Salvation outside the church

[inchrist101]

Your church has already erred since it teaches you that Christ did not establish a visible Church.
Does your church teach you to beleive in private interpretation of the Bible?
Does your church teach you how to live a good moral life?
What does your church teach you about Divorce and remarriage?
What does it teach about using contraceptives?
Do women have a right to an abortion?
What does it teach about pre-martial sex?
Does your Church teach that you are saved by Faith alone?
Does your Church teach you that there is a purgatory?
Those a just a few for starters.

Our church definitely has not erred. We do teach that Christ established one church. We simply don’t believe it’s just the RCC. Whether you like it or not we are 1 big church of Jesus.

With respect to your other questions here goes:
good moral life teachings- yes of course
divorce and re-marriage - don’t get divorced, seek spiritual counseling
Contraceptives - don’t use them
Abortion - definetly not.
Pre-marital sex - don’t do it. Just had a big sermon on that.
Faith alone - Yes but faith produces good works. As James says, no good works = dead faith. Works don’t get you to heaven though, read Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Purgatory - definitely not. Never taught by Jesus either. And don’t argue the Bible versus that you say support it. Been there done that. Jesus says believe and have eternal life. Not believe and first go to purgatory. Does that mean purgatory doesn’t exist. We simply don’t know. Do you know anyone who went there and told you about it. Of course you don’t. Could it exist? Sure why not. We’ll find out someday. you look me up and I’ll look you up.

So now you’ll tell me that we’ve made errors in our teaching.

Peace.

 

[inchrist101]

I’m not writing this to scandalize you. But the devil only wants to keep you out of the Church that Christ founded. A Christianity-look alike will do the job as much as any of the more traditionally understood demonic activities.

I appreciate that. A christianity look-alike?? I don’t see our church as a demonic activity. Unless pure worship to GOD is demonic. The devil wants to lead us away rom GOD. Our church is leading us to GOD.

First, I didn’t say that God does not work outside the borders of the Church. He certainly does. But that grace is given in order to draw people to the truth of His Church and the possibility of entering it.

Well said. But don’t say that that church is only the RCC. He would have lead me there then. He didn’t. He lead us to where we are and I believe in his real presence there.

There is only one faith, the Catholic faith. Everything else is a false faith that will only lead to Hell.

Kind of judgemental don’t you think. One faith yes. Christian faith. If I believe in Jesus with my all heart and follow his ways to the best of my ability then I don’t care what you say I’m going to heaven. Otherwise Jesus lied to us and I certainly don’t believe that. One thing will be interesting. When all christians end up in heaven I’d like to see what the Catholic response will be to the protestants and non-denoms. You going to tell us to get out.

Anything good in Orthodoxy, Protestantism or even secular Humanism has it’s origins in the Catholic Church.

What about the bad?

 

[JMMK]

There is one Church, and that’s the Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. All who are baptized with proper form and matter enter into the Church. The temporal and worldly form of the Church is the Catholic Church which preserves and hands down the teachings of Jesus.

In essence, the statement is that there is no salvation outside of baptism and there-by outside of Christ. The follow up statements from the Popes through out time state that salvation isn’t assured by baptism alone but by being faithful to Christ and his teachings as he asked us to be. Lest we become the branches that ‘bear no fruit’.

Ya, real shallow. :whacky:

 

[Rolltide]

Well said. But don’t say that that church is only the RCC.

In all fairness to the posters above, while you may disagree with their opinion that the Catholic Church is the one true church and there is no salvation outside of it (except in very specific circumstances), that IS the official teaching of the Church. It’s not an opinion that they’re coming up with on their own. It is an official, documented teaching, and they are presenting it as such.

 

[Rolltide]

One other important point… the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches hold the exact same opinion. They also believe that there is no salvation outside of their churches.

 

[palmas85]

Our church definitely has not erred. We do teach that Christ established one church. We simply don’t believe it’s just the RCC. Whether you like it or not we are 1 big church of Jesus.

