Salvation outside the church

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Maybe you can give me some pointers. I think I know most of the teachings of the Church quite well, but handling these issues with someone that is violently (or mildly) opposed to the Catholic Church just starts arguments. I think your point about the Government and this system is quite good for most people but my wife, a Jehovah’s Witness, has no faith in government or this man-made world. They just have faith in the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Any ideas?

By the way, maybe a little more on this reasoning. I have some family that have left and I am encouraging to come back.
**Just a note. I am a commited Catholic; I try to go to Mass a couple of times a week, teach Catechim, teach a little bible… just one holy son-of-a-gun. I am no where near a CINO. But let me tell you I have next to zero faith in government.

My I recommend Thomas Woods’ writings a great Catholic or better yet Frederic Bastiat’s “The Law” written in 1848 or even better yet Fr. Sirico’s current best sellar “Defending The Free Enterprise System” and even better the web page “The Acton Institute”. And be sure to get your hand on Centisimus Annus. This encyclical was written in 1991, stating that all Socialism is a sin because it causes envy and is stealing.**
 
Baptism does not save anyone.
Baptism is necessary for salvation but not sufficient. You must be baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace to be saved.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that if one dies immediately after being baptized he/she goes directly to heaven?

Can you give me the Scripture, book, chapter and verse that teaches what you wrote? Please don’t quote Scriptures directed to Israel and their kingdom program.

Thanks,
QC
 
QuickCat, we need not worry -The Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, teaches the long held tradition, relating to St. Paul’s words comparing husband and wife to Christ and the Church, and The Pope confirms that the Church is the Bride of Christ:* The Body is The Bride. * It is a mystic and beautiful **relationship **that The Pope confirms.

Did he say that the “one new MAN” of Ephesians 2:15 is also the “Bride?” Ephesians 5 is an analogy, Paul doesn’t contradict what he wrote in chapter 2.

QC
 
But you fail to mention that the only way to salvation is to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”
No, QC. Even the demons believe.

The Catholic Church has never taught that “the only way to salvation” is to believe. Rather, “the only way to salvation” is through the Church, which is the Body of Christ.
 
Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that if one dies immediately after being baptized he/she goes directly to heaven?

Can you give me the Scripture, book, chapter and verse that teaches what you wrote? Please don’t quote Scriptures directed to Israel and their kingdom program.

Thanks,
QC
We can play that game too… can you point out where Sola Scriptura is in the bible? Book/chapter/verse please.
 
We can play that game too… can you point out where Sola Scriptura is in the bible? Book/chapter/verse please.
Stewstew03: You didn’t answer my question? Hmmmm! Sola Scriptura is another subject which I will be happy to discuss with you after you answer the question I posed.
Thanks,
QC
 
Stewstew03: You didn’t answer my question? Hmmmm! Sola Scriptura is another subject which I will be happy to discuss with you after you answer the question I posed.
Thanks,
QC
The question *was *an answer to yours, QC. The point being that we as Catholics do not need to proof-text our doctrines. Our doctrines are not distilled from the words of a book, no matter how holy. Our doctrines come from Christ, through his apostles, through the Church.
 
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QuickCat:
Paul … tells us what this baptism is in 1 Cor. 12:13 where he notes that, “By ONE [Holy} Spirit we were all baptied into ONE Body.” Here the [Holy} Spirit is the baptizer and the Body of Christ is the element we are baptized into. This is plainly Holy Spirit [not water] baptism.
See Mt 12:28 – you have the same construction there (ἐν πνεύματι). Who is casting out demons here, the Holy Spirit or Jesus? Clearly, it’s Jesus, with the Holy Spirit being the instrument of that action. Same thing in 1 Cor 12 – the Holy Spirit is the instrument by which the baptism is taking place, but is not the actor – it is the baptism of Jesus Christ, performed by the (human) baptizer, through the Holy Spirit.

