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SFD
Guest
No one thinks you are Gerard…
This just proves that you are just babbling on this thread…you don’t even know what it is about…do you? That also explains the quick “one sentence paragraph” responses.
SFD
- Status
This just proves that you are just babbling on this thread…you don’t even know what it is about…do you? That also explains the quick “one sentence paragraph” responses.
SFD
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SFD
Guest
Have you ever considered seeking professional help? You need it.
M
mgrfin
Guest
Such periti! Salve me, Salve me!I was thinking spiritual help might be more in order for our liberal friend.…
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DustinsDad
Guest
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mgrfin
Guest
Gratias ago. Ora pro me. Vale
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mgrfin
Guest
Peace, brothers,
A lot has been said on this thread about the need for the Church for salvation. We recall the words of the Church from the past, that ‘outside the church, there is no salvation”.
As true as this is, it does not diminish in any way Christ’s will for the salvation for all men.
We have treated even of individuals who have been very concerned that this truth be preserved, to the point of leaving the Church in schism, apostasy and/or heresy. We are concerned that they are not members of the Church any longer who have left as a result of these schisms.
We have mentioned Archbishop Lefebreve, and also of Father Feeney, and the work of the Benedict Center. There are others in the United States, and elsewhere who have produced and promoted the extremes of Traditionalism, and reactionary moods regarding the need to belong to the Church to be saved.
While we might at times laud the efforts of some to bring non-Catholics into the fold, we are encouraged by the work of Vatican 2 in this regard.
The movement of the Church for ecumenism was made at Vat 2, especially in the conciliar decree “Unitatis Redintegratio”. This movement of the Holy Spirit is irreversible, and its validity is permanent, for the following reasons:
peace
A lot has been said on this thread about the need for the Church for salvation. We recall the words of the Church from the past, that ‘outside the church, there is no salvation”.
As true as this is, it does not diminish in any way Christ’s will for the salvation for all men.
We have treated even of individuals who have been very concerned that this truth be preserved, to the point of leaving the Church in schism, apostasy and/or heresy. We are concerned that they are not members of the Church any longer who have left as a result of these schisms.
We have mentioned Archbishop Lefebreve, and also of Father Feeney, and the work of the Benedict Center. There are others in the United States, and elsewhere who have produced and promoted the extremes of Traditionalism, and reactionary moods regarding the need to belong to the Church to be saved.
While we might at times laud the efforts of some to bring non-Catholics into the fold, we are encouraged by the work of Vatican 2 in this regard.
The movement of the Church for ecumenism was made at Vat 2, especially in the conciliar decree “Unitatis Redintegratio”. This movement of the Holy Spirit is irreversible, and its validity is permanent, for the following reasons:
- It conforms to the will of Christ (that all men be saved)
- it conforms to the wishes of the universal Council, approved by Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, and Pope John Paul II.
- It corresponds with the signs of the times, with the new evangelization to which we are called.
- It already has borne much fruit in the life of the Church, gifts of the Lord’s Spirit for which we must thank Him.
- These successes oblige us to forge ahead and to preserve in our ecumenical spirit.
peace
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GerardP
Guest
Do you have an issue with my defense of Fr. Feeney’s position? Do you want to discuss my support of Archbishop LeFebvre or Cardinal Bea or Malachi Martin or my support of the Traditional Latin Mass?
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GerardP
Guest
It’s not a threat. It was a rebuke and a promise that has already been fulfilled.
No. You can turn and run but God will still hold you accountable.
Is this an example of your Christian upbringing and ethics?
I have read them. You dodge, you contradict yourself. You misdirect and give fallacious reasoning for your prejudiced “conclusions”.
I’m greatly indebted to archbishop LeFebvre. He will be validated by the Church at some date in the future.
