Salvation outside the church

[mgrfin]

That’s alot of speculation on things I really have no idea of. I really don’t think it was necessary - but it retains a direct call for conversion, so that’s good. I don’t think any of us have any idea what sort of internal battles the Holy Father faces with all that he is doing…gotta keep praying for him!

Some do of course, I just don’t think it’s as widespread as folks think. Just mention EENS and most folks accuse you of being a “Feeneyite”…

DustinsDad

Oh, I thought you were a Feeneyite, or ‘vacant seat’, person, or a follower of the schismatic sect following Lefebreve?

I’m sorry. I just jumped to conclusions.

Did you write your letter to the Holy Father yet?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

My understanding is that all of the commandments but the one about the sabbath are part of the natural law.

That’s one exception. I am sure there are more, especially when you get down to specifics.

peace

 

[DustinsDad]

That’s one exception. I am sure there are more, especially when you get down to specifics.

No, Neil is correct here.

If you are looking for “specifics”, you’d be looking at the laws or norms of particular cultures, which would only reflect how well or how ill a culture has responded to the Natural Law. Cultures can become wicked, such as the Myans with their human sacrifice, or our own with it’s legalized abortion and widespread sexual immorality (among other things).

Truth is not relative.

 

[louey]

The terms heresy, apostasy and schism are no longer used of those born and baptized outside the Catholic Church. The offenses can be ascribed only to Catholics, those baptised into the Catholic Church or later received into it.

“But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)”
UR 3.

BTW, don’t Sedevacantists believe that they have separated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, that they too are outside the Mystical Body of Christ?

Just asking…

peace

No, a sedevacantist has not separated from the Roman Caholic Church, they have separated themselves from the false church, the conciliar church conceived at VII. They recognize the false church, and knowing that the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, they know the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. One who has separated himself from the conciliar church has abjured of of his heresies, and has embraced the Catholic faith. Only Catholic’s can claim the name Christian. All those who are not Catholic are servants of satan, and belong to sects created by satan. They do not have the right to call themselves Christian.

 

[catharina]

No, a sedevacantist has not separated from the Roman Caholic Church, they have separated themselves from the false church, the conciliar church conceived at VII. They recognize the false church, and knowing that the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, they know the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. One who has separated himself from the conciliar church has abjured of of his heresies, and has embraced the Catholic faith. Only Catholic’s can claim the name Christian. All those who are not Catholic are servants of satan, and belong to sects created by satan. They do not have the right to call themselves Christian.

Apparently you’re following George Orwell’s fictional notion of life. You seem so familiar with the practice of Double Speak. People who break with Rome are the Catholic Church? PLEASE.

 

[mgrfin]

No, a sedevacantist has not separated from the Roman Caholic Church, they have separated themselves from the false church, the conciliar church conceived at VII. They recognize the false church, and knowing that the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, they know the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. One who has separated himself from the conciliar church has abjured of of his heresies, and has embraced the Catholic faith. Only Catholic’s can claim the name Christian. All those who are not Catholic are servants of satan, and belong to sects created by satan. They do not have the right to call themselves Christian.

So, what you are saying is that I, as a Catholic Christian, am a ‘servant of satan’, and 'I belong to sects created by satan"?

Is that what you believe, but you have resisted to say?

peace

 

[SFD]

The Council of Trent:
Canon 19.
If anyone says that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor forbidden, but free; or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians, let him be anathema

Yes.

The Ten Commandments pertain to Christians. They are not enscribed in the hearts of mankind as Divine law.

No, this is your teaching, mgrfin.

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia refuting you:
Catholic Encyclopedia:

Called also simply THE COMMANDMENTS, COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, or THE DECALOGUE (Gr. deka, ten, and logos, a word), the Ten Words of Sayings, the latter name generally applied by the Greek Fathers.

The Ten Commandments are precepts bearing on the fundamental obligations of religion and morality and embodying the revealed expression of the Creator’s will in relation to man’s whole duty to God and to his fellow-creatures. They are found twice recorded in the Pentateuch, in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but are given in an abridged form in the catechisms. Written by the finger of God on two tables of stone, this Divine code was received from the Almighty by Moses amid the thunders of Mount Sinai, and by him made the ground-work of the Mosaic Law. Christ resumed these Commandments in the double precept of charity–love of God and of the neighbour; He proclaimed them as binding under the New Law in Matthew 19 and in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5). He also simplified or interpreted them, e.g. by declaring unnecessary oaths equally unlawful with false, by condemning hatred and calumny as well as murder, by enjoining even love of enemies, and by condemning indulgence of evil desires as fraught with the same malice as adultery (Matthew 5). The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.

There is no numerical division of the Commandments in the Books of Moses, but the injunctions are distinctly tenfold, and are found almost identical in both sources. The order, too, is the same except for the final prohibitions pronounced against concupiscence, that of Deuteronomy being adopted in preference to Exodus. A confusion, however, exists in the numbering, which is due to a difference of opinion concerning the initial precept on Divine worship.

…]

Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus, Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division. It seems, however, as logical to separate at the end as to group at the beginning, for while one single object is aimed at under worship, two specifically different sins are forbidden under covetousness; if adultery and theft belong to two distinct species of moral wrong, the same must be said of the desire to commit these evils.

The Supreme Law-Giver begins by proclaiming His Name and His Titles to the obedience of the creature man: “I am the Lord, thy God. . .” The laws which follow have regard to God and His representatives on earth (first four) and to our fellow-man (last six).

•Being the one true God, He alone is to be adored, and all rendering to creatures of the worship which belongs to Him falls under the ban of His displeasure; the making of “graven things” is condemned: not all pictures, images, and works of art, but such as are intended to be adored and served (First).

•Associated with God in the minds of men and representing Him, is His Holy Name, which by the Second Commandment is declared worthy of all veneration and respect and its profanation reprobated.

•And He claims one day out of the seven as a memorial to Himself, and this must be kept holy (Third).

•Finally, parents being the natural providence of their offspring, invested with authority for their guidance and correction, and holding the place of God before them, the child is bidden to honour and respect them as His lawful representatives (Fourth).

The precepts which follow are meant to protect man in his natural rights against the injustice of his fellows.

•His life is the object of the Fifth;

•the honour of his body as well as the source of life, of the Sixth;

•His lawful possessions, of the Seventh;

•his good name, of the Eighth;

•And in order to make him still more secure in the enjoyment of his rights, it is declared an offense against God to desire to wrong him, in his family rights by the Ninth;

•And in his property rights by the Tenth.

This legislation expresses not only the Maker’s positive will, but the voice of nature as well–the laws which govern our being and are written more or less clearly in every human heart. The necessity of the written law is explained by the obscuring of the unwritten in men’s souls by sin. These Divine mandates are regarded as binding on every human creature, and their violation, with sufficient reflection and consent of the will, if the matter be grave, is considered a grievous or mortal offense against God. They have always been esteemed as the most precious rules of life and are the basis of all Christian legislation.

 

[louey]

Apparently you’re following George Orwell’s fictional notion of life. You seem so familiar with the practice of Double Speak. People who break with Rome are the Catholic Church? PLEASE.

The Church is those who hold the Catholic faith. One can call themselves catholic, but it means nothing if one does not believe in the Catholic faith. I too thought I was Catholic. I found out I was not, I never knew the Catholic faith; I was brought up in the conciliar church, and believed what the documents of VII taught. I thought this was the Catholic faith. God opened my eyes to the truth. He lead me to the Catholic faith. I was shocked, saddened and over joyed. Truth is absolute, there can be only one truth, and the truth is found only in the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

 

[SFD]

I’ve given you canons from Constance and CIC/17 to show that publication is necessary for the ipso facto excommunication…

And I responded to you…you never answered me. See page 51, post #758.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3346742&postcount=758
CE:

Censures latæ sententiæ (of sentence pronounced) are incurred ipso facto by the commission of the crime; in other words, the delinquent incurs the penalty in the very act of breaking the law, and the censure binds the conscience of the delinquent immediately, without the process of a trial, or the formality of a judicial sentence. The law itself inflicts the penalty in the moment when the violation of the law is complete.

…for lawful action to proceed against the person. What is your source for believing otherwise?

Well, you don’t specify what “lawful action” is to be taken and by whom. Please do so now.

This does not agree with the rule of law, which means that an accused person has his deeds investigated and tried before he is convicted and punished.

This is in direct conflict with the definition provided above. Again:
Cath. Encyclopedia:

Censures latæ sententiæ (of sentence pronounced) are incurred ipso facto by the commission of the crime; in other words, the delinquent incurs the penalty in the very act of breaking the law, and the censure binds the conscience of the delinquent immediately, without the process of a trial, or the formality of a judicial sentence.

Catholic Encyclopedia:

Additional penalties to be decreed by judicial sentences: Apostates and heretics are irregular, that is, debarred from receiving clerical orders or exercising lawfully the duties and rights annexed to them; they are infamous, that is, publicly noted as guilty and dishonoured. This note of infamy clings to the children and grandchildren of unrepented heretics. Heretical clerics and all who receive, defend, or favour them are ipso facto deprived of their benefices, offices, and ecclesiastical jurisdiction. The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church. Baptism received without necessity by an adult at the hands of a declared heretic renders the recipient irregular. Heresy constitutes an impedient impediment to marriage with a Catholic (mixta religio) from which the pope dispenses or gives the bishops power to dispense (see IMPEDIMENTS). Communicatio in sacris, i.e. active participation in non-Catholic religious functions, is on the whole unlawful, but it is not so intrinsically evil that, under given circumstances, it may not be excused. Thus friends and relatives may for good reasons accompany a funeral, be present at a marriage or a baptism, without causing scandal or lending support, to the non-Catholic rites, provided no active part be taken in them: their motive is friendship, or maybe courtesy, but it nowise implies approval of the rites. Non-Catholics are admitted to all Catholic services but not to the sacraments.

You are advocating ecclesiastical vigilantism (i.e. anarchy).

No, I am merely recognising a fact and using Catholic principles to explain it. There is nothing for me to do about it…except pray.

SFD

 

[louey]

So, what you are saying is that I, as a Catholic Christian, am a ‘servant of satan’, and 'I belong to sects created by satan"?

Is that what you believe, but you have resisted to say?

peace

If you were Catholic you would not be a member of a non-catholic Church. The vii church is not the Catholic Church, and yes, it is a church whose author is satan. If you are Catholic, then you would know that the conciliar church does not believe in the Catholic faith; the conciliar church rejects the dogma’s of the Catholic Church. If you are Catholic you would recognize a heretic can not be the head of the Catholic Church; how can one who is not a member of the Church be the Head? JPII was a notorious heretic in word and deed. Kissing the Koran was a blasphemous act; as were many of the things JPII said and did and wrote. He was an antichrist, as were all the popes of the conciliar church. Believe it !!! We are living in the time spoken about by Paul; he warned us, " Galatians 1 Found 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." The conciliar church preaches a new Gospel. JPII’s “New Evangelization” the new mass, the new code of canon law, the new catechism, all reflecting the false doc’s of VII. Conclusion: A new church, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! The false church spoke of in the book of apocalypse, posing as the bride of Christ; the true Catholic Church.

 

[catharina]

The Church is those who hold the Catholic faith. One can call themselves catholic, but it means nothing if one does not believe in the Catholic faith. I too thought I was Catholic. I found out I was not, I never knew the Catholic faith; I was brought up in the conciliar church, and believed what the documents of VII taught. I thought this was the Catholic faith. God opened my eyes to the truth. He lead me to the Catholic faith. I was shocked, saddened and over joyed. Truth is absolute, there can be only one truth, and the truth is found only in the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

I was baptized into the Catholic faith on Jan 10th, 1946, in the Catholic Church. I have never abandoned the Catholic Church and God CAN NEVER abandon the Catholic Church. So exactly why did YOU leave the Catholic Church?

 

[louey]

So, what you are saying is that I, as a Catholic Christian, am a ‘servant of satan’, and 'I belong to sects created by satan"?

Is that what you believe, but you have resisted to say?

peace

I was baptized into the Catholic faith on Jan 10th, 1946, in the Catholic Church. I have never abandoned the Catholic Church and God CAN NEVER abandon the Catholic Church. So exactly why did YOU leave the Catholic Church?

God has not nor never will abandon the Catholic Church; I agree whole heartedly. I didn’t leave the Catholic Church; I FOUND the Catholic Church; the Catholic faith.

 

[mgrfin]

:

SFD

There is a law of God governing human beings, which is antecedent, and far greater obligation, which was binding on the Gentiles, who had never heard of the law of Moses, and to which all men are subject, even though they recognize neither the law of the Gospel, nor the authority of the Church, nor the ruling of the State. It is called the natural law, the reflection in the rational creature of the eternal law of God, and therefore, an expression in man of the very essence of God.

*The substance of the 10 Commandments, with the exception of the third commandment, is nothing more than a written expression of the natural law. *If I tell a man to live according to his nature, and to live in a manner befitting of the dignity of a human being, I am merely telling him to obey the natural law, which is a reflection in his nature of the eternal law of God. In telling a man to do good and to avoid evil, I am telling him not to break the commandments of God. The two sets of ideas are mutually inclusive.

It is the natural law, which is written in the hearts of mankind, which pre-exists before Moses walked up the mountain, and obligates everyone. What is written in the hearts of man is this natural law – nothing about false worship, nothing about honoring thy father and thy mother, nothing about ‘keep holy the Sabbath day. The 10 commandments had to do with the Covenant between God and his people. The natural law the law written in the hearts of the rational man.

It is the natural law which is written in the hearts of men; not the 10 commandments, which is Old Testament Revelation.

peace

 

[catharina]

God has not nor never will abandon the Catholic Church; I agree whole heartedly. I didn’t leave the Catholic Church; I FOUND the Catholic Church; the Catholic faith.

The Catholic Church did not move. Why did you? Very sad for you.

 