Baptism does not save anyone.
Baptism is necessary for salvation but not sufficient. You must be baptised, Catholic, and die in a state of grace to be saved.
Baptism is the normative means through which salvation is achieved. Also, it would be contrary to Catholic thought throughout the ages to assert that only Catholics will be saved.
 
No, QC. Even the demons believe.

The Catholic Church has never taught that “the only way to salvation” is to believe. Rather, “the only way to salvation” is through the Church, which is the Body of Christ.
My friend, that isn’t the Biblical plan of salvation. The Biblical plan simply states that you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the payment of your sins, that He was buried and that He rose again in order to be saved. Paul calls this the gospel by which "you are S-A-V-E-D - 1 Cor. 15:1-4. The moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he is S-E-A-L-E-D by God the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of his body. Further he is baptized BY the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ - Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 12:13. You don’t join the church in order to be saved. Grace and Peace,
QC
 
My friend, that isn’t the Biblical plan of salvation. The Biblical plan simply states that you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the payment of your sins, that He was buried and that He rose again in order to be saved. Paul calls this the gospel by which "you are S-A-V-E-D - 1 Cor. 15:1-4. The moment one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ he is S-E-A-L-E-D by God the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of his body. Further he is baptized BY the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ - Eph. 1:13; 1 Cor. 12:13. You don’t join the church in order to be saved. Grace and Peace,
QC
Baptism is a divine command:
As stated above (a. 1, ad 2; q. 68, a. 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fullness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.” (Summa Theologica, IIIa q.69, a.4, ad 2)
Not only does sacramental Baptism confer grace; it also contains grace.
 
How do we know that Pope Zosimus’ Tractoria was under the charisma of infallibility? I am not saying you are wrong; I am trying to educate myself regarding recognizing when something is considered infallible. Now please do not misunderstand, I do feel uncomfortable that there is a conflict in communications of the current Magisterium and the past ones that you have quoted. The current Catechism clearly says that a baby can go to heaven, that one does not (necessarily) have to be Water Baptized etc.

I am also curious why you do not give weight to current doctrine and try to find what is the proper reconcilation between (what appears) as differences. The current Catechism says,
“…(teaching) has ALWAYS held…” the view that one does not need a formal baptism under certain circumstances… How do you reconcile the (apparent) differences?

Thank you; I hope I do not appear acerbic. “Love conquers all”
Sorry for such a long time in my reply. To be in fallible from that Chair of Peter it must a definitively teaching and clear as such. Usually an addition of an: “anathema” or “We define” …“By the supreme authority of Peter…” or the like. The teaching must be to the whole Church. Contrary to the myth, popes have used their binding powers throughout history.

In ecclesiastical matters of faith and morals, the word “definition” has a precise and, yes, DEFINED meaning.
Many are mislead by equating the statements from the CCC with solemn infallible dogmatic definitions of the Church. **They are not the same. ** Catechisms certainly can quote dogmatic definitions, but NO catechism can in and of itself pronounce its OWN dogmatic definition. Catechisms are not SOURCES of the Catholic Faith. They are simply compendiums and/or systematized presentations of Church teaching often influenced by prevailing theological trends. It is the Magisterium ALONE, in her binding documents, where we have our immediate source of the Faith. (Scripture and Tradition are our remote sources of the faith.)

The Tractoria of Pope Zosimus was written to the whole world. It condemned the many errors of Pelagianism.All the bishops of the world were required to sign it or be dethroned from their bishopric and anathema… This is very authoritative and clear exercising the power of Peter…
Traditionally it is held Zosimus published Carthage’s canons as his own. It is referred to in the Council of Ephesus:
“The “Tractoria” was sent to the whole world:
" …Pope ZOSIMUS of blessed memory directs us, when writing to the bishops of the whole world…” (Ephesus;Denzinger 134) Not just to the western churches.
again:
“The same teacher ZOSIMUS trained us , who, when spoke to the whole world…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 135)

