Salvation outside the church

[GerardP]

Pius XII:

“An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism.”
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

1. That simply does not rise ot the level of an infallible decree. It was an allocution to midwives and is therefore not infallible.

Pope Eugene is binding the whole Church in a Council.

***“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches…” ***

That is infallible teaching.

1. There is no indication that God will not supply the waters of Baptism extraoridinarily along with the sanctifying grace. Since God is no liar.

Hence, the Pius X catechism uses terms like “on the way of salvation” and Vatican II uses the vague terms “means of salvation” without making the distinction between primary and secondary means.

Primary (the Church)

Secondary (something leading to the primary means)

 

[GerardP]

I don’t know Gerard, often in this crazy world we live people try to rationalize things instead of being obedient. I thank Almight God that I am a Catholic and pray that my Brother in Law will accept the truth.

I’ll put him on my intentions list along with a host of other friends and relatives that don’t accept what God has revealed.

I think it has to do with the influence of modernism and attitudes that Catholicism is “soft” and “flexible” instead of a solid set of truths that build a bridge to Heaven. The only bridge to Heaven.

St. Michael’s name means “who is like God?” The lesson is, don’t bother to question what God has revealed. We don’t want to behave like Abraham willing to offer Isaac. God will keep His promises. Don’t question Him, just believe in Him.

 

[SFD]

Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Singulari Quidem):

Dz.1647 For, it MUST be held BY FAITH that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. (Denzinger)

Blessed Pius IX (Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

Dz.1677 And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life [see n. 1717]. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of PETER, to whom “the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,” * cannot obtain eternal salvation. (Denzinger)

It is important to remember that these statements about invincible ignorance are not exceptions to the dogma. This dogma is very clearly stated (shown in red) in both of these statements from Pope Pius IX. Both of these quotes are found in Denzinger (Dz.1647 and 1677) under the heading of Indifferentism. Also see Dz. 1678 which says, in part:

“and they should especially endeavor to snatch them from the darkness of error in which they unhappily lie, and lead them back to Catholic truth and to the most loving Mother the Church, who never ceases to stretch out Her maternal hands lovingly to them, and call them back to her bosom so that, established and firm in faith, hope, and charity, and “being fruitful in every work” [Col. 1:10]
, they may attain eternal salvation.”

SFD

 

[inchrist101]

The Church’s teaching is that if you, through not fault of your own (e.g. invincible ignorance) do not come into the Catholic Church then you still have the possibility of obtaining salvation. However, if you choose not to come into the Church after you have sufficient knowledge, not to mention grace, to realize it is the Church founded by Christ, then you are placing your soul in danger of hell. The same thing can be said of Catholics who leave, whether physically or spiritually, the Church.

That teaching is flat out wrong, shallow and judgemental. Come to our church and see the wonderful things GOD is doing, then tell those people they are in danger of going to hell if they don’t join the Roman Catholic church. We’re a simple non-denom church but man is GOD doing amazing things there.

 

[GerardP]

That teaching is flat out wrong, shallow and judgemental. Come to our church and see the wonderful things GOD is doing, then tell those people they are in danger of going to hell if they don’t join the Roman Catholic church. We’re a simple non-denom church but man is GOD doing amazing things there.

How do you know it’s God doing those wonderful things?

 

[inchrist101]

How do you know it’s God doing those wonderful things?

Who else would it be. We had a young woman with throat cancer who was supposed to die. We prayed for her and now she is in remission. Over the last 2 years we have baptized 586 people who are new believers to Christ. We’ve had so much success with our community outreach programs and all our ministry programs. Don’t try to deny that GOD is working outside the Catholic church. GOD does not work exclusively within the confines of the Catholic church. Sorry to burst your bubble on that and I don’t mean to be sarcastic but WOW. That response is very shallow-minded. No one christian denomination has dominion over GOD. No religion for that matter does. It’s the other way around.

 

[SFD]

Who else would it be. We had a young woman with throat cancer who was supposed to die. We prayed for her and now she is in remission. Over the last 2 years we have baptized 586 people who are new believers to Christ. We’ve had so much success with our community outreach programs and all our ministry programs. Don’t try to deny that GOD is working outside the Catholic church. GOD does not work exclusively within the confines of the Catholic church. Sorry to burst your bubble on that and I don’t mean to be sarcastic but WOW. That response is very shallow-minded. No one christian denomination has dominion over GOD. No religion for that matter does. It’s the other way around.

inchrist101,

No one can deny your experiences. Let me ask you though…do you think there are any false religions? If so why?

