In the mean time this orthodox Catholic will keep living my life how the Church has taught me and hope I dont die knowing to much.
My dear brother Hudson 🙂

This is the question which has haunted too many Catholics since this teaching was fully clarified in the twentieth century, namely: “If people can be saved without explicitly recognizing Christ and becoming members of the Catholic Church, why should we bother to try to convert people, to evangelize, and to engage in missionary work?”

I have to go to bed (up early tommorrow) but I will leave you with this article which I think answers your question nicely:

catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=457
 
Rinnie,
I still don’t see a clear explanation of your statement, **“But what people do not understand this teaching was directly for the people in the Church.” **

Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, was very specific. He identified pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics as existing outside the Catholic Church; and he clearly stated they cannot share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

As I said before, "If all Christians were united and believed the same thing; there would be no one to fall under the label of “schismatics” (response to your post quoted below.)

Peace,
Anna
I don’t understand what you are asking me then:confused: Nothing has changed there is no salvation outside of the CC or as I said Jesus Christ.

But it also states as I have told you that there are Visible and Invisible ways that they can be saved that is only known to God. But that in no way means they are not still saved through the Cross.

The only way we are saved is by Jesus Christ and by his Cross to save our sins. I do not see where this teaching or any teaching of the RCC has ever changed.

Lets make this a little easier. Do you feel that there is any way possible for ANYONE to be saved without Jesus Christ?

As I stated if he stated NO ONE can be saved outside of Jesus Christ. What do you feel the current Pope or John Paul II changed or said any different.

The only difference is they said that although it may not be visible, and rather it is, or it is not there is only one way to Salvation is Through the CC or Jesus Christ.

Again what are we disagreeing on here?:confused:

Are you trying to say the teaching has changed?

Because to me, it is explained much clearer is all. But its never changed.
 
My dear brother Hudson 🙂

This is the question which has haunted too many Catholics since this teaching was fully clarified in the twentieth century, namely: “If people can be saved without explicitly recognizing Christ and becoming members of the Catholic Church, why should we bother to try to convert people, to evangelize, and to engage in missionary work?”

I have to go to bed (up early tommorrow) but I will leave you with this article which I think answers your question nicely:

catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=457
This also pretty much sums it up.
 
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