Salvation outside the church

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A sincere faithful Catholic friend posed this question to me and I’d like some clear, cogent responses to his inquiry:

This has been bothering me for the last few years and I’ve come to a point where I really need someone to give me a clear answer.​

On the subject of the absolute necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation, there is, first of all, the Athanasian Creed, which begins: “Whoever wishes to be saved must, first of all, hold the Catholic faith, which, unless a man shall have held it whole and inviolate, he will most certainly perish forever.” This is not only a Creed of the Catholic Church that one must believe to be Catholic, but the Athanasian Creed was also part of the Church’s public liturgy. Before Vatican II, it was recited at the Office of Prime on Trinity Sunday.

As for the doctrine “Out-side the Church there is no salvation,” it has been three times defined by the Catholic Church. The most explicit and forceful of these three ex cathedra pronouncements is from the Council of Florence under Pope Eugene IV. Here the Church declared infallibly:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, February 4, 1442]

This truth is taught repeatedly by the Popes, Saints and holy Doctors throughout the centuries. There is no deviation from one Pope to the next. It is one unchanging doctrine taught from Apostolic times. In fact, according to the perennial teaching of the Church, the dogmatic First Vatican Council, and the Oath Against Modernism, a Pope is not allowed to change any of the doctrines of the Church, since the they are not his to change. Nor is it possible for a Pope to change an objective truth divinely revealed by God. Nor is a Pope allowed to explain doctrine in a manner differently from what the Church always held. To use the words of Vatican I, “The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding.” [Vatican I, Session III, Chap. IV, Dei Filius] Vatican I’s Dei Filius says clearly, “let therefore the understanding, the knowledge and the wisdom of individual men, and of all men of one man, and of the entire Church, grow and advance greatly and powerfully, over the course of the years and the ages, but only in its own class, in the same dogma, with the same meaning and in the same explanation.” The Oath Against Modernism brings out the same truth. The man who takes this Oath makes the following promise, “I sincerely receive the doctrine of faith handed down to us from the Apostles through the orthodox Fathers, with the same meaning and the same explanation (eodem sensu eademque sententia); and consequently I completely reject the heretical fiction of an evolution of dogma, changing from one meaning to another, different from that which the Church first held.”

For nearly 2000 years, the Popes taught the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation” faithfully, as they knew it to be a truth received from Christ and the Apostles. One of the many 20th Century examples of the continuity of this teaching is found in The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X. Here we read, “Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics and excommunicated persons.” It states further, “No one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church."​

On the other hand we have the 1997 Catechism quoting Pius XI’s Vatican II document Lumen-Gentium:​

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race … His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.

846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”​

The wording here is needlessly vague, evasive even. “The plan of salvation also includes…” “saving designs extend to all…” “may achieve eternal salvation.” - Plans and designs of salvation? Does that mean salvation is found in their current situation or that it’s leading them to a necessary next step? May achieve? How? By eventually coming to conversion, or is it ok to continue in ignorance of Christ? It spends 10 paragraphs answering a yes or no question that it never actually puts in words, and in standard political fashion it leaves you unsure what the answer was. A book like the Catechism should be as clear as possible on the teachings of the Church, especially those that relate to essential conditions of salvation. This strikes me as intentionally avoiding giving a clear answer for fear of being unpopular. Furthermore, Lumen Gentium is not an infallible document and, considering what was quoted from Vatican I about not reinterpreting dogma, “Re-formulated positively” is an awful phrase that should never appear in a Catechism.

Ambiguous wording aside, the Church by and large has been propagating this idea that you don’t need to be Catholic to go to Heaven ever since Vatican II. Now, I’m aware of the modernist leaning - and indeed Masonic infiltration - of much of the hierarchy today. I’d have no problem dismissing the current version of the Catechism as invalid, as the 1966 Dutch Catechism that preceded it was eventually declared, or accepting that JPII willingly or unwillingly spread error, or heck, even that he was an open heretic (his opinion that the Old Covenant was not superseded by the new was plainly an error). My real dilemma is that I don’t want to believe this dogma. It’s difficult to reconcile with the idea of a god who is love incarnate. It doesn’t seem fair that a teenager born to a Muslim family in Nigeria who’s killed by his parents under Sharia law before he has a chance to encounter Christ should automatically go to Hell, or even that the Protestants we live with who probably have even less of an idea of what the Catholic Church teaches than we do and have never heard a convincing word in its favor are doomed because their great, great, great, great grandparents were self-delusional heretics who followed Luther and because we’ve been poor evangelists. So this is a plea for someone to help me understand, either by pointing out how the Vatican II party line is reconcilable with the preceding dogma or explaining this whole thing better. I know I’m not the only one who’s been confused by this.
The Church is the body of Christ formed of those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