With respect to your other questions here goes:
good moral life teachings- yes of course
divorce and re-marriage - don’t get divorced, seek spiritual counseling
Contraceptives - don’t use them
Abortion - definetly not.
Pre-marital sex - don’t do it. Just had a big sermon on that.
Faith alone - Yes but faith produces good works. As James says, no good works = dead faith. Works don’t get you to heaven though, read Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Purgatory - definitely not. Never taught by Jesus either. And don’t argue the Bible versus that you say support it. Been there done that. Jesus says believe and have eternal life. Not believe and first go to purgatory. Does that mean purgatory doesn’t exist. We simply don’t know. Do you know anyone who went there and told you about it. Of course you don’t. Could it exist? Sure why not. We’ll find out someday. you look me up and I’ll look you up.

So now you’ll tell me that we’ve made errors in our teaching.

Peace.

I would ask the following.

Where did your Church come from? When was it founded and from which branch of early Christianity did it spring. Be careful on this one

Where do you feel the doctrine of purgatory came from and when?

After that consider the request of Monica, the mother of Augustine in the 4th Century that she be prayed for after death.
.
Or the graffitti on the tombs from the first several centuries of Christianity that recorded prayers for the dead.

Read the Book of Peter which plainly speaks of a third place a place of waiting. Its very existence proves that such a place is not outside the realm of possibility even if not explicitly named.

Read the Books of the Maccabbees.

Then explain why the early church accepted the existence of such a place yet after the Reformation and only after the reformation was the belief ever even questioned,

As for works:

Read the Book of James. I know Martin Luther wanted it out but he couldn’t do it. So it is still there. I suppose you have some good explanation for it?

 

[SFD]

JMMK:

There is one Church, and that’s the Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. All who are baptized with proper form and matter enter into the Church. The temporal and worldly form of the Church is the Catholic Church which preserves and hands down the teachings of Jesus.

In essence, the statement is that there is no salvation outside of baptism and there-by outside of Christ. The follow up statements from the Popes through out time state that salvation isn’t assured by baptism alone but by being faithful to Christ and his teachings as he asked us to be. Lest we become the branches that ‘bear no fruit’.

Ya, real shallow.

No, it’s not shallow…it’s at least favoring heresy if not downright heretical. The dogma is “no salvation outside the Church”. Go back to post #23 .
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3239052&postcount=23

There isn’t any salvation outside the Church…that is de fide. However, there are those who are not within the visible communion of the Catholic Church, but they share the Church’s faith and are united with her at least in voto.

rolltide:

In all fairness to the posters above, while you may disagree with their opinion that the Catholic Church is the one true church and there is no salvation outside of it (except in very specific circumstances), that IS the official teaching of the Church. It’s not an opinion that they’re coming up with on their own. It is an official, documented teaching, and they are presenting it as such.

Again, there are no exceptions to this dogma. When some authors say there is some salvation outside the Church, they are really pointing out those who are within the Church by desire or in voto.

rolltide:

One other important point… the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches hold the exact same opinion. They also believe that there is no salvation outside of their churches.

It is also interesting to note that all Protestant sects believed (at first at least) there was “no salvation outside the Church”. This was a well-known Dogma that no one was denying at the time of the “reformation”.

It is a well known dogma as Pope Pius IX himself states in the encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore.

SFD

 

[Rolltide]

Again, there are no exceptions to this dogma. When some authors say there is some salvation outside the Church, they are really pointing out those who are within the Church by desire or in voto.

You are, of course, correct. I simply didn’t word my response as clearly as I could have.

 

[SFD]

I kind of thought that’s where you were going. I understand what you are saying but when you pray to GOD and see his guidance come to fruition it’s hard to deny.

These experiences prove nothing and have nothing to do with an intellectual assent to a revealed religion. I said I don’t deny these personal experiences…but they do not determine where Christ’s Church is found. We may put them aside for this discussion.

inchrist101:

The only thing I would add to your second point is why then do we have the Bible??

