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dtreimer
Guest
More unfounded accusations. Nice. I’ll leave you to them and say peace to you my friend.
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Sirach2
Guest
Yeah, he could lasso the ole horse and force him to drink the water. But that ole horse will break loose as soon as the rope has slacked.
BTW, I don’t recall Dtreimer “patting anyone on the head” etc., as you have accused him of doing.
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Gorgias
Guest
No, but MikeSoCal – to whom you had responded – identifies himself as such.Amandil:
I am not a Baptist
Hmm… that explains a few things…
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Yes, it is.
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dtreimer
Guest
True indeed, and thanks ‘for having my back.’ The only person who I ever persuaded to leave the Church was me – at least for a while. But I give God all the glory in that my 10 years as an evangelical equipped me (for many reasons) to return to His Church better prepared for my own spiritual battles, and those of my brothers and sisters. Peace brother.
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Sirach2
Guest
Yessir, a fine living example of Roman 8:28!
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Theodore_Jones
Guest
Friend there is no contemporary church that Jesus Christ is head of and there are no exceptions. The small narrow door isn’t Christ himself. “For it is NOT those who, just, hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be DECLARED righteous.” Rom. 2:13 There are NO exceptions for those who flatly refuse to obey the law Paul is referencing and he is NOT referring to the Sinai code of law. According to what Christ does say about the small narrow door that is the Way that one MUST have the faith to use in order to get into the church Jesus Christ is head of is that very few ever find out what it actually is. Your dispute is directly with what he has said rather than me. (Edited) So then look. Heb. 7:12 was the law changed? Was this law put into effect through angles by a mediator? Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19. Was it added? Rom. 5:20 (Edited)
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mdcpensive1
Guest
Mr. Jones
Your quote of Heb 7:12 is interesting in that it confirms what we have been telling you. It says there is a new priesthood of which there is. It says because of this new priesthood the law must change which is the Mosaic Law that governed the sacrifices. There will not be any more blood sacrifices of goats, sheep or bulls but the one living sacrifice of Christ our Lord which is now presented by our current priests in the Catholic Church. This is the true revelation that Christ gave directly to us and that cannot be changed by anyone’s opinions. All of the bible quotes you gave agree with the position of the Church that Jesus Himself established.
I wish you a good night and Christ’s peace to you.
Your quote of Heb 7:12 is interesting in that it confirms what we have been telling you. It says there is a new priesthood of which there is. It says because of this new priesthood the law must change which is the Mosaic Law that governed the sacrifices. There will not be any more blood sacrifices of goats, sheep or bulls but the one living sacrifice of Christ our Lord which is now presented by our current priests in the Catholic Church. This is the true revelation that Christ gave directly to us and that cannot be changed by anyone’s opinions. All of the bible quotes you gave agree with the position of the Church that Jesus Himself established.
I wish you a good night and Christ’s peace to you.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Alright people, let’s stop the personal flame war http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flame.gif here and get back on the topic. State facts, historical evidence, and scripture and leave the heat for those folks who have been hip deep (or more) in snow and ice for so many months now.
Several posts have been edited or deleted and citations given for some posts. See the link in my sig line for guidance as to what is acceptable here on CAF.
Alright people, let’s stop the personal flame war http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flame.gif here and get back on the topic. State facts, historical evidence, and scripture and leave the heat for those folks who have been hip deep (or more) in snow and ice for so many months now.
Several posts have been edited or deleted and citations given for some posts. See the link in my sig line for guidance as to what is acceptable here on CAF.
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Amandil
Guest
John 10:
[1] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber;
[2] but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
[3] To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
[4] When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
[5] A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
[6] This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
[7] So Jesus again said to them, **"Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. **
[8] All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them.
[9] **I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. **
Scripture clearly contradicts the assertion you make.
The problem is that no one can obey the law. Neither the Sinai/Mosaic law nor the natural law.
And Christ didn’t come to establish a “law”, He came to establish a Church.
