Salvation outside the church

[Jehannette]

Right. Paragraph 1250 is addressing the question of whether children should be baptized. They should. This doesn’t prove your point.

To steal a movie line: I don’t think this means what you think it means…

In fact, I don’t think it helps your case at all! Let’s take a look what’s going on, here…

Pelagianism had argued against original sin; in doing so, it had to address the notion of infant baptism (after all, if original sin is a defective doctrine, then why baptize babies?). The claim, then, was that unbaptized children might not belong to the Kingdom of God, but they certainly had eternal life. Augustine, on the other hand, since he was defending original sin, was forced to conclude that Pelagian ‘eternal life’ was invalid; therefore, he was forced to conclude that given the choice between heaven and hell, unbaptized children went to hell.

The Scholastics, however, found middle ground: unbaptized infants had no personal sin, and therefore, although they don’t attain heaven, they know no punishment; they’re blissfully unaware – they’re in limbo.

Jansenists, however, hated that conclusion: they asserted that any teaching of Limbo was a teaching for Pelagianism.

Augustinians defended their patron, and popes agreed – the Augustinian denial of limbo was orthodox (that is to say, there’s only ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ as final states). However, the Jansenist view that limbo implies Pelagianism was likewise invalid. That’s all that Pius VI was saying here: “it’s incorrect to say ‘limbo equals Pelagianism’, so don’t teach that!”.

So, it’s not that Pius VI was either condemning or affirming the existence of Limbo: rather, he was simply correcting the Jansenist teachings, among which was the notion that the denial of the punishment of fire (i.e., the teaching of limbo) was inherently Pelagian.

Umm… so, let’s see – when it’s something that you agree with, then there’s no such thing as a ‘null set’; but, when it’s something that you don’t agree with, then you’re willing to posit that it’s a ‘null set’…? Yeah… riiiiiight!

Here’s that quote from Saint Thomas again:

As stated above (Article 6), Christ’s descent into hell had its effect of deliverance on them only who through faith and charity were united to Christ’s Passion, in virtue whereof Christ’s descent into hell was one of deliverance. But the children who had died in original sin were in no way united to Christ’s Passion by faith and love: for, not having the use of free will, they could have no faith of their own; nor were they cleansed from original sin either by their parents’ faith or by any sacrament of faith. Consequently, Christ’s descent into hell did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy Fathers were delivered from hell by being admitted to the glory of the vision of God, to which no one can come except through grace; according to Romans 6:23: “The grace of God is life everlasting.” Therefore, since children dying in original sin had no grace, they were not delivered from hell. (Summa Theologica III, q.52, a.7)

No one ever has challenged Saint Thomas’ statement, not the Catechism, nor anyone else, so far as I can tell. Indeed, the Catechism references the declaration made at the Council of Florence:

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons.

And, no, I do not believe that Pope Eugene IV was defining the existence of a “null set.” The Council of Florence while at Basel stated:

By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools.

Likewise, I do not believe that the Catechism is teaching about the existence of “null sets” either:

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

Neither is the Catechism teaching universal salvation:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

So, clearly, the teaching of the Church is that there are souls who end this life “in original sin alone.”

 

[PRmerger]

Forgiveness could, perhaps, be obtained at “death’s door.” As for children who die without sacramental Baptism, at least some are forever excluded from Heaven, although, there may be some exceptions.

Indeed there are. Lots of exceptions.

And our Church gives them their own feast day on our liturgical calendar, celebrating the fact that they are in heaven. .

And several cities even have churches and parishes named after these souls who are in heaven.

 

[Jehannette]

Indeed there are. Lots of exceptions.

And our Church gives them their own feast day on our liturgical calendar, celebrating the fact that they are in heaven. .

And several cities even have churches and parishes named after these souls who are in heaven.

Indeed, they are in Heaven, having been martyred for Christ. No one doubts that. However, let’s review what Pius VI taught us in Auctorem Fidei. But first, the promise which the Holy Spirit has made to the Catholic Church alone:

Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. (Pastor Aeternus, First Vatican Council)

Now, Auctorem Fidei:

“The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name Limbo of the Children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of fire, just as if by this very fact, that those who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state, free of guilt and punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk: Condemned as false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.”

Note the tense of the Pope’s verb “departing.” If I say, “I am riding my bike,” what does that mean? Do not I mean that I am riding a bicycle? Unless I am lying, I could only mean what I say, that is, I am riding a bike. If I “text” that message to you, you can be assured that I am riding a bike, especially, if you receive my message within a minute or two of me sending it. At least you can be assured that I was riding a bike, unless, of course, I am lying.