Well, the Bible is part of this. This initial preaching of the Gospel became part of the Bible…didn’t it?

inchrist101:

I believe we are supposed to teach verbally no doubt. But think about this. Teachings can get distorted. You take a big line of people and whisper the sky is blue to one person. By the time the 100th person hears it they say oh the wall is red. I believe we are to teach orally and definitely Jesus meant it that way.

The preaching of the Church means there is a heirarchy of teachers who are sent by the Church…it’s not just that preaching is done orally. Tradition was created by the constant preaching of the Church…that constant preaching of the same truths is what safeguards the faithful from false or distorted teachings.

Also, the Bible is partly comprised of that initial preaching of the Church…and the canon of sacred scripture was compiled by the Catholic Church anyway…and centuries after it was written. The Bible was not printed until many centuries after that…but Christians were very familiar with scripture even before it was widely available in print. It was a big part of Catholic culture because it was preached by the Church…well before anyone had their own copy of the Bible.

inchrist101:

But I believe GOD provided us the Bible so we would know if the teachings we have are correct. I reference Paul’s 2nd letter to Timothy:

3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work

How do you respond to that? Paul was commissioned by Jesus and here Paul is saying scripture is good and comes from GOD.

Well, St. Paul is exhorting Timothy to constancy…2nd Tim. 3-14 states, “But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned, and which have been committed to thee: knowing of whom thou hast learned them:” and then verse 16 in the same chapter, tells us that every part of Divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends spoken of by St. Paul. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those scriptures, which Timothy “knew from his infancy” [verse 15], that is, with the Old Testament alone; nor with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the Church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

The apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

Ponder that for awhile.

inchrist101:

Let’s suppose someone started teaching that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. If we didn’t have the BIble to invalidate that statement, someone could easily say it’s my word against yours. This is how I was taught. How would we ever know the difference?

It would conflict with the tradition of the Church and the faithful would know it was heterodox. In your (rather obvious) example it would conflict directly with scripture as well.

SFD

 

[stmaria]

Our church definitely has not erred. We do teach that Christ established one church. We simply don’t believe it’s just the RCC. Whether you like it or not we are 1 big church of Jesus.

 

[D317]

Could not have said it better myself. Obviously, I couldn’t have!

Stmaria, you rock.

 

[fhansen]

If it hasn’t been mentioned remember that the Church considers Protestant communities to be in an imperfect union with her -not really churches in the true sense of the word but still “Catholic” in an imperfect sense by being separated from her.

 

[knightbvm]

What I don’t understand is the refusal to accept the truth of the matter.

How can there be a “Baptism of Blood” as described in any Catechism when a Pope has infallibly stated that:

no one outside the Church can be saved. Because only inside the Church can someone benefit from the Sacraments to the point of salvation?

And that even pouring your blood out in Christ’s name will not save you if you are not in the unity that the Pope defined as “so important.”

To believe otherwise diminishes the importance of the sacraments.

GERRY GERRY GERRY–AND ALL THOSE WHO MAKE THIS MISTAKE OVER AND OVER AGAIN–especially after quoting the Council of Florence----Those who “qualify” for Baptism of Desire/Blood (known to God Himself) ARENT OUTSIDE THE CHURCH—HELLO!!!

 

[GerardP]

GERRY GERRY GERRY–AND ALL THOSE WHO MAKE THIS MISTAKE OVER AND OVER AGAIN–especially after quoting the Council of Florence----Those who “qualify” for Baptism of Desire/Blood (known to God Himself) ARENT OUTSIDE THE CHURCH—HELLO!!!

That doesn’t make sense.

If they aren’t outside the Church, that means that they have been baptised. They wouldn’t need a second Baptism.

The Church has unambiguously stated that water Baptism is necessary.

Desire may provide justification but God’s response to that justification would be to provide a water Baptism.

