Salvation outside the church

[NorthTexan88]

So is salvation being possible for those outside of the Church, the understanding of what we have of it now, considered doctrinal development or something like that? Protestants went from being heretics at the Council of Trent to our separated brethren at V2. Does this mean that the original Protestants were heretics but the subsequent generations were not?
I still believe they are heretics because they believe heretical things, but they can still go to Heaven by virtue of their baptism, is this correct?

 

[Jehannette]

So is salvation being possible for those outside of the Church, the understanding of what we have of it now, considered doctrinal development or something like that? Protestants went from being heretics at the Council of Trent to our separated brethren at V2. Does this mean that the original Protestants were heretics but the subsequent generations were not?
I still believe they are heretics because they believe heretical things, but they can still go to Heaven by virtue of their baptism, is this correct?

Consider what Pope Eugene IV stated at the Council of Florence:

Eugenius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, for an everlasting record. The duties of the pastoral office over which we preside by divine mercy, despite our lack of merit, demand that we repress by opportune remedies the nefarious excesses of evil-minded persons, especially those who, unless prevented, strive to force the peaceful state of the church into various dangerous storms and disturbances and who endeavour to overturn the barque of Peter, and that we inflict due retribution for their excesses, lest boasting of their malice they give occasion to others to commit mischief. For it is a crime to be slack in punishing crimes that harm many people, as canonical regulations state.

Thus, the former council of Basel debated the choice of a place for the future ecumenical council. Those on whom the power of choosing the place devolved, passed a decree which was accepted by the ambassadors of our most dear son in Christ John, emperor of the Greeks, and of our venerable brother Joseph, patriarch of Constantinople. Some persons chose Avignon or another place, but the said ambassadors protested that most assuredly they did not want to go there, declaring as certain that the said emperor and patriarch would by no means go to the said sacred council unless we attended in person. Those who asked for Avignon, afraid that the Greeks certainly would not come to them, dared to concoct a certain decree or notorious pamphlet, which they call a monition, against us, even though it is null and indeed leads to serious scandal and a split in the church, disrupting this holy work of union with the Greeks.

So, there is a clear precedent within Catholic Magisterial teaching for politeness.

The Catechism speaks of culpable unbelief:

678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching. Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light. Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned. Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love. On the Last Day Jesus will say: “Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

And, of invincible ignorance:

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

We’ll all know everything at the Last Judgment:

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

Protestants and the Orthodox (and, Catholics, too!), in virtue of their sacramental Baptisms, are obliged to believe everything which Christ has revealed through the Catholic Church:

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

 

[steve_b]

the Athanasian Creed, which begins: “Whoever wishes to be saved must, first of all, hold the Catholic faith, which, unless a man shall have held it whole and inviolate, he will most certainly perish forever.” This is not only a Creed of the Catholic Church that one must believe to be Catholic, but the Athanasian Creed was also part of the Church’s public liturgy. Before Vatican II, it was recited at the Office of Prime on Trinity Sunday.
the Council of Florence under Pope Eugene IV. Here the Church declared infallibly:
“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, February 4, 1442]
[Vatican I, Session III, Chap. IV, Dei Filius] Vatican I’s Dei Filius says clearly, “let therefore the understanding, the knowledge and the wisdom of individual men, and of all men of one man, and of the entire Church, grow and advance greatly and powerfully, over the course of the years and the ages, but only in its own class, in the same dogma, with the same meaning and in the same explanation.” The Oath Against Modernism brings out the same truth. The man who takes this Oath makes the following promise, “I sincerely receive the doctrine of faith handed down to us from the Apostles through the orthodox Fathers, with the same meaning and the same explanation (eodem sensu eademque sententia); and consequently I completely reject the heretical fiction of an evolution of dogma, changing from one meaning to another, different from that which the Church first held.”
The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X. Here we read, “Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics and excommunicated persons.” It states further, “No one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church."​

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race … His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.
…
846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”​

The wording here is needlessly vague, evasive even. “The plan of salvation also includes…” “saving designs extend to all…” “may achieve eternal salvation.” - Plans and designs of salvation? Does that mean salvation is found in their current situation or that it’s leading them to a necessary next step? May achieve? How? By eventually coming to conversion, or is it ok to continue in ignorance of Christ?
Ambiguous wording aside, the Church by and large has been propagating this idea that you don’t need to be Catholic to go to Heaven ever since Vatican II.