The same is true of what Pope Pius VI declared – not all children who end this life without sacramental Baptism in Water will go to Heaven. Some will (and have) go to Heaven, such as those who were martyred for Christ; others will be excluded from Heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

The same is true of what Pope Pius VI declared – **not all children who end this life without sacramental Baptism in Water will go to Heaven. ** Some will (and have) go to Heaven, such as those who were martyred for Christ; others will be excluded from Heaven.

Ah. Very good, then.

It appears that you are arguing against something that I haven’t seen presented here.

But I’ve been only skimming the thread so perhaps I missed it.

Are you proposing that there are those here who claim that “all children who end this life without sacramental Baptism in Water will go to heaven”?

 

[triumphguy]

For Church teaching I think it’s best to read the latest encyclicals and teachings of the Church.

These summarize and consolidate **all **previous teaching.

Basically:

• Salvation is FOR all people, and ALL people have hope of salvation.
• All human reason can lead to God.
• All religions can point to God.
• All men and women who through their reason or faith are aligned towards God will be saved.

Why bother being Catholic then?

• Because we get the privilege of being servants at the Lords feast.
• We get to wait on the Lord’s table
• We get to go out to the hedgerows and ditches and invite the people on the margins to the wedding feast
• We get to proclaim the fullness of the Truth
• We get to receive Christ in the Eucharist

 

[PRmerger]

For Church teaching I think it’s best to read the latest encyclicals and teachings of the Church.

These summarize and consolidate **all **previous teaching.

Basically:

• Salvation is FOR all people, and ALL people have hope of salvation.
• All human reason can lead to God.
• All religions can point to God.
• All men and women who through their reason or faith are aligned towards God will be saved.

Except for this correction: All men and women who through their reason or faith are aligned towards God -]will be /-] may be saved

 

[triumphguy]

Except for this correction: All men and women who through their reason or faith are aligned towards God -]will be /-] may be saved

Only because we as humans cannot say what God WILL do, but we can have a sure hope that God’s mercy will prevail.

In the same way we can’t say that being Catholic is a certainty for salvation either.

It comes down to our desire to be one with God.

 

[Corso]

Only because we as humans cannot say what God WILL do, but we can have a sure hope that God’s mercy will prevail.

In the same way we can’t say that being Catholic is a certainty for salvation either.

It comes down to our desire to be one with God.

 

[Jehannette]

For Church teaching I think it’s best to read the latest encyclicals and teachings of the Church.

These summarize and consolidate **all **previous teaching.

Basically:

• Salvation is FOR all people, and ALL people have hope of salvation.
• All human reason can lead to God.
• All religions can point to God.
• All men and women who through their reason or faith are aligned towards God will be saved.

Why bother being Catholic then?

• Because we get the privilege of being servants at the Lords feast.
• We get to wait on the Lord’s table
• We get to go out to the hedgerows and ditches and invite the people on the margins to the wedding feast
• We get to proclaim the fullness of the Truth
• We get to receive Christ in the Eucharist

Condemned error: “A faith indicated from the testimony of creation, or from a similar motive, suffices for justification” (Denz. 2123, Pope Innocent XI, 1679).

To be saved, one must have a divine faith:

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8, ex cathedra: “But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons;…”

 

[PRmerger]

Only because we as humans cannot say what God WILL do, but we can have a sure hope that God’s mercy will prevail.

In the same way we can’t say that being Catholic is a certainty for salvation either.

It comes down to our desire to be one with God.

Desire, though, is not enough.

 

[triumphguy]

Fr. Dwight Longenecker: Are All Other Religions Simply Wrong?

What then, is the Catholic attitude towards the followers of other religions? We accept them as fellow human beings and we respect their religious faith and we seek to understand and appreciate all that is beautiful, good and true in their religion. We also wish to share the fullness of the Christian faith with them–not obliterating their culture and religion, but allowing it to be fulfilled and completed in the belief and practice of Christianity. In this process we do not wish to impose anything on anyone. We propose we do not impose. Neither do we condemn anyone to hell. No Catholic–not even the pope–can pronounce judgement on anyone’s eternal soul. That is God’s job. This allows us, therefore, to be perfectly tolerant and accepting of all. patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/08/are-all-other-religions-wrong.html

 

[triumphguy]

Desire, though, is not enough.

You’re Catholic. You commit a mortal sin. You get hit by a truck on the way to confession. You are dying in the road. You desire to be one with God despite your sin. This is evidenced by your contrition. You die. You got to heaven.

You are Muslim. Illiterate. Poor. 15. Male. Told by those who interpret your religion that if you die a martyr you go to heaven. Your only desire is to be one with God. You agree to become a suicide bomber believing you will go to Heaven…

You are an atheist, brought up by atheists to believe that all religions are superstitious. You enjoy going out to the mountains or the wilderness because you feel a desire for “more,” your life is a desire for truth. You live a moral life based on the truth you have uncovered.