Zosimus accepted the council of Carthage as his own and proclaimed it to the whole Church, with canonical punishment if his teaching (not discipline) was not followed, thus making it infallible. The Council of Ephesus continues by quoting the document:
" ’ We[Zosimus], however, by the inspiration of God…have referred all things to that of our brothers and co-bishops.’ " This is the beginning of his “Tractoria” and it tells us ALL things are referred to African bishops and which was the Council of Carthage received this great praise:
“Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own….” (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
and The council of Ephesus says that :
“But although we do not dare to esteem lightly the deeper and more difficult parts of the questions which they [Augustine and Zosimus] have treated in more detail who have restrained the heretics, we do not consider it necessary to add what their writings, according to the aforementioned regulation of the Apostolic See, have taught us…”(Ephesus; Denzinger 142)
Council of Cathage accepted as the Holy Sees own and published tot he whole world diffinatively:
“that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema.”

I find the CCC weak and confusing on certain points but I don’t disregard it.
If you look in the CCC index you will see Limbo. But it is not in the texts. So the “hope of salvation” must be seen as a “type of salvation” =Limbo. No the Beatific Vision.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1994: “The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” (Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, Ignatius Press)

So we must seek sources outside the CCC for authority. There is non for the salvation of infants, without baptism…
 
Maybe you can give me some pointers. I think I know most of the teachings of the Church quite well, but handling these issues with someone that is violently (or mildly) opposed to the Catholic Church just starts arguments. I think your point about the Government and this system is quite good for most people but my wife, a Jehovah’s Witness, has no faith in government or this man-made world. They just have faith in the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Any ideas?

By the way, maybe a little more on this reasoning. I have some family that have left and I am encouraging to come back.
I have asked JW’s if there magazine and teachings are infallible? I intentionally use the word:“infallible” it works wonders. They usually say no so that means they could be wrong. If they say yes then ask them who taught this infallible teaching? There really don’t know who publishes their stuff.

Second avenue is to look at teh list of genealogies in the Bible. the “begats”. Why are they there it is to show the true line of the true faith. That is why God says I am the God of Abraham, Issac, ( not Ishmael) and Jacob ( not Esau) The blessing of the true faith comes through the line of Seth to Jesus. This the proof from the Bible so on the same theory show the linage of their Church to Christ. I hope this is clear and you can take it from there. I have used this on JW’s and they seemed shook up.
 
Sorry for such a long time in my reply. To be in fallible from that Chair of Peter it must a definitively teaching and clear as such. Usually an addition of an: “anathema” or “We define” …“By the supreme authority of Peter…” or the like. The teaching must be to the whole Church. Contrary to the myth, popes have used their binding powers throughout history.

In ecclesiastical matters of faith and morals, the word “definition” has a precise and, yes, DEFINED meaning.
Many are mislead by equating the statements from the CCC with solemn infallible dogmatic definitions of the Church. **They are not the same. ** Catechisms certainly can quote dogmatic definitions, but NO catechism can in and of itself pronounce its OWN dogmatic definition. Catechisms are not SOURCES of the Catholic Faith. They are simply compendiums and/or systematized presentations of Church teaching often influenced by prevailing theological trends. It is the Magisterium ALONE, in her binding documents, where we have our immediate source of the Faith. (Scripture and Tradition are our remote sources of the faith.)

The Tractoria of Pope Zosimus was written to the whole world. It condemned the many errors of Pelagianism.All the bishops of the world were required to sign it or be dethroned from their bishopric and anathema… This is very authoritative and clear exercising the power of Peter…
Traditionally it is held Zosimus published Carthage’s canons as his own. It is referred to in the Council of Ephesus:
“The “Tractoria” was sent to the whole world:
" …Pope ZOSIMUS of blessed memory directs us, when writing to the bishops of the whole world…” (Ephesus;Denzinger 134) Not just to the western churches.
again:
“The same teacher ZOSIMUS trained us , who, when spoke to the whole world…” (Ephesus; Denzinger 135)