[lots of snips for space]

The Church obviously makes allowances for Ignorance only as long as what a person should know but doesn’t, is through no fault of their own. Feigned ignorance and intentionally avoiding knowing what one should know, only makes one guilty of everyrthing they do [CCC #’s 1791 &1859 paraphrased]. As #846 in the CCC says, "once one knows, then “they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

#846 Sounds harsh but it’s absolutely scriptural. See Rom [16:17-20 & Gal 5:19-21]
Paul said, People who divide and remain so from the Church, i.e. divide from the only Church Jesus started, with Peter as the leader, will not inherit heaven. That’s because one who divides and remains so, or one who sees they are divided and won’t correct it, is following their will, not Our Lord’s will, and division from the Church is a grave sin against charity towards God and neighbor…

 

[Jehannette]

They (the Magisterium) are playing the “salutary repentance” card:

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Of course, what the Triune God can do for those who take their own lives, he can also do for virtuous Jews, Muslims, etc.

The CCC makes clear what Heaven is like:

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

So, if a “non-Catholic” makes it to Heaven, he/she will behold the Triune God:

954 The three states of the Church. “When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is”’:

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.

So, eventually, everyone, without exception, will know the Truth:

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed.”

We should all hope that every human being, without exception, comes to explicit faith in the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ and into full communion with the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church, which is governed by the Successor to Peter. However, unless we want to wish eternal damnation on vast numbers of non-Catholics (a mortal sin), we should all hope that there is a “Plan B.”

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

A sincere faithful Catholic friend posed this question to me and I’d like some clear, cogent responses to his inquiry:

This has been bothering me for the last few years and I’ve come to a point where I really need someone to give me a clear answer.​

On the subject of the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation, there is, first of all, the Athanasian Creed, which begins: “Whoever wishes to be saved must, first of all, hold the Catholic faith, which, unless a man shall have held it whole and inviolate, he will most certainly perish forever.” This is not only a Creed of the Catholic Church that one must believe to be Catholic, but the Athanasian Creed was also part of the Church’s public liturgy. Before Vatican II, it was recited at the Office of Prime on Trinity Sunday.

As for the doctrine “Out-side the Church there is no salvation,” it has been three times defined by the Catholic Church. . . .

Your friend should look at all the Church has taught on the subject of salvation outside the church. He may even limit himself to statements made before Vatican II.

---

Many of the gentiles received revelations of Christ, as is clear from their predictions. . . . If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.”
[St. Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theologica, II-II, 2, 7 ad 3]

---

For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is” (1 Jn 3:2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” (Eph 4:5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
[Pius IX, Allocution *Singulari quadem, 9 Dec 1854. DS 1646-7]

1. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
2. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”
   [Pius IX, *Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 10 Aug 1863. DS 1677-8] to the Cardinals and to Our Venerable Brothers, the Archbishops and Bishops of Italy.
3. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the “great and glorious Body of Christ” and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.
   [Pius XII, *Mystici Corporis, 1943, #s 103-4]

"To gain eternal salvation it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is required that he belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit, as it is with catechumens. When a man is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good dispositions of soul by which a man wants his will to be confirmed to God’s will.

This is clearly taught by the Sovereign Pontiff Pope Pius XII in his doctrinal letter on the Mystical Body of Christ. . . . Toward the end of the encyclical, when with all his heart he invites to union those who do not pertain to the body of the Catholic Church, the Pope mentions those ‘who are ordained to the mystical Body of the Redeemer by some kind of unconscious desire or longing.’ He by no means excludes these men from eternal salvation, but, on the other hand, he does point out that they are in a condition ‘in which they cannot be secure about their salvation. . . since they lack many great gifts and helps from God which they can enjoy only in the Catholic Church.’

With these prudent words the Pope censures those who exclude from eternal salvation all men who adhere to the Church only with an implicit desire; and he also censures those who falsely maintain that men can be saved equally well in any religion.”
[Pius XII, Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston, 1949, DS 3870] re Fr. Leonard Feeney

 

[antunesaa]

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, February 4, 1442]

This clear statement means that those outside the Catholic Church will be lost if they do not come to her bosom before death. Modern understanding of death and numerous well-documented cases state that the moment of death can actually be quite long for the subject. People with near death experiences have reported seeing a bright light at the end of a dark tunnel, watching their entire lives unfold before them, etc. We don’t know whether a person of the Trinity addresses those dying and gives them the opportunity to embrace the Church. What seems like an instantaneous moment for people watching from the outside can actually be an eternity under God’s power. So we just don’t know. The Church has never said whether Hell is packed or empty. The best we can do is to embrace her and take heed of the numerous statements made by the Church over the centuries. The ordinary way to enter Heaven is through the Catholic Church. Outside her, you’re on you own!