As far as your accusations go. You interchange heresy, apostacy and schism as if they are necessarily linked. They aren’t. The Orthodox for example are heretics and schismatice but they aren’t Apostates. Following your logic, if it can be proved that LeFebvre was invalidly excommunicated, there can be no heresy nor apostasy.
Do you even believe that an excommunication can be invalid or are you one of those idolators of the papacy that believes everything the Pope says and does is infallible and impeccable?
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GerardP
Guest
Nor does it diminish Christ’s words from Luke 13 of how few will actually be saved.
I disagree, the Holy Father is now under enormous political pressure for stating plain Catholic doctrine that the entire world knew as obvious prior to the Council.
Ecumenism is a policy. It is not a “movement of the Holy Spirit.”
Ultimately it is a naive effort to promote unity without false religions feeling bad or renouncing their errors.
Missionary work and evangelization prior to the Council also conformed to the will of Christ that the Church “go and teach all nations.” Also, it’s the desire of Christ that all men be saved. His permissible will allows many to damn themselves.
It’s apparent that none of these Popes agreed exactly on what ecumenism was and what the end goal was. John XXIII and Card. Bea were closer to Pius XII in plainly stating that “Unity” meant the same faith, sacraments in submission to the successor of Peter. Paul VI and JPII were never interested in that. B16 is more in line with Pope John. And he is considered a threat to ecumenism with his proclamation of simple truths.
The signs of the times and leading Catholic indicators correspond with the conclusion that it’s been a failed policy.
False. It’s spread syncretism, indifference, irreverence and modernism.
A U.S. Bishop at one of the conferences in the last few years pointed out that most ecumenical ventures don’t seem to pan out with conversions. He asked if the dialogues we had with non-Catholics ever were honest enough to let them know that we’d hope for their conversion. The question wound up being rhetorical.
Look at the reaction to B16’s rewrite of the Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews. Jewish leaders seem to believe that Vatican II actually changed the mission of the Church.
Catholic ecumenism namely, the ecumenism of return not false ecumenism of the JPII “assisi gathering” stripe.
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stmaria
Guest
I understand everyword of Latin that is in the Mass. That is all I need.
You never answered my question. If I said that Laitn is the “language of the angels” would I be right?
Also, is an excommunication decree infallible?
I beleive that the Canon lawyer has it right.
ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/edpeters_excommun_nov06.asp
IgnatiusInsight.com: What would you say are the most common misconceptions about excommunication? Why are they so prevalent, even among Catholics
First, there is the idea that excommunication kicks one out of the Church. That is not right. There are ways to cancel one’s Church membership, but excommunication isn’t one of them. …an excommunicated person is still a member of the Church, but he or she has lost certain key rights attached to Church membership and is cut off from many of the activities and benefits of the Church…
**the second misconception **is that people who die excommunicated go to hell. Maybe they do, and maybe they don’t, but we don’t know with certainty either way. In any case, the Church does not claim to exercise jurisdiction over the dead, and one’s final fate is determined by God based on the life one leads. Of course, appearing before God for judgment in the state of excommunication from His Church on earth is not a good thing."
The priests of the SSPX have been excommunicated. So according to you they are outside the Church. If they are “outside the Church” how is it that there Mass is** valid? **If they are “outside the Church” there is **no way **that their Mass could be valid.
Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission
unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm
.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions. To the extent that they adhere to the schism of the late Archbishop Lefebvre,** they are also excommunicated. **2.) Concretely this means that the **Masses offered **by these priests are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to the law of the Church. "
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stmaria
Guest
)
Saved how? Does ecumenism, as it is practiced by men like Cardinal Kasper, call for a “return” to the Catholic Church.?
Do Vatican officials call for the Jews to conversion or do they say the Jewish faith is salvic?
.
What fruit has ecumenism borne?
What successes?
.
True ecumenism, yes. The call for all to return to the True Church.
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mgrfin
Guest
The Holy Father is under tremendous political pressure from whom? Says whom? From where?