SFD

 

[Aquinas74]

That teaching is flat out wrong, shallow and judgemental. Come to our church and see the wonderful things GOD is doing, then tell those people they are in danger of going to hell if they don’t join the Roman Catholic church. We’re a simple non-denom church but man is GOD doing amazing things there.

No it is not, tell me did Christ intend there to be one true church, or 35,000 like there are now. He intended for there to be one Church and only one. That is the Catholic Church.

 

[stmaria]

Who else would it be. We had a young woman with throat cancer who was supposed to die. We prayed for her and now she is in remission.

 

[inchrist101]

inchrist101,

No one can deny your experiences. Let me ask you though…do you think there are any false religions? If so why?

SFD

Yes there are false religions. I think I know where you are going but I’ll play along. Why false religions, because I think people believe they know how to get closer to GOD. Assuming of course they believe in GOD unless you’re Pagan/Hindu in which case you have many gods. I don’t believe Christian religions are false religions though. I believe we have so many Christian denominations because someone reads the Bible and decides someone misinterpreted something. But 99% of our beliefs are the same. Maybe 99.9%. So why do you ask?

 

[inchrist101]

No it is not, tell me did Christ intend there to be one true church, or 35,000 like there are now. He intended for there to be one Church and only one. That is the Catholic Church.

Catholic meaning universal. Not Roman Catholic.

 

[inchrist101]

inchrist101;3239329:

Christ said that if two or more are gathered in His name that he would be there also. That is why she is in remission

The Catholic Church recognizes your baptisms.
.

Christ said, " thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church"

Did Christ establish his Church just so it would be split into over 30,000 different churches all with different beliefs? It doesn’t sense. There can only be One Divinely established Church.

Tell me what beliefs are different? Every Christian church believes in Grace and salvation through Jesus. Plain and simple. If not then they are not Christian to me. Other beliefs are not relevant for our salvation.

 

[Aquinas74]

Catholic meaning universal. Not Roman Catholic.

Protestant Churches were founded by Men, the Catholic Church was founded by Christ

 

[inchrist101]

inchrist101;3239329:

Christ said that if two or more are gathered in His name that he would be there also. That is why she is in remission

So our church is gathered in his name. So is yours and so is every other Christian church there is. So you’re making my point exactly. Jesus is with us and is with all those other Christian churches as well. Jesus is not going to favor one over the other. Do I believe he is happy with the way things are. No I don’t and I believe he will restore order. Not just for Christians but everyone. Remember every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord.

PEACE.

 

[inchrist101]

Protestant Churches were founded by Men, the Catholic Church was founded by Christ

Jesus founded the Christian church. It may have taken on different names. RC, Methodist, Lutheran etc. But we really are one church.

Just an interesting side point. I once read a Catholic statement that said the reformers were the Judas of the church. Then the rebuttal was I thought very interesting. Think about this and don’t repond immediately. Someone wrote back and said that the Catholic church was going down the wrong path and GOD sent the reformers to correct it.

 

[stmaria]

Tell me what beliefs are different? Every Christian church believes in Grace and salvation through Jesus. Plain and simple. If not then they are not Christian to me. Other beliefs are not relevant for our salvation.

Your church has already erred since it teaches you that Christ did not establish a visible Church.
Does your church teach you to beleive in private interpretation of the Bible?
Does your church teach you how to live a good moral life?
What does your church teach you about Divorce and remarriage?
What does it teach about using contraceptives?
Do women have a right to an abortion?
What does it teach about pre-martial sex?
Does your Church teach that you are saved by Faith alone?
Does your Church teach you that there is a purgatory?
Those a just a few for starters.

 

[Aquinas74]

Jesus founded the Christian church. It may have taken on different names. RC, Methodist, Lutheran etc. But we really are one church.

Just an interesting side point. I once read a Catholic statement that said the reformers were the Judas of the church. Then the rebuttal was I thought very interesting. Think about this and don’t repond immediately. Someone wrote back and said that the Catholic church was going down the wrong path and GOD sent the reformers to correct it.

the Catholic Church is the original faith given to us by Christ, Wesley, Luther and others invented Protestantism.