 

[Analyticalpoet]

If there is any Salvation “Outside” the Church, it is because of the Church’s intercessory role. The Church has always prayed for Men of Goodwill, and as such, if people are truly of Goodwill then they will be saved, by the grace of God and the intercession of the Church.

 

[tomch]

For those who are struggling with this confusing matter, I strongly recommend a book called “Apostolic Digest” by Michael Malone which greatly helped me resolve the matter in my own mind.

 

[pbecke]

I think it is similar to the way the Catechism articulates the necessity of Baptism in CCC 1257:

*God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *

The only way we know with certainty that we can be saved is by being baptized into the Catholic Church. This is the way that God has revealed to us as the ordinary way in which we can be saved.

However, since God is not bound to operate only in this way, there exists the possibility that others may be saved in some extraordinary way known to God alone.

Since we know that Jesus is the only Way to the Father and the only One who can save, and since we know that the Church is the Body of Christ on earth, we can still say that these non-Catholics who might be saved are truly saved through Christ and the Church, even if it is in a mysterious way known only to God. Christ is the One who paid the price and shed His blood. He can dispense that salvific gift any way He chooses.

Really, I find the Church’s articulation in the Catechism to be brilliant. First, it emphasizes the importance of the the Church as this ordinary way to salvation which gives us certainty. This discourages laxity in our evangelization efforts because the Church is vitally important. Second, it emphasizes God’s mercy and His ability to work outside of the means He has revealed to us. This discourages presumption in assuming we know the fate of any person’s soul. It also gives us hope that even those who have not been baptized may be counted among the elect.

So really, it gives us the best of both worlds. We cannot take a “live and let live” attitude as though the Church makes no difference. But neither can we adopt a smug, superior attitude as though we alone are going to Heaven. This teaching helps us navigate between those two opposite extremes.

Does that make sense?

Brilliant, Joe. Basically, the answer is given very emphatically in Christ’s description of the Last Judgment in Matthew’s gospel, the only description of it given in the whole of the Bible: scripture and tradition are providential gifts in the service of love. Love and commitment were not intended as to serve them. Rather akin to Christ’s precept that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

None of which absolves us, who know better, from adhering to the precepts of our faith as best we can, or from our duty to evangelise as best we can, according to how amenable we perceive the potential convert to be. I found, in the army, that after a few drinks, it was the other lads who would always bring up the subject. “In vino veritas”, as they say.

 

[David_Harrison]

That so many people have a different take on the matter of salvation, Scripture MUST BE the final arbiter in any discussion. A Berean attitude (Acts 17:11) is essential to find confirmation on matters of the Christian faith.

One becomes a Christian upon confessing Christ as Lord and believing that He rose from the dead. Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." This is the Gospel message in all its beautiful simplicity. In being ‘saved’ one becomes part of the (small ‘c’) catholic church which is the Body of Christ.

To imply that one must be a member of the (large ‘C’) Catholic church in order to be saved is to imply that the Catholic Church has an ‘exclusivity’ on salvation. Salvation is a working of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man - whether inside or outside of the Catholic Church. Jesus is the one who will separate the sheep from the goats and I trust His judgment.

The Catholic Church (large ‘C’) views baptism integral to salvation rather than an act of public confession. I was baptized (Christened) as an infant but I was ‘saved’ when I was 35-years old. It was approximately 18-months after I was saved that I was baptized. My salvation was not dependent on my childhood or adult baptism. My adult baptism was simply a public confession of the decision (to believe) and verbal confession I had made 18-months earlier.

The key to the question of salvation is found in Ephesians 3:8-9 where Paul makes a very emphatic statement, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” Salvation is by faith alone - baptism is a ‘work’ but it is also an all-important public confession of that which has already happened.

Prior to ascending into Heaven Jesus gave us the Great Commission, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," These are the ‘good works’ God prepared for us to do.

 

[richardbruce]

So the answer is?