From Vatican documents:
"The fundamental idea of the Second Vatican Council and especially of the Decree on Ecumenism is: communio This is essential to the correct understanding of the talk of “elemente ecclesiae”.
This phrase gives a quantitative, almost materialistic impression, as though one could count these elements and check whether the number is complete. This “ecclesiology of elements” was criticised already during the Council and even more so after the Council But Unitatis redintegratio did not stop at this point; the Decree on Ecumenism does not view the separated churches and ecclesial communities simply as entities which have retained a limited stock of elements, different in each instance, but able to be quantitatively determined; rather, it sees each as an integral whole which gives expression to those elements within the totality of its ecclesiological understanding.
“In the end ecumenism is an adventure of the Holy Spirit. : “And hope does not disappoint, for God’s love has been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us” (Rom 5:5) (UR, 24).”
peace
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mgrfin
Guest
Excommunications can be lifted after repentance. In the case of Lefebreve the penalty was not only ‘latae sententiae’ , but a second was ‘ferendae sententiae’, per “Ecclesia Dei”.
The time for repentance for Lefebreve is over. He is dead. The excommunication cannot be lifted. He died 'outside the Church, where there is no salvation. Something even he believed. God has already judged him, as has the rest of the Church. May God forgive them.
The anathemas of Trent relating to Martin Luther still exist. They have not been lifed, and won’t be. Likewise the same with Lefebreve.
The bishops Lefebrfeve consecrated were likewise excommunicated. Any ordinands to the priesthood by these bishops were also excommunicated, and are outside the Church.
Time for repentance is now, while these people are still alive. They have accomplished nothing, but have spread and expanded their apostacy.
I am not an idolator. I believe what the Pope says ex cathedra on faith and morals, intending to do so, is infallible, yes. That is part of the Catholic faith. Don’t you believe that? Or are you and your band disbelievers in Papal Infallibility?
peace
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mgrfin
Guest
The TLM is fine, if you understand Latin. Let’s not get into this foolishness of saying Latin is the language of the angels, or, the immutability of the dead Latin language, or the preposterous belief that Jesus spoke Latin.
Fr. Feeney is dead. He was excommunicated, wasn’t he?
He spread hatred for the Jews. Hatred never accomplishes anything - but more gas ovens.
Hardly anyone remembers Feeney for anything, except being an apostate.
What has he done, what has he accomplished, what have his followers done?
All I see are a few stranglers, like here on this Internet site, continuing to spread hatred for which Feeney was noted for. Hatred for the Jews, hatred for the Church.
peace.
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mgrfin
Guest
I am happy you understand every word that is spoken in the Mass. You have a degree in Latin? How many years did you study the language?
Latin is not the language of the angels. The angels don’t communicate in language, which is spoken. It is not the language of God, and no, Jesus did not speak latin.
As for your canonist, have him re-read Mystici Corporis. According to Pope Pius XII, you are outside of the Mystical Body of Christ by virtue of excommunication. That’s what the words means “ex” and “communio” mean. "Communio’ does not mean Eucharist here.
From Mystici Corporis:
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.”[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
Yes, excommunication kicks you outside of the Church. Whether such go to hell, only God judges, but remember, 'outside the Church there is no salvation"…
It doesn’t get more serious than this, than to be excommunicated.
The Church doesn’t have more serious a penalty than that.
peace
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Walking_Home
Guest
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. All you have been spouting is your own hatred toward Arch. Lefebvre and Fr. Feeney.
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mgrfin
Guest
Hatred? No. I prayed for them this morning. Did you?
And you didn’t tell us what these folks have accomplished with their schism. Any ideas?
You have attacked me, and without substance.
peace
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Walking_Home
Guest
I pray for all. To bad – your words here to not reflect your apparent prayer.
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mgrfin
Guest
Good. Let us pray then for Feeney and Lefebreve, that their followers may return to the one, true Church. O Lord hear our prayer!
peace
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