Salvation Outside of the Church

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Yoch, my comments were not directed towards you, but to Icthus.
 
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beng:
Pius IX declared: “By faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certain it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord” (D 1647). The last proposition holds out the possibility that people who in point of fact (actu) do not belong to the church can achieve salvation. Cf. D 1677; 796 (votum baptismi).
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One key point to keep in mind is that the analogy of the ark is meant to exclude any teaching that there is more than one path, i.e. that there are multiple arks.

There is one ark. This means the following groups of people exist:
  1. Those who are on the ark and know it
  2. Those who are off the ark and know it
  3. Those who are on the ark and don’t know it
  4. Those who are off the ark and don’t know it
Case 3 includes the invincibly ignorant.

I think it is case 4 that gives people trouble. It is case 4 that raises the most questions concerning God’s mercy, predestination, grace, etc.
 
here’s some resources that may help:

Salvation Outside the Church
–Ignorance: Invincible and Vincible
–How to Become a Catholic
–Is There Salvation Outside the Church?
–Leonard Freeney on “No Salvation Outside the Church”
–Tragic Errors of Leonard Freeney
–No Salvation Outside the Church
–Salvation Outside the Church
–Which Church Saves?
–The Necessity of Being Catholic
–Is There Salvation Outside the Church?
–Can Outsiders Be Insiders?
–Without the Church There Is No Salvation
–Who Will Be Saved?
–No Salvation Outside the Church?
–The Church Necessary for Salvation
–If “No Salvation Outside the Church” Is Infallible, How Can We Say Today that People Outside Can Be Saved?
–“Mr. Critic” and Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

for more on salvation, justification, and predestination, go here
for the entire reference section at phatmass.com, go here

pax christi,
phatcatholic
 
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wet-rat:
One key point to keep in mind is that the analogy of the ark is meant to exclude any teaching that there is more than one path, i.e. that there are multiple arks.

There is one ark. This means the following groups of people exist:
  1. Those who are on the ark and know it
  2. Those who are off the ark and know it
  3. Those who are on the ark and don’t know it
  4. Those who are off the ark and don’t know it
Case 3 includes the invincibly ignorant.

I think it is case 4 that gives people trouble. It is case 4 that raises the most questions concerning God’s mercy, predestination, grace, etc.
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I’m not sure if people who is invincible ignorance and lead a good life is in the ark during their life. I think they would be in the ark just shortly before they truly die.
 
Last month’s “This Rock” had an article about it. To sum up the article, the normative way to be saved is through the Catholic Church. We don’t know if others are saved, but if they are, it is done through the Catholic Church, whether they know it or not.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Yoch, my comments were not directed towards you, but to Icthus.
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ERRRR, OOPS, my bad…In a hurry again, I suppose. Thanks for clarification. I like this forum, but I wonder if there is a way to thread the response somehow. Might look messy though…

John
 
Catholic Mom 1:
I recently heard someone insist that Catholicism teaches exclusivity of Salvation. That is, only baptized Catholics can achieve Salvation. I of course argued that this is simply not true. However, after finishing that discussion based upon my general understanding of the faith, I went back (for my own peace of mind) to find the Church’s official teaching on this topic. What I found in the CCC and other reference books such as “This Is The Faith” is that the Church is a bit ambiguous on this one. They say you have to be baptized, but then say that we should trust in God’s mercy in cases of miscarriage, etc. In older texts, there is even discussion of two different Limbos, one for all pre-Resurrection souls which was emptied by Jesus. The other is for all unbaptized souls not deserving damnation. Can anyone tell me where to find a solid, definitive statement from the Church on this topic?

Many thanks!
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You can read this if you wish :banghead: olrl.org/apologetics/one_church.shtml
 
Defensor Fidei:
I think it is a little narrower than everyone would like to admit. We know that there are Christians out there that are very anti Catholic and these anti Catholic Christians know very well that the Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church. This would put the onus on the Anti Catholics to find out all they could about the church. I just don’t see how they are invincibly ignorant when they argue with Catholics, especially on these boards.
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I admit that I have not read all of the threads after this one but I would be extremely cautious about passing judgment on the extreme anti-Catholics. Remember that they don’t doubt their position. They don’t reject the Church’s claim out of hand, they believe that they have been given evidence that the Catholic Church is a corrupt pretender to the claim of being Christ’s Church. They think that they have found out all that is necessary to prove that the Church is false. This is based on their own misinterpretation of Scripture, but it IS sincere.

Don’t assume that the weight of our arguments on these boards removes the possibility of invincible ignorance from them for our arguments might not be addressing the REAL issue that keeps them from seeing the glorious light of Christ in the Catholic Church. No matter how clear, well articulated, or long 😃 our arguments may be, we cannot assume that we know enough about their hearts to be certain that they have come to realize the truth but now reject it out of stubborn disobedience to God. At best, we can hope that our presentation of the true teachings of the Faith will open their hearts enough to the promptings of the Holy Spirit to lead them the rest of the way.

