And what would you say my agenda is, GerardP?
I don’t know and I don’t care. But I do know that you are confused and spreading confusion.
The correct question is rather…did he teach an error here?
If he thought true and natural water was not necessary, then yes he stated an error as a personal theologian and not as the Bishop of Rome binding the Church.
Says who? You? Why? “Because He’s Pius XII.”
Was he defining baptism of desire? No, of course not.
Yet you’ll take it as a magisterial proof of Baptism of Desire when it is not.
Address to Midwives is an allocution…it is not an infallible definition.
St. Alphonsus gave “Baptism of Desire” the note “de fide”.
That was his opinion. He’s not the Pope.
Others
at least call it “proximate to the faith”.
So they are not all in agreement about it’s theological note?
It is a mortal sin to deny it.
Bull. Show me the anathema.
Do you think we need only submit our intellects to infallible definitions?
No. That is another big mistake you are making.
That is the very error spoken of by Cardinal Manning and addressed by Pope Piux IX in Tuas Libenter.
Well, it’s not relevant.
Pius IX said, “it is not sufficient for learned Catholics to accept and revere the aforesaid dogmas of the Church…”
Re: Subordinating infallible definitions to fallible explanations:
You wrote:
You most certainly are.
The infallibility of the Church is what tells us that things “theologically certain” are true Catholic doctrines.
By your logic, you don’t ever attain an understanding of an infallible declaration of the Church. You need a fallible interpreter with a credential to place above the definitions of the Magisterium because your modernist influenced mind is riddled with Pyrrhonism.
You must submit your intellect to these teachings. That is what Pius IX is telling us in Tuas Libenter (Dz. 1684).
Simply put. You don’t know what your talking about. You didn’t even know what Pius IX was talking about in the previous paragraph of the same letter that you quoted. You actually asked me to source it. You should have recognized it.
No problem. How about if you read it once instead of cutting and pasting from some liberal apologist that wants to water down Catholic truth?
The Church’s own theologians disagree with you…why do you think you are infallible as an individual reading Trent?
Not all of the Church’s theologians disagree. And also, opinions about what the Church’s theologians actually meant are up for debate. So, don’t play the game that this is “settled” by any means.
So we can even move the discussion a step back by pointing out the contradictory or multiple positions held by Doctors of the Church.
You have NO weight whatsoever…St. Alphonsus does have weight…Herve has weight…Bellarmine has weight…YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY WEIGHT.
Weight means nothing when a fact is self-evident. If the Pope says 2+2=5. You seem to think that that is not madness but since he’s the Pope, you’ll accept. That’s not submission of intellect. That’s stupidity.
All you can do is quote Trent and say they are all wrong.
And how does that make me wrong? You appeal to fallible theologians. I appeal to infallible Magisterial definitions of the Church. I don’t take a quote about justification and apply it to salvation. I don’t add “normative necessity” when the word says necessary. I don’t make “true and natural” water into a metaphor and pretend that I’m not doing it.
How are you any different than a Protestant with his Bible?
I know that there is an authority and that human reason can recognize it. I believe that reality can be known by human reason. And divine truths can be understood and not contradicted by human reason as Pius X taught. I know that there are magisterial levels. I know that Popes are not always infallible and I also know that the Faith can be known by someone without WEIGHT, just as truly as anyone can know 2+2=4.
Now I turn the question on you.
How are you no different in kind than the Protestant?
You’ve made fallible theologians the final authority on infallible definitions. You’ve supplanted the teaching authority of the Church.
Just as the Protestant has to leave out inconvenient passages or even whole books from the Bible to rationalize his errors, You have to rely on additions to infallible declarations to rationalize your errors.
You are undermining the teaching authority of the Church:
1800 [The true progress of knowledge, both natural and revealed] .For, the doctrine of faith which God revealed has not been handed down as a philosophic invention to the human mind to be perfected, but has been entrusted as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ, to be faithfully guarded and infallibly interpreted. Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding [can. 3]. "Therefore . . . let the understanding, the knowledge, and wisdom of individuals as of all, of one man as of the whole Church, grow and progress strongly with the passage of the ages and the centuries; but let it be solely in its own genus, namely in the same dogma, with the same sense and the same understanding.’’ *