So are you claiming to have some special authority or knowledge that the Apostles didn’t? Because the Bible itself testifies and presupposes the existence of a Church, a Church which came into existence at Pentecost.
This Church IS in fact historical. It has a 2000 year history. It can be found because I found it.
Not at all. My dispute is with you because you are distorting Scripture to suit your beliefs.
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Church_Militant
Guest
These sources from the AAA forum might help clear this up a bit…
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dtreimer
Guest
Thanks for the links, though they don’t really relate to the specific hypothetical posed in this thread, namely, a baptized Catholic who leaves the Church (for reasons more fully set forth in previous posts). But I do thank you for posting these.
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dtreimer
Guest
I’m having grade school flashbacks.http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-2.gif
Alright people, let’s stop the personal flame war http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flame.gif here and get back on the topic. State facts, historical evidence, and scripture and leave the heat for those folks who have been hip deep (or more) in snow and ice for so many months now.
Several posts have been edited or deleted and citations given for some posts. See the link in my sig line for guidance as to what is acceptable here on CAF.
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Church_Militant
Guest
It occurs to me that in some matters the church does not say and in the end, what she is saying to us is that since we are not God, that we cannot definitively know the state of another’s soul and just leave it to Him who does.
As one who fled the church for far too many years and then by His grace and mercy came home, I resolved that, had not it been God’s will for me to return, I would not have been compelled by the Holy Spirit to do so.
Certainly I could have continued to flee, but as the psalmist says in Psalm 139…
[7] Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face? [8] If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. [9] If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea: [10] Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.[11]* And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures. [12] But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee. [13] For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast protected me from my mother’ s womb. [14] I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works, and my soul knoweth right well. [15] My bone is not hidden from thee, which thou hast made in secret: and my substance in the lower parts of the earth.[16]* Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them. [17] But to me thy friends, O God, are made exceedingly honourable: their principality is exceedingly strengthened. [18] I will number them, and they shall be multiplied above the sand: I rose up and am still with thee.
Then also, there is Luke 15 and the prodigal…
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Theodore_Jones
Guest
Nada. By making a change OF the law a unique jurisprudence procedure of the Way the law must be obeyed was put into effect since the sin of murder by malice aforethought was not allowed to be reconciled by the written code.
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Amandil
Guest
I’m sorry sir but you’re still wrong. You’re ripping Hebrews 7 out of context like you do Romans 2.
Christ didn’t establish a new legal code, nor is salvation based upon forensic justification.
Hebrews 7:11-19
] Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levit’ical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchiz’edek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
] For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.**
] For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.*
] For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.*
] This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchiz’edek,*
] who has become a priest,** not according to a legal requirement concerning bodily descent but by the power of an indestructible life.**
] For it is witnessed of him, “Thou art a priest for ever,
after the order of Melchiz’edek.”
]** On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness*
] (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.***
You cannot formulate a theory on soteriology based upon selective prooftexting because you’re basing your theory on incomplete data.
You are attempting to be justified by the law, not by the grace of Christ as the new and eternal High Priest.
By claiming to be justified by the law you are denying Christ and making void His work of Redemption upon Calvary.
Christ didn’t establish a new legal code, nor is salvation based upon forensic justification.
Hebrews 7:11-19
] Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levit’ical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchiz’edek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
] For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.**
] For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.*
] For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.*
] This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchiz’edek,*
] who has become a priest,** not according to a legal requirement concerning bodily descent but by the power of an indestructible life.**
] For it is witnessed of him, “Thou art a priest for ever,
after the order of Melchiz’edek.”
]** On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness*
] (for the law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.***
You cannot formulate a theory on soteriology based upon selective prooftexting because you’re basing your theory on incomplete data.
You are attempting to be justified by the law, not by the grace of Christ as the new and eternal High Priest.
By claiming to be justified by the law you are denying Christ and making void His work of Redemption upon Calvary.