 

[SFD]

Yes there are false religions. I think I know where you are going but I’ll play along. Why false religions, because I think people believe they know how to get closer to GOD. Assuming of course they believe in GOD unless you’re Pagan/Hindu in which case you have many gods. I don’t believe Christian religions are false religions though. I believe we have so many Christian denominations because someone reads the Bible and decides someone misinterpreted something. But 99% of our beliefs are the same. Maybe 99.9%. So why do you ask?

I ask because many people claim religious experiences…even pagans…and neither you nor I can deny those experiences. In other words, those experences cannot prove anything in and of themselves.

The Christian religion is a revealed religion. Christ redeemed us and established the Church which He commanded to preach the Gospel to all nations…the Church that we must hear to be saved. He, as the Son of God, established this order.

The Church’s preaching was established by Christ Himself as the rule of faith. This can be proved from Matthew 28:19—20 and Mark 16:15—16; the command to teach all nations certainly implies a corresponding duty on the part of the nations to believe whatever the apostles and their successors teach, On the other hand, there is no notice anywhere of Christ’s having commanded the apostles to give the people the doctrine of salvation in writing, and never did He command the faithful as a whole to seek their faith in the Bible.

SFD

 

[GerardP]

Who else would it be.

Frankly, the devil disguised as an angel of light.

We had a young woman with throat cancer who was supposed to die. We prayed for her and now she is in remission. Over the last 2 years we have baptized 586 people who are new believers to Christ.

Do they believe in a Christ that is present in his flesh and blood under the appearances of bread and wine? Do they believe that Christ established a real, visible Church on the rock that was Peter? Do they believe in the Church that established the Canon of the Bible?

We’ve had so much success with our community outreach programs and all our ministry programs.

"And the devil led him into a high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time;

And he said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them."

I’m not writing this to scandalize you. But the devil only wants to keep you out of the Church that Christ founded. A Christianity-look alike will do the job as much as any of the more traditionally understood demonic activities.

Don’t try to deny that GOD is working outside the Catholic church. GOD does not work exclusively within the confines of the Catholic church. Sorry to burst your bubble on that and I don’t mean to be sarcastic but WOW.

First, I didn’t say that God does not work outside the borders of the Church. He certainly does. But that grace is given in order to draw people to the truth of His Church and the possibility of entering it.

That response is very shallow-minded.

I’m glad it wasn’t my response then.

No one christian denomination has dominion over GOD. No religion for that matter does. It’s the other way around.

That’s a completely Protestant belief that you want to enforce as dogma.

2+2=4. Not 4 for one person and 5 for another. There is one truth. One faith, one fold, one shepherd.

There is only one faith, the Catholic faith. Everything else is a false faith that will only lead to Hell.

Anything good in Orthodoxy, Protestantism or even secular Humanism has it’s origins in the Catholic Church.

 

[inchrist101]

I ask because many people claim religious experiences…even pagans…and neither you nor I can deny those experiences. In other words, those experences cannot prove anything in and of themselves.

The Christian religion is a revealed religion. Christ redeemed us and established the Church which He commanded to preach the Gospel to all nations…the Church that we must hear to be saved. He, as the Son of God, established this order.

The Church’s preaching was established by Christ Himself as the rule of faith. This can be proved from Matthew 28:19—20 and Mark 16:15—16; the command to teach all nations certainly implies a corresponding duty on the part of the nations to believe whatever the apostles and their successors teach, On the other hand, there is no notice anywhere of Christ’s having commanded the apostles to give the people the doctrine of salvation in writing, and never did He command the faithful as a whole to seek their faith in the Bible.

SFD

I kind of thought that’s where you were going. I understand what you are saying but when you pray to GOD and see his guidance come to fruition it’s hard to deny.

The only thing I would add to your second point is why then do we have the Bible?? I believe we are supposed to teach verbally no doubt. But think about this. Teachings can get distorted. You take a big line of people and whisper the sky is blue to one person. By the time the 100th person hears it they say oh the wall is red. I believe we are to teach orally and definitely Jesus meant it that way. But I believe GOD provided us the Bible so we would know if the teachings we have are correct. I reference Paul’s 2nd letter to Timothy:

3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work

How do you respond to that? Paul was commissioned by Jesus and here Paul is saying scripture is good and comes from GOD. Let’s suppose someone started teaching that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. If we didn’t have the BIble to invalidate that statement, someone could easily say it’s my word against yours. This is how I was taught. How would we ever know the difference?