St. Augustine would say that desire is everything:

"Thou hast made us for Thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee” (Confessions, Chapter 1)

Augustine desired God, but sought Him through lesser “truths.” His desire was not fulfilled, which kept him seeking more.

*Late have I loved you,
O Beauty ever ancient, ever new,
late have I loved you!

You were within me, but I was outside,
and it was there that I searched for you.
In my unloveliness I plunged into the lovely things which you created.

You were with me, but I was not with you.
Created things kept me from you;
yet if they had not been in you they would not have been at all.

You called, you shouted, and you broke through my deafness.
You flashed, you shone, and you dispelled my blindness.
You breathed your fragrance on me;
I drew in breath and now I pant for you.

I have tasted you, now I hunger and thirst for more.
You touched me, and I burned for your peace.*

 

[PRmerger]

You’re Catholic. You commit a mortal sin. You get hit by a truck on the way to confession. You are dying in the road. You desire to be one with God despite your sin. This is evidenced by your contrition. You die. You got to heaven.

One can hope.

But you cannot say: “You die. You go to heaven.”

No Catholic ought to be proclaiming that.

You are Muslim. Illiterate. Poor. 15. Male. Told by those who interpret your religion that if you die a martyr you go to heaven. Your only desire is to be one with God. You agree to become a suicide bomber believing you will go to Heaven…

And???

You are an atheist, brought up by atheists to believe that all religions are superstitious. You enjoy gong out to the mountains or the wilderness because you feel a desire for “more,” your life is a desire for truth. You live a moral life based on the truth you have uncovered.

Okay…

St. Augustine would say that desire is everything:

Desire without truth would be blind; truth without desire would be like “a clanging cymbal” (I Cor 13:1).

 

[Jehannette]

You’re Catholic. You commit a mortal sin. You get hit by a truck on the way to confession. You are dying in the road. You desire to be one with God despite your sin. This is evidenced by your contrition. You die. You got to heaven.

You are Muslim. Illiterate. Poor. 15. Male. Told by those who interpret your religion that if you die a martyr you go to heaven. Your only desire is to be one with God. You agree to become a suicide bomber believing you will go to Heaven…

You are an atheist, brought up by atheists to believe that all religions are superstitious. You enjoy gong out to the mountains or the wilderness because you feel a desire for “more,” your life is a desire for truth. You live a moral life based on the truth you have uncovered.

St. Augustine would say that desire is everything:

Augustine desired God, but sought Him through lesser “truths.” His desire was not fulfilled, which kept him seeking more.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

II. THE ACTS OF THE PENITENT

1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.”

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.”

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

 

[triumphguy]

One can hope.

But you cannot say: “You die. You go to heaven.”

No Catholic ought to be proclaiming that.

And???

Okay…

Desire without truth would be blind; truth without desire would be like “a clanging cymbal” (I Cor 13:1).

You can. It’s Catholic teaching. If you die in mortal sin, but have contrition and have tried/are trying to get to confession then the Church teaches that the person is forgiven.

And if that is all you hear are the clashing cymbals but still seek God then who are we to say the person is not saved?

 

[PRmerger]

You can. It’s Catholic teaching. If you die in mortal sin, but have contrition and have tried/are trying to get to confession then the Church teaches that the person is forgiven.

Perfect contrition.

That’s the clincher.

And if that is all you hear are the clashing cymbals but still seek God then who are we to say the person is not saved?

I don’t believe anyone here is proclaiming that they’re “not saved”.

I know that I haven’t. I’ve been saying that we can’t know for certain. We can hope.

But love, desire, sincerity, without Truth, isn’t enough.

 

[triumphguy]

Perfect contrition.

That’s the clincher.

I don’t believe anyone here is proclaiming that they’re “not saved”.

I know that I haven’t. I’ve been saying that we can’t know for certain. We can hope.

But love, desire, sincerity, without Truth, isn’t enough.

Everything we do is based on hope. There is no certainty for any of us.

But we are basing our Hope on God’s Mercy.

Like an old Franciscan priest told me once:

“Believe everyone else is saved. Don’t count on it for yourself.”

Basically he was saying worry about your own salvation, not anyone else’s… except in so far as you can help them reach salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Everything we do is based on hope. There is no certainty for any of us.

But we are basing our Hope on God’s Mercy.

Like an old Franciscan priest told me once:

“Believe everyone else is saved. Don’t count on it for yourself.”

Basically he was saying worry about your own salvation, not anyone else’s… except in so far as you can help them reach salvation.

My favorite response to the question “Is [fill in the blank] saved?” is…

Strive to enter.

 

[triumphguy]

this threads taken you over 15,000 posts!

 

[PRmerger]

this threads taken you over 15,000 posts!

This is what everyone else thinks about that:

whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/24658298497/when-someone-gets-called-out-for-a-humble-brag