If you listen to conversion stories, especially from former anti-Catholics, you will hear one common thread. The absolute horror when they begin to see that the Catholic Church is presenting the true position on matters of faith. At this point, they still don’t believe it because there are too many things that they have been convinced the Church is wrong about. There are a LOT of genuine obsticles to Catholicism; especially for genuine anti-Catholics who believe that the Church is the work of the antichrist.
 
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yochumjy:
I’ve heard another thought process about no salvation except through the Catholic Church, though I don’t have any links. Hopefully, I’m not munging this too badly.
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You give a great description. For a fuller explanation that I have tried to give on this topic, you could look at post #247 in the “Would I be welcome here… IF?” thread and post #141 in the “Loyalty to the Pope or Church” thread.
 
Catholic Mom 1:
All of these different answers are much appreciated. However, in reading all of them I am left with the same dilemma I started with. Everyone seems to be able to quote different parts of our faith to support their own point of view on this topic. Where is the Catholic Church on this today? Specifically, what about people born into and educated in faiths that are not remotely Christian? I can’t believe that God damns all of these souls based upon geography. His desire to make us one with him for eternity is too great for that kind of random selection. Lets face it, where you are born on the planet largely determines whether or not you will be Christian. Yes, I know that there are exceptions, but by and large this is true. Does Catholicism really preach that unbaptized Catholics are damned?
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You are responsible for what you know.
Every time the concept of salvation outside of the church and the Gospel is taught, from Lumen Gentium right through Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II, there is always the additional part of the doctrine that only God knows the who, what, when, where and how. If you think about the first commandment and how it is that Abraham was saved by faith, it is possible to imagine this.
But the point is, if we don’t know who these people are, we cannot assume anything. There is no excuse in this doctrine. For all practical purposes it is speculation.
For us it means it is not our business, it is God’s business. Our business is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His church. We have to assume that anyone who has not heard the Gospel is lost.
And of course that means it is our responsibility to bring them the Gospel. We definitely cannot assume whole races and religions in other parts of the world don’t need to hear about Jesus Christ.
So I don’t find a whole lot of comfort in the doctrine.
 
I don’t know if this is still a “live” thread, but I’ve come across something recently that helped me with the question of “No Salvation Outside the Church.” (Fr.) Karl Adam has a chapter on that very issue in his “The Essence of Catholicism.” I highly recommend it.

In a nutshell, (and I’m paraphrasing from memory), he argues we should make a distinction between issues of dogma (on which there can be no compromise) and how we understand persons (with mercy and humility). So, the Church’s teaching on this is true, but we are not in a position (only God is) to know what an individual understands about “the Church”, “salvation”, etc. Anyway, I recommend anyone interested read the chapter.

But I also recommend the distinction between dogma and individuals for those in this forum. All too often, (it seems to me), an ideological tone emerges when we deal with individual people and their problems.
 
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zange:
I don’t know if this is still a “live” thread, but I’ve come across something recently that helped me with the question of “No Salvation Outside the Church.” (Fr.) Karl Adam has a chapter on that very issue in his “The Essence of Catholicism.” I highly recommend it.
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So do I, although the title of my edition is “The Spirit of Catholicism.”

I quote from it directly on this post in another thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=44016&postcount=353
 
Dave Armstrong has an abridged version of the chapter dealing with “The Church Necessary for Salvation” from Karl Adam’s The Spirit of Catholicism.
 
Thank you for the correction. The books are one and the same.
McCann’s translation of Das Wesen des Katholizismus is
“The Spirit of Catholicism”. Don’t waste time looking for “The Essence of Catholicism”.

Sorry.
 
The other thread has been closed and I don’t know how long it will remain available. Therefore, I am copying it here.
Paul Danon:
The church’s teaching on her being the only way to salvation is harsh, in need of reform and has, indeed, been reformed in recent years.
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I realize that you posted this as a position with which some of us (sedevacantist or not) might associate ourselves so don’t take my response as being directed toward you personally.

The idea that the Church’s teaching on being the only way to salvation being harsh is a heresy that has been rejected many many times in the past. What must be understood is what the Church means by such a delcaration and it does not mean that all non-Catholics are doomed to Hell. Such judgments are left to God alone but the Church teaches the principle of invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. When St. Augustine denied that baptims performed by heretics were invalid based on the idea that there is no salvation outside of the Church his position was not accepted by the Church’s authortitatve magisterium. No salvation outside of the Church means that you cannot look to any other religion as the source of salvation.

Those who have separated from the Church but have not abandoned all of her teachings retain what graces are available in what they have retained. Thus, the graces available through the seven sacraments are available to the Orthodox but not to the Anglicans because the Orthodox have valid episcopal orders and the Anglicans do not. The graces available in the sacraments are there for one purpose alone; our salvation. It is in this sense ONLY that those who have separated from the Catholic Church have “access” to the community of salvation. This access is not available from their religious institution, but from ONLY from what they have kept from the Catholic Church; the ONLY Church in which Christ entrusted the economy of salvation. These graces remain available through the Catholic Church and not because of their own religious institution. The extent to which they have abandoned the graces available through the Church is the extent to which they have cut themselves off from the graces God made available only through her. The graces that remain available come to them through the Catholic Church and are not in any way available through their own religious institutions.