Belief or hope in gratuitous miracles on God’s part is logically and doctrinally sound when compared to accepting contradictory statements that contribute to the “de-incarnationalization of Christ.”

God’s laws are not airy fairy feel good sayings. They have a physical effect on ourselves and the physical world around us. Christ’s life, death and resurrection were physical events. God is not a liar, everyone gets a shot at Heaven. There’s no need to diminish God because we don’t trust His judgements.

 

[Aquinas74]

Gerard today I made a visit to the Blessed Sacrament and among other things I thanked Almighty God that I am a Catholic, and I prayed for the conversion of a great many souls. Being Catholic is truly a wondeful gift, one that I have grown to appreciate with time.

 

[knightbvm]

That doesn’t make sense.

If they aren’t outside the Church, that means that they have been baptised. They wouldn’t need a second Baptism.

The Church has unambiguously stated that water Baptism is necessary.

Desire may provide justification but God’s response to that justification would be to provide a water Baptism.

Belief or hope in gratuitous miracles on God’s part is logically and doctrinally sound when compared to accepting contradictory statements that contribute to the "de-incarnationalization of Christ
God’s laws are not airy fairy feel good sayings. They have a physical effect on ourselves and the physical world around us. Christ’s life, death and resurrection were physical events. God is not a liar, everyone gets a shot at Heaven. There’s no need to diminish God because we don’t trust His judgements.

Gerry please read ALL the statments on salvation. The Church teaches the water baptism is necessary for salvation. Does this mean that it is normatively necessary or as you say absolutley necessary? Well it has to be normatively necessary because Pius IX , Pius XII, (all quotes are in this very thread) catechism Pius X Vatican II have stated that one can get into heaven by an implicit desire (baptism of desire) if the circumstances are right. Are they formal members of the Church ? no!! Nonetheless those who “qualify” are members of the Church. This is the “exception to the rule” taught by the Popes mentioned above.

Florence merely says that if someone is outside the Church then he is damned–even if he sheds his blood for Christ!!! No problem!!! This doesnt concern the person who falls under Baptism of Desire(I agree that God only knows who these people are–and we should try to convert everyone to the one true faith) because he isnt outside the Church. GO BACK GERRY READ WHAT THE POPES TAUGHT. THEY ARE RIGHT IN THIS THREAD CHIEF!!!

 

[GerardP]

Gerry please read ALL the statments on salvation.

I have. I just haven’t brought things to the quotes that they don’t contain.

The Church teaches the water baptism is necessary for salvation. Does this mean that it is normatively necessary or as you say absolutley necessary?

Necessary means necessary. What you are calling “normative” necessity is called “contingent” by the Church. The Church has said water is necessary not contingent.

Well it has to be normatively necessary because Pius IX , Pius XII, (all quotes are in this very thread) catechism Pius X Vatican II have stated that one can get into heaven by an implicit desire (baptism of desire) if the circumstances are right.

That’s not what they say. The Popes say that they are “on the way of salvation” or “can attain eternal life” not by their desire but that their desire will move God to provide the necessary means for their salvation.

As Aquinas stated, God will send an Angel to instruct them.

Are they formal members of the Church ? no!! Nonetheless those who “qualify” are members of the Church. This is the “exception to the rule” taught by the Popes mentioned above.

To “qualify” you must be Baptized. The current dance around this issue it to present the term “Formal” as being on the registry of a parish. This is to sidestep the issue of what really sacramentally being a Catholic is. This isn’t a game of horseshoes.

Florence merely says that if someone is outside the Church then he is damned–even if he sheds his blood for Christ!!! No problem!!! This doesnt concern the person who falls under Baptism of Desire(I agree that God only knows who these people are–and we should try to convert everyone to the one true faith)
because he isnt outside the Church.

Cantate Domino doesn’t “merely” say anything. It unequivocally DEFINES the issue. The indefinition and misdefinition and purposefully vague guesses of “theologians” does not have the magisterial authority that Pope Eugene irreformably utillized.