Zosimus accepted the council of Carthage as his own and proclaimed it to the whole Church, with canonical punishment if his teaching (not discipline) was not followed, thus making it infallible. The Council of Ephesus continues by quoting the document:
" ’ We[Zosimus], however, by the inspiration of God…have referred all things to that of our brothers and co-bishops.’ " This is the beginning of his “Tractoria” and it tells us ALL things are referred to African bishops and which was the Council of Carthage received this great praise:
“Furthermore that which was determined in the decrees of the synod of Cathage, [418 AD] we have embraced as the Apostolic See’s own….” (Ephesus; Denzinger 136)
and The council of Ephesus says that :
“But although we do not dare to esteem lightly the deeper and more difficult parts of the questions which they [Augustine and Zosimus] have treated in more detail who have restrained the heretics, we do not consider it necessary to add what their writings, according to the aforementioned regulation of the Apostolic See, have taught us…”(Ephesus; Denzinger 142)
Council of Cathage accepted as the Holy Sees own and published tot he whole world diffinatively:
“that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is eternal life, let him be anathema.”

I find the CCC weak and confusing on certain points but I don’t disregard it.
If you look in the CCC index you will see Limbo. But it is not in the texts. So the “hope of salvation” must be seen as a “type of salvation” =Limbo. No the Beatific Vision.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1994: “The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess” (Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 26, Ignatius Press)

So we must seek sources outside the CCC for authority. There is non for the salvation of infants, without baptism…
The Council of Carthage did not qualify “baptism.” The Council could have said “the sacrament of baptism,” “sacramental baptism,” “baptism in water,” etc. Indeed, St. Pope Innocent I who held the Throne of Peter at the time of Carthage stated:
“But that which Your Fraternity asserts the Pelagians preach, that even without the grace of Baptism infants are able to be endowed with the rewards of eternal life, is quite idiotic.” (Pope St. Innocent, 414)
Still, it has been the constant faith of the Catholic Church that there are children who end this life in “original sin alone”:
As stated above (Article 6), Christ’s descent into hell had its effect of deliverance on them only who through faith and charity were united to Christ’s Passion, in virtue whereof Christ’s descent into hell was one of deliverance. But the children who had died in original sin were in no way united to Christ’s Passion by faith and love: for, not having the use of free will, they could have no faith of their own; nor were they cleansed from original sin either by their parents’ faith or by any sacrament of faith. Consequently, Christ’s descent into hell did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy Fathers were delivered from hell by being admitted to the glory of the vision of God, to which no one can come except through grace; according to Romans 6:23: “The grace of God is life everlasting.” Therefore, since children dying in original sin had no grace, they were not delivered from hell. (Summa Theologica III, q.52, a.7)
The present Catechism affirms St. Thomas’ teaching (who is also directly quoted by the Catechism seven times):
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”. Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.
405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
So, unless one is going to claim that Saint Thomas and the CCC are teaching the existence of “null sets,” then it is clear that there are at least some children who are in Limbo, having ended this life without sacramental Baptism. We are, of course, “allowed to hope” (CCC, #1261) that there are some exceptions.
 
Just read basically this whole thread, I have one question… Is there salvation outside the church? It seems to me that no one has the answer, except God himself.
 
Just read basically this whole thread, I have one question… Is there salvation outside the church? It seems to me that no one has the answer, except God himself.
You’re gonna have to be a bit more precise in the formulation of your question, or else the answers you get will be all over the place.

Does salvation come from anyone else but Jesus, and – more to the point – from him through the Church? No

Does this mean that only Catholics may be saved? No

If non-Catholics may be saved, does that mean that a (well-catechized) Catholic may leave the Church and yet still attain salvation? *That’s a more delicate question, but in general, *no.
 
My friend, that isn’t the Biblical plan of salvation. The Biblical plan simply states that you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the payment of your sins, that He was buried and that He rose again in order to be saved. Paul calls this the gospel by which "you are S-A-V-E-D - 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
This is very Catholic of you to say, QC! 👍

However, Catholics take the Bible in its entirety, and not to the exclusion of other verses.

This is how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)
 
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