However, not ALL graces are distributed to us through the Church. God has inscribed the natural law on our hearts and our response to it is only possible through God’s grace working through our free will. This is true for those outside of the Church as well as those within. The purpose of God’s grace, in all of its forms, is the same; to lead us to Him. Ideally, this will lead us to recognize Christ as the Messiah and to the one and only Church he founded. But that can be a long journey depending on the personal obstacles one must overcome. Invincible ignorance can come in many forms and some of those forms can be difficult to overcome.

I asked New Crusader in a previous post if the people who died after Christ established the Church but before the Church arrived in their areas to evangelize them went to Hell no matter how good they were; no matter how closely they followed the natural law. The Church does not teach that they necessarily went to hell and, yet, they were not part of the Church.
 
How do Catholics know that the Catholic Church is the true Church which Christ set up?
Turris Fortis:
The basic thrust of the “No Salvation Outside the Church” teaching is this:

There can be no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

This is what the Church really is getting at with this statement. We don’t know who, ultimately, is saved and who is not. But we do know, with 100% certainty, that everyone who is saved is only saved through their union with Jesus Christ.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore if you are united with Christ, you are united with His Church – even if you do not realize it.

As Catholics, we understand the Catholic Church to be the one true Church that Christ founded. Therefore the normative way to be united to Christ is by being a faithful member of the Catholic Church. (Note the emphasis on the word “faithful.”)

Can one be united to Christ and not be a Catholic? Well, as has been pointed out in this thread already, the Catholic Church certainly accepts the validity of most Protestant baptisms. So those who are baptised in the Trinitarian formula outside of the Catholic Church are already united, albeit imperfectly, with the Church.

What is the point of all of this? It is just this, to say that anyone who is saved, is saved because of Christ. And if you are united to Christ, you are part of His Church. The normative way, established by Christ, to achieve this is through the graces mediated to us through the Church that He established. However, it is not for us to determine how God may or may not choose to operate outside of the visible membership of His Church.

If you were not a Catholic before you entered heaven, you will be once you get there. 🙂

But rather than spend time speculating how one may “be saved” outside of the Catholic Church, why not just take the path mapped out for us by the Savior and fully partake in what the Catholic Church has to offer?

Pax Christi,
Matt
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How do Catholics know that the Catholic Church is the true Church which Christ set up?
Turris Fortis:
The basic thrust of the “No Salvation Outside the Church” teaching is this:

There can be no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

This is what the Church really is getting at with this statement. We don’t know who, ultimately, is saved and who is not. But we do know, with 100% certainty, that everyone who is saved is only saved through their union with Jesus Christ.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore if you are united with Christ, you are united with His Church – even if you do not realize it.

As Catholics, we understand the Catholic Church to be the one true Church that Christ founded. Therefore the normative way to be united to Christ is by being a faithful member of the Catholic Church. (Note the emphasis on the word “faithful.”)

Can one be united to Christ and not be a Catholic? Well, as has been pointed out in this thread already, the Catholic Church certainly accepts the validity of most Protestant baptisms. So those who are baptised in the Trinitarian formula outside of the Catholic Church are already united, albeit imperfectly, with the Church.

What is the point of all of this? It is just this, to say that anyone who is saved, is saved because of Christ. And if you are united to Christ, you are part of His Church. The normative way, established by Christ, to achieve this is through the graces mediated to us through the Church that He established. However, it is not for us to determine how God may or may not choose to operate outside of the visible membership of His Church.

If you were not a Catholic before you entered heaven, you will be once you get there. 🙂

But rather than spend time speculating how one may “be saved” outside of the Catholic Church, why not just take the path mapped out for us by the Savior and fully partake in what the Catholic Church has to offer?

Pax Christi,
Matt
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Catholic apologist Peter Kreeft says, “We can and should investigate and learn from the wisdom in other religions” (Peter Kreeft Ecumenical Jihad p.79). “Allah is not another God…we worship the same God” (Peter Kreeft Ecumenical Jihad p.30). “The same God! The very same God we worship in Christ is the God the Jews-and the Muslims-worship.” (Ibid. p. 160)

If Christ and Allah are the same God, then salvation outside the Catholic church theory holds no water based on the Catholic apologist, Peter Kreeft’s statement above. I suppose by deduction, so will the Hindu, the Buddhist and the Animist and the … say the same thing. So what are really fighting about? Salavation is exclusive to each and every religion - The Muslim says there is salvation only in the Islamis faith, and so the other GREAT religions.

Looks like this is what ECUMENISM is really all about.

We live in a world of confusion… bothers and sisters, we are all one saved by the same God (with a million different names) through our faith not by membership cards. Welcome to the club.
 
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