GO BACK GERRY READ WHAT THE POPES TAUGHT. THEY ARE RIGHT IN THIS THREAD CHIEF!!!

Actually, you go back and read them and find me a dogmatic statement that says that Water Baptism will not be supplied by God in extreme cases because in those cases it’s not necessary.

 

[GerardP]

Gerard today I made a visit to the Blessed Sacrament and among other things I thanked Almighty God that I am a Catholic, and I prayed for the conversion of a great many souls. Being Catholic is truly a wondeful gift, one that I have grown to appreciate with time.

It’s an amazing act of mercy on God’s part. If we’re smart, we’re going to find it a humbling realization. I hope that many souls are saved by your prayers and sacrifices.

 

[knightbvm]

Nice try Gerry but i am not talking about contingency. I am tlaking about the Church clarifying what she means about necessary. You are saying that "necessary means “necessary.” Well, that begs the question. Is it possible that God could allow, under some circumstances exceptions? YES!!! He does this with other quotes and passages. Example Paul says “All have sinned and falls shorts of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23–Does Paul mean all in the absolute sense? NO!!! Mary!!! Infants who die before the age of reason—IT IS THE NORM!!!

Now—NICE TRY BUT THE POPES DID SAY SOMEONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT EXPLICIT FAITH----LET’S TAKE PIUS IX Sinulari quadem “…it is necessary to hold for certain that those who labour in ignorance, of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by guilt in the eyes of God.” This was December 9 1854. Pius expands on this in in Quanto canficiamur (denzinger 1677) It is known to US and to you that they who labour in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, canby the operating power of divine light and grace, OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls,and habits of all men,because og His great goodness and mercy, will by NO MEANS SUFFER ANYONE TO BE PUNISHED WITH ETERNAL TORMENT WHO HAS NOT THE GUILT OF DELIBERATE SIN."
Now if Baptism is ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY AS YOU SAY–why would Pope Pius IX even make these statements? This wouldnt even matter if what you are saying is true. It would be an open and shut case. NO BAPTISM YOU CANT BE SAVED—
Also how about Pius X’s catechism? If anyone was a hawk on orthodoxy it was Pius X–the catechism clearly says that Baptism of Desire is a teaching of the Church. (even Ludwigg Ott’s book–Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma says The CHurch teaches Baptism of Desire/Blood)
Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X:

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

P.S. The Holy Offices Letter issued by Pius XII says that “faith that leads to salvations need not always be explicit.”(Leonard Feeney case)

 

[SaintHenry]

1. The Roman Catholic Church’s central teaching authority has changed its teachings on “salvation outside the Church” several times.
2. The various positions cannot be reconciled. It is just that simple.
3. The Roman Catholic Church’s central teaching authority will never admit that it has taught irreconcilably inconsistent teachings on any doctrine, since would cause it to lose its authoritativeness.
4. The vast majority of Roman Catholic bishops and priests simply don’t know that the Church has taught irreconcilably inconsistent teachings on any doctrine, so they are not lying when they say that this has not occurred. But some do know.
5. This proves that the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching authority cannot be relied upon. I see no other conclusion.
6. Therefore, I trust only what is in the Bible.
7. This does not mean that one must leave the Roman Catholic Church or that it is worse than other churches.
8. The teaching authorities of other churches cannot be relied upon either.
9. This all simply means that God did not leave on the earth any authoritative teaching authority in the form of a human being.
10. But God did leave on the earth the Word of God, the Bible, as the authoritative teaching authority.
11. Therefore, there is no substitute for studying and learning the Bible.
12. The sooner anyone stops looking for a trustworthy WORD OF MAN (Pope, Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyer, etc.) teaching authority, and starting looking just to the WORD OF GOD (Bible) as his/her teaching authority, the sooner he/she will find peace and security in God. Or, you can keep researching and thinking and asking and hoping to find a why to see that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church really are infallible after all. I don’t recommend that. Just have faith in God and Christ, like the Bible recommends.