 

[glarryb]

The church will always teach that we need them for salvation. I believe there is no one between me and god. Not Mary, not anyone. This is true for all people no mater what religion. To bad the church threw away all of the old testament teachings, as in Judaism, or this topic would be clear to all. Christ teaching to love god and one another as the most important, speaks for its self. It doesn’t need to be explained to me.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think it is similar to the way the Catechism articulates the necessity of Baptism in CCC 1257:

*God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. *

The only way we know with certainty that we can be saved is by being baptized into the Catholic Church. This is the way that God has revealed to us as the ordinary way in which we can be saved.

However, since God is not bound to operate only in this way, there exists the possibility that others may be saved in some extraordinary way known to God alone.

Since we know that Jesus is the only Way to the Father and the only One who can save, and since we know that the Church is the Body of Christ on earth, we can still say that these non-Catholics who might be saved are truly saved through Christ and the Church, even if it is in a mysterious way known only to God. Christ is the One who paid the price and shed His blood. He can dispense that salvific gift any way He chooses.

Really, I find the Church’s articulation in the Catechism to be brilliant. First, it emphasizes the importance of the the Church as this ordinary way to salvation which gives us certainty. This discourages laxity in our evangelization efforts because the Church is vitally important. Second, it emphasizes God’s mercy and His ability to work outside of the means He has revealed to us. This discourages presumption in assuming we know the fate of any person’s soul. It also gives us hope that even those who have not been baptized may be counted among the elect.

So really, it gives us the best of both worlds. We cannot take a “live and let live” attitude as though the Church makes no difference. But neither can we adopt a smug, superior attitude as though we alone are going to Heaven. This teaching helps us navigate between those two opposite extremes.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense.

 

[St_Donatus]

I don’t know what the answer is but I think it is somewhere between the two extreme views. We know that Heaven will be a place of peace, love, and much more. Given that, those going to heaven must be in such a state as to be able to exist peacefully and lovingly with all their fellow heavenly beings. Give that the faithful of the Earth would in many cases rather kill each other than get along, we know that there is in fact some place were most of us will need to be purified prior to entrance into Heaven. This we know as Purgatory. It is also logically required that in order for all in Heaven to worship God with purity and perfection, they must likewise learn the Catholic faith and perhaps even more.

The way I look at it is that Salvation does truly come exclusively through the church. Only those who have a complete understanding of what God wants of us and is able to act in perfect alignment with Gods will can enter directly into Heaven. Logically, there won’t be many of us with a direct ticket. BUT those that have learned, accepted, and act on the teachings of the Catholic church will have a much easier time adjusting to Gods requirements and will spend much less time being purified and with much less anguish. (You know, the anguish in knowing that you wasted your life on materialism, false beliefs, sensuality, etc when you could have enjoyed a much more fulfilling existence.)

 

[PPT]

I’m no theologian nor cleric, but I’d like to state that one should NEVER bank their eternal salvation on mere speculation, such as “a God Who is good would never eternally condemn one to Hell for being of another faith,” etc. Would it not be wise to believe the age-old Church who, in Her wisdom, has transmitted for us here and now the FACTS of one’s eternal salvation? Would it not be in one’s best interest to obey Church teaching in its Creeds and dogmas? I, personally, am very skeptical of certain of Vatican II’s teachings (ALL non-dogmatic, by the way) concerning the re-interpretation of specific orthodox Church teachings, such as that of the teaching that “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” Cling to the dogmatic MYSTERY of the Faith!

 

[St_Donatus]

I’m no theologian nor cleric, but I’d like to state that one should NEVER bank their eternal salvation on mere speculation, such as “a God Who is good would never eternally condemn one to Hell for being of another faith,” etc. Would it not be wise to believe the age-old Church who, in Her wisdom, has transmitted for us here and now the FACTS of one’s eternal salvation? Would it not be in one’s best interest to obey Church teaching in its Creeds and dogmas? I, personally, am very skeptical of certain of Vatican II’s teachings (ALL non-dogmatic, by the way) concerning the re-interpretation of specific orthodox Church teachings, such as that of the teaching that “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” Cling to the dogmatic MYSTERY of the Faith!

PPT makes a very good point. I agree. In fact, when we try to promote ideas like “a God Who is good would never eternally condemn one to Hell for being of another faith,” trying to push the teachings of the church beyond what they actually say, we are stepping into dangerous territory.

I might add that the Bible says, the Devil and his Demons believe in God and fear him, but they don’t love and serve him. Likewise, there are those that know God but choose not to serve him. We don’t know what their future holds but if they know God and his requirements but still choose to work against him, they are doing the same as Satan did. There are even those within the Catholic church who try to promote non-Catholic teachings. They are in a sense, doing the same thing Satan does in trying to create doubt in Gods teachings he delivers through the Catholic church. In fact, many Catholics today seem to have this idea that they can accept some teachings of the church while rejecting others. Jesus was very exacting on his requirements that his followers accept everything he taught. He then gave this same authority to Peter and the apostles which was handed down to the church. The church has the power to ‘bind’ as the Bible says. If we have doubts about some minor teachings, we should keep it to ourselves or better yet, get some spiritual advise by an orthodox priest. The problem is, when we try to promote those ideas and try to change the church. Only God and his Holy Spirit have the power and authority to change the churches teachings. It is like some people think the Catholic church is a democracy. It isn’t. The teachings have been the same for 2000 years and they aren’t going to change because we don’t like one of them. Sure, God uses men to operate his Catholic church on earth, and they make mistakes but those mistakes have NEVER involved the teachings of the church. These mistakes have always been in areas outside of core beliefs.

 

[David_Harrison]

I don’t know what the answer is but I think it is somewhere between the two extreme views. We know that Heaven will be a place of peace, love, and much more. Given that, those going to heaven must be in such a state as to be able to exist peacefully and lovingly with all their fellow heavenly beings. Give that the faithful of the Earth would in many cases rather kill each other than get along, we know that there is in fact some place were most of us will need to be purified prior to entrance into Heaven. This we know as Purgatory. It is also logically required that in order for all in Heaven to worship God with purity and perfection, they must likewise learn the Catholic faith and perhaps even more.

The way I look at it is that Salvation does truly come exclusively through the church. Only those who have a complete understanding of what God wants of us and is able to act in perfect alignment with Gods will can enter directly into Heaven. Logically, there won’t be many of us with a direct ticket. BUT those that have learned, accepted, and act on the teachings of the Catholic church will have a much easier time adjusting to God’s requirements and will spend much less time being purified and with much less anguish. (You know, the anguish in knowing that you wasted your life on materialism, false beliefs, sensuality, etc when you could have enjoyed a much more fulfilling existence.)

The BIG problem with this argument and the idea (tradition) of Purgatory is that it is not found in Scripture; in fact it is completely contrary to Scripture. The Apostle Paul teaches that “…we will be changed in an instant, in the twinkling of the eye.” No time for Purgatory or anything like it! Paul repeats himself when he says, “I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.” And, from Jesus own mouth to the pennant thief, “TODAY you will be with me in paradise.”

The Bible teaches us that we are already holy, righteous and forgiven. Present tense! What I will be leaving behind is my old flesh and the* "…evil* [that] is right there with me…" Romans 7:21, behind. Praise the LORD!

 

[johndoe100]

The BIG problem with this argument and the idea (tradition) of Purgatory is that it is not found in Scripture; in fact it is completely contrary to Scripture. The Apostle Paul teaches that “…we will be changed in an instant, in the twinkling of the eye.” No time for Purgatory or anything like it! Paul repeats himself when he says, “I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.” And, from Jesus own mouth to the pennant thief, “TODAY you will be with me in paradise.”

The Bible teaches us that we are already holy, righteous and forgiven. Present tense! What I will be leaving behind is my old flesh and the* "…evil* [that] is right there with me…" Romans 7:21, behind. Praise the LORD!

I like the Protestant view on this, but I still go to Confession on Saturday and partake in the Euharist on Sunday mornings. Just in case we Catholics have been doing it right for centuries.

 

[tokharian]

It is my understanding that the word “Catholic” means the basic, universal faith, not any one branch of it. Why would someone have to be Roman Catholic to be saved? It’s a fine faith, but there are other varieties of Christianity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(Christian_terminology

 

[niknak989]

All you have to is read Romans chapter 10…and read it word for word. It is just plain as day to me at least.

I think we make things way to complicated. For we are a simple simple people. God knows this…why? Well…He’s God, The Father, The Almighty, Creator of all things.

We have to remember "It’s not about the religion…It is about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Going to Church is not going to get us into Heaven any more than going to McDonalds is gonna get us a hamburger.

It says in Romans that “Whether Greek, Gentile, or Jew, that whoever confesses with his mouth that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the dead, that they would be saved” Thats good enough for me.

All we have to do is believe…Believe.

Grace and Peace, Nicholas