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Theodore_Jones
Guest
It is Rom. 2:13 and Hebrews 7:12 not Heb. 7 and Rom. 2. Paul says be like him and tare down strongholds; so what’s you’re gripe? It is an impossibility that anyone who holds the soteriological assumption you have faith in to have ever thought of the Rom. 2:13 statement and much more if they did they would have never written it down. But it is written and the man who wrote also says “Do not go beyond what is written.” 1 Cor. 4:6 In case you missed what I’ve said “The law Paul referenced in Rom. 2:13 is NOT the Sinai code.” Is that clear? As matter of fact that law is the same law Stephen, a man who was described being full of grace and truth, references in Acts 7:53 “put into effect through angels, but have not obeyed it.”, which you haven’t and evidently never will, and Paul references again in Gal. 3:19, “put into effect through angels by a Mediator.” In case you’ve missed it there is not any mention of angles putting the Sinai code into effect and the Mediator of that code had not even been born when the Sinai code was put into effect! Had He?
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Amandil
Guest
And?
- That’s not what Paul says. "[3] For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, [4] for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. [5] We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
[6] being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Circular logic precisely because you’re reading your own soteriological assumptions into the text.
Again, more protestant-esque eisegesis. There is nothing in the context to suggest what you’re trying to make that verse say.
What you apparently can’t “get” is that no law can justify a person before God.
So just as the Sinai Law cannot justify the Jews, so neither can the “Gentile Law” you espouse justify you as a Gentile.
1)Stephen was a man of God within the Body of Christ-the Catholic Church.
2)You’re ignoring the next 10 verses or so which continue the thought of verse 19:
[20] Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.
[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
[22] But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[23] Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed.
[24] So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian;
[26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
So again your views stand contrary to Scripture properly understood.
Which again is irrelevant to the issue of your false soteriology. Whether its by the Sinai Law or by the “Gentile” law no man is justified by the law because “[10] For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. (Jas 2:10)”
&
"8] Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully,[9] understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient…(1 Tim 1:8-9).
No one can possibly be “good” enough to follow the law you claim as your salvation based on Romans 2:13. Because “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”(1 John 1:8)
If you have sin, you have NOT followed the “Gentile” law.
Thus you are wholly condemned, which is the point of Romans 2 to begin with. Thus you cannot be saved by the law you claim you are saved by, because you are not a “doer of the law.”
The only way to be saved is through Baptism(Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21), and to be incorporated into the Body of Christ-the Church.
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Theodore_Jones
Guest
Is it untrue that only a very few ever find what the door into God’s kingdom is? How is it that you, not knowing me from Adam’s house cat, also know I am not a doer of the law that has been put into effect through angles that has been authored by the hand of the Mediator?
“For it is not those who,just, hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom. 2:13 It is only one who has the faith to OBEY that added law which Stephen and Paul has referenced, and be baptized into his confession of what is required from each man by this law; only them are added to the church Jesus Christ is head of. There are no exceptions no matter how much thou doth protest.
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Amandil
Guest
1)God is a lover, not an accountant. The point of the teaching there not about who the “few” are or who the “many” are; the only point to the teaching was to “strive to enter through the narrow door”.
The door is Christ. And without the Church, since the Church is the Body of Christ, you do not have Christ.
I don’t have to know who you are to know that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”(Romans 3:23).
Thus you, because you are a sinner as much as I am(1 John 1:8), without the Grace of God in Christ and being united to Christ’s Body, **All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law **(Romans 2:12).
“This law” is the law of Grace via Christ in His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
[22] and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, [23] which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
You’re claiming to be saved not by the Body of Christ but by climbing over the fence by another way, a way YOU created "as a thief or robber(John 10:1).
I’m not saying that you cannot deceive yourself into thinking that you can work your way into salvation by following this subjective “law” you claim to follow and which you misinterpret from the Scriptures, but that’s all it is: self deception.
That you have responded with the polemic you have and that you keep repeating the same argument over and over again demonstrates that not only can you overcome the deficiencies in your own argument, you’re showing that you’re not even entirely sure of your soteriology yourself. The Truth often generates hatred because it exposes falsehoods.
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