I’m going to cite two scriptures. The first one is John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That’s John 3:16.

The second one is John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
 
The BIG problem with this argument and the idea (tradition) of Purgatory is that it is not found in Scripture; in fact it is completely contrary to Scripture. The Apostle Paul teaches that “…we will be changed in an instant, in the twinkling of the eye.” No time for Purgatory or anything like it! Paul repeats himself when he says, “I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.” And, from Jesus own mouth to the pennant thief, “TODAY you will be with me in paradise.”

The Bible teaches us that we are already holy, righteous and forgiven. Present tense! What I will be leaving behind is my old flesh and the* "…evil* [that] is right there with me…" Romans 7:21, behind. Praise the LORD!
So you are saying that it is very simple, you either go to heaven or hell. If you are a sinful but repentant person, you still go directly to Heaven. You can get in arguments with others, lie, or whatever else, because you were just faithful enough to make it to Heaven. How can someone be perfect in heaven if their personality has big flaws in it? How can Heaven be perfect with people in it that still have these flaws? Or would you say that these are automatically removed from them. Well then, what is the point. Why become a better person when God will do it for me when I am saved.

As far as scripture go:
In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).

The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man’s works.
 
I, too, struggle with this question. I’m all ears to anyone who can explain it.
The simple answer, as I understand the Bible to teach, is that we are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ [Acts 16:31; 1 Cor. 15:1-4]. Then we are baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe and we are sealed by this same Holy Spirit until the redemption of our body [1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13]. The church, through the pastor/teacher is then to train and equip us [by teaching us Bible doctrine] to “do the work of the ministry” [Eph. 4:11-15]. Thus, every believer is to become an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ [2 Cor. 5:20].

Grace and Peace,
QC
 
Those who profess faith in Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Savior, and are charitable
And good, will enter heaven. This includes those who, if they are not aware of Christ, sincerely wish Someone like Him existed. This also goes, I think, for those that, for example, live in Muslim societies and are aware of Christianity, and think along the lines of, “Islam is so damning. I wish Islam wasn’t the true religion and Christianity was.”

Not included in this category are those who are just “trying to be a good person” (what morally ambiguous person hasn’t claimed that for themselves?), that believe no savior
Is necessary, and certainly those who believe they can work out their own salvation trough their own great merits and skills.

What happens to those souls is between them and God. Since they have denied need of a savior, they are on their own. I pray for their conversion so that I can know they are saved.
 
All you have to is read Romans chapter 10…and read it word for word. It is just plain as day to me at least.

I think we make things way to complicated. For we are a simple simple people. God knows this…why? Well…He’s God, The Father, The Almighty, Creator of all things.

We have to remember "It’s not about the religion…It is about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Going to Church is not going to get us into Heaven any more than going to McDonalds is gonna get us a hamburger.

It says in Romans that “Whether Greek, Gentile, or Jew, that whoever confesses with his mouth that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the dead, that they would be saved” Thats good enough for me.

All we have to do is believe…Believe.

Grace and Peace, Nicholas
Wow, I guess I have been missing out. I guess I need to get out there and have some fun. Have some big time fornication, do some great drugs, as long as I don’t hurt any, but I do believe. Satan believes and shudders. If that was all I needed to know, why did Jesus bother with all the other information he gave his disciples and they passed on to us?

God expects more from his people than other religions, that is most of the message Jesus gave. We need to love our neighbor and treat them as we would want to be treated, we need to follow him no matter what the cost to us is, we need to put away sin, etc. He only forgave those that sinned such as the woman at the well, after she repented and chose to change her lifestyle. Yes, much more is involved and many Christians have lost their lives in order to spread the message Jesus gave.
 
The Church is the body of Christ formed of those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

I’m going to cite two scriptures. The first one is John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That’s John 3:16.

The second one is John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
Our Lord also said this,
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)
which means,
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
And, this guy,
“And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.” (Philippians 4:3)
who wrote,
1Clem 42:1 - The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God.
1Clem 42:2 - So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.
1Clem 42:3 - Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come.
1Clem 42:4 - So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.
1Clem 44:1 - And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop’s office.
1Clem 58:2 - Receive our counsel, and ye shall have no occasion of regret. For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, who with lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of them that are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.
1Clem 59:1 - But if certain persons should be disobedient unto the words spoken by Him through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger;
 
We seem to have a lot of Protestant trolls lurking about trying to preach to us here it seems. Yes, the basic Protestant message ‘All you need to do is believe that Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your savior.’. I did that when I became a Protestant but after studying Jesus teachings I discovered that this acceptance of him and his salvation requires actions and obedience. But that is too hard. That requires effort and change on my part. Just accepting Jesus as my lord and savior doesn’t require any change.

Remember what Jesus told the rich man when he said he was doing all the commandments that Jesus required, Jesus said that in addition he would need to give away all his wealth and follow him. Yes we must be willing to give up every selfish motive we have and follow Jesus Christ.

So, I think there is more involved in being saved than just believing and living a good life. We must give ourselves totally over to God. Once we do that and our selfish desires or replaced with the desire to do Gods will, sin is far from us.

How did people learn about Jesus Christ and his requirements prior to the printing press and Bibles were affordable (around 1800)?
The answer is they learned it from the Catholic church.
Where did the Bible come from? The Catholic church put it together around the year 400.
Yes, if there wasn’t a Catholic Church, Luther would never have learned about Jesus in the first place. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, the Protestants would never even have a Bible to try to use against the Catholic Church. It is funny that it is a book that the Catholic Church compiled that Protestants try to use against it.
 
Our Lord also said this,

which means,

And, this guy,

who wrote,
Jehannette,

I really appreciate all the work you are doing with the Scriptures and so forth. Great job. Obviously you have a very good knowledge of the Bible. Thank you for your efforts.
 
I like the Protestant view on this, but I still go to Confession on Saturday and partake in the Eucharist on Sunday mornings. Just in case we Catholics have been doing it right for centuries. 🙂
“Confess your sins to one another.” “Do this in remembrance of me.” That’s doing it right. I think it would please our Lord if more of us did! Amen?
 
I think we are co-mingling two separate, but related, issues. The work of the Holy Spirit does NOT mean that a person can just believe, be saved, and then keep leading an evil life. That’s not what Protestantism teaches. But living a holy life is not salvation, nor the cause of salvation. It is definitely supposed to result from salvation. But we still have a tendency to get distracted, be weak, and sin. Can one lose one’s salvation this way? Even the Protestants don’t agree. There is a wide variety of opinions on this matter, far too wide for us to settle it here tonight.

No Protestant would deny that we are called to obey God’s commandments. The view is that by “abolishing the law” or “fulfilling the law,” that the system of behavioral rules and our adherence to them is not the cause of our healed relationship with God. Not that we should abandon good behavior.

Just as Catholicism doesn’t teach that certain devotional rituals are a substitute for authentic spiritual conversion. That’s not what they teach.

I would hope that we can veer away from the precipice of straw men battles. The original question was, I believe, something along the line of whether there is salvation outside of a particular Christian denomination - in this case, the Catholic (I assume they meant Roman Catholic) church.
 
After reading this entire thread is seems that no one knows the correct answer. Pick a possible answer to the originally posed question and you can find it here.

I was taught in Catholic School that there was no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and the Nuns and Priests were adamant about it. It seems to me that now that the Church is not the feared tyrant it once was that it is constantly rephrasing its teachings so as to avoid offending anyone for fear of losing membership and recruitment power. Membership means income, income means money and its all about the money.
 
I would hope that we can veer away from the precipice of straw men battles. The original question was, I believe, something along the line of whether there is salvation outside of a particular Christian denomination - in this case, the Catholic (I assume they meant Roman Catholic) church.
Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith. (Humani Generis, 27)
 
We seem to have a lot of Protestant trolls lurking about trying to preach to us here it seems. Yes, the basic Protestant message ‘All you need to do is believe that Jesus died for your sins and accept him as your Savior.’. I did that when I became a Protestant but after studying Jesus teachings I discovered that this acceptance of him and his salvation requires actions and obedience. But that is too hard. That requires effort and change on my part. Just accepting Jesus as my lord and Savior doesn’t require any change.

Remember what Jesus told the rich man when he said he was doing all the commandments that Jesus required, Jesus said that in addition he would need to give away all his wealth and follow him. Yes we must be willing to give up every selfish motive we have and follow Jesus Christ.

So, I think there is more involved in being saved than just believing and living a good life. We must give ourselves totally over to God. Once we do that and our selfish desires or replaced with the desire to do Gods will, sin is far from us.

How did people learn about Jesus Christ and his requirements prior to the printing press and Bibles were affordable (around 1800)?
The answer is they learned it from the Catholic church.
Where did the Bible come from? The Catholic church put it together around the year 400.
Yes, if there wasn’t a Catholic Church, Luther would never have learned about Jesus in the first place. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, the Protestants would never even have a Bible to try to use against the Catholic Church. It is funny that it is a book that the Catholic Church compiled that Protestants try to use against it.
I don’t think I’m a Protestant troll but neither am I a Catholic. I am, quite simply, a disciple of Christ. Having meditated heavily on the meaning of grace and how God bestows it I am absolutely convinced it is by faith alone that one is saved. There is nothing I have found in all of Scripture that says otherwise - nor did Luther. Yet, I cannot help but agree with you that, the outcome of (or response to) our salvation does require action and obedience. “If you love me you will obey my commands.” Jesus said. Our good works are the response - not the cause.

Concerning the compiling of the Bible, it happened well before the 400’s. When the Catholic church held the initial conference it was to validate the [canon] of Scripture which was already in place. To learn more about how the Holy Bible came into being I highly recommend A book to die for by William McRae. It provides a wealth of information.
 
And here a lot of people are going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. The idea that Christianity=Roman Catholicism is not going to go over well with a whole lot of people. They will say that there was Christianity before Roman Catholicism took on its recognizable form, and what about the Eastern Orthodox, etc. etc. Certainly there is a lot present in all modern expressions of faith that would not be recognizable or pleasing to an early Christian.
 
After reading this entire thread is seems that no one knows the correct answer. Pick a possible answer to the originally posed question and you can find it here.

I was taught in Catholic School that there was no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and the Nuns and Priests were adamant about it. It seems to me that now that the Church is not the feared tyrant it once was that it is constantly rephrasing its teachings so as to avoid offending anyone for fear of losing membership and recruitment power. Membership means income, income means money and its all about the money.
Perhaps a carrot instead of a stick? The Church’s current strategy is “Good Cop/Bad Cop”. Nothing’s changed, as far as Magisterial teaching is concerned:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsistit_in

Consider what Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, said about one of his predecessor’s catechisms:
The faith, as such, is always the same. Therefore, St. Pius X’s catechism always retains its value, … There can be persons or groups that feel more comfortable with St. Pius X’s catechism. … that Catechism stemmed from a text that was prepared by the Pope himself [Pius X] when he was Bishop of Mantua. The text was the fruit of the personal catechetical experience of Giuseppe Sarto, whose characteristics were simplicity of exposition and depth of content. Also because of this, St. Pius X’s catechism might have friends in the future.”
 
And here a lot of people are going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. The idea that Christianity=Roman Catholicism is not going to go over well with a whole lot of people. They will say that there was Christianity before Roman Catholicism took on its recognizable form, and what about the Eastern Orthodox, etc. etc. Certainly there is a lot present in all modern expressions of faith that would not be recognizable or pleasing to an early Christian.
How effective would the US military be if the various branches, even groups fought amongst themselves, fought their own battles without any coordination. That spells immediate failure for any military. Yet we are to believe that this is how God runs his people on Earth. Not even the Bible says that. At Matthew 16:13 to 20 Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom in order to guide his people on Earth. Again in John 21:15 - 17, Jesus emphasizes this. Yet those that disagree with some Catholic teaching try to find some explanation around these scriptures so they can believe what they want to. So until the 1500s, there was one Christian organization in the world and it was the ONLY place the millions on earth could learn about Jesus Christ. Are we to believe that God used a false religion as the only source of truth. Remember, most had no access to a Bible because they were too expensive to hand write. The Catholic Church was the ONLY way the average man could gain knowledge about Jesus Christ. It was also the organization that brought us the Bible. But Protestants didn’t like the rules, so they used the Catholic Bible to make religions that they liked better. They know better than the one organization God used for 1500 years and brought the Bible to us through.

I was a Protestant and after reading the teachings of the Bible and what the early Christians taught, it is obvious that the Catholic church is teaching the same thing. It doesn’t matter what I think, what I want to believe, it only matters what organization God used to spread his truth about Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years because it is guided by Holy Spirit. We see Protestant churches constantly changing this beleif and splitting with each other because their teachings are those of men rather than God. Why was their one Catholic Church until 1500 and now there are an estimate 35,000 different Christian religions. Satan is dividing Gods military force to fight against each other rather than to fight the true enemy.

But he is only dividing the Protestants because the Catholic church is still the largest single religion in the world. Put all the Protestant denominations together, and they don’t make up a fraction of the size of the Catholic church. No, the gates of Hell have not prevailed against his church and never will.
 
I never said the Catholic church was a false religion. Please don’t put words in my mouth. What I said was that it is one form of Christianity, but that there are also other ways to be Christian.

A lot of people throughout history have objected to some things about the Catholic Church. That doesn’t make Catholicism unchristian. At times, the Catholic church has seemed to be dovetailed with the government (such as during the Inquisition). This has nothing to do with whether the basic doctrines are true or not, just a common pitfall of having a lot of power. There was recently a ghastly example of a church flexing its muscle over common people right here in the US - in Utah. heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/neighborhood-chair-drops-mtc-fight-after-letter-from-church/article_dba7b325-5c70-566f-b6af-96c523e1ff84.html

No one denies that the Catholic church operated many charitable institutions, schools, hospitals and the like at a time when it was perhaps the only entity taking an interest in these activities. No one denies the faith and sincerity of the religious people within it. But the Reformation is over, and any point that needed to be made is now history.
 
After reading this entire thread is seems that no one knows the correct answer. Pick a possible answer to the originally posed question and you can find it here.

I was taught in Catholic School that there was no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and the Nuns and Priests were adamant about it. It seems to me that now that the Church is not the feared tyrant it once was that it is constantly rephrasing its teachings so as to avoid offending anyone for fear of losing membership and recruitment power. Membership means income, income means money and its all about the money.
Well, actually, the point of my post is that the Church’s teaching on on salvation outside of the church has not changed with Vatican II and post-conciliar documents as I illustrated by showing the same teachings in pre-conciliar documents.

Regarding your other claims about the Church, as Voltaire once said “How do you refute a sneer.”
 
Well, actually, the point of my post is that the Church’s teaching on on salvation outside of the church has not changed with Vatican II and post-conciliar documents as I illustrated by showing the same teachings in pre-conciliar documents.

Regarding your other claims about the Church, as Voltaire once said “How do you refute a sneer.”
I think your point was well made and proven. We do know the truth about this issue and thank you for your efforts. Just like with the Bible, people try to make the church’s teachings fit their own beliefs.
 
There was a priest in the 50s / early 60s (I think) who wrote a book, “Fish on Fridays”.
He was a dynamic teacher and brought a lot of people back to the church and was a big hand in many conversions. Very very popular in the Northeast.

My understanding is (someone correct me if I am wrong!!!) he was more than adament that one must be a practicing Roman Catholic to be saved. He stuck to this like stink on sulfer. Eventually, after many warnings he was disciplined severly.

I know the Catechism is very clear on this. One must be a Catholic to be saved. But following this paragraph the catechism goes on to explain what a Catholic is. You will discover with little reading that it is no necesry to be a Practicing Roman Catholic to be saved; albeit, it will be difficult.

Read the Catechism, the early 300 paragraphs. It IS an easy read. Note:
Baptism of Desire
Baptism of Blood
Baptism of Water
This will rest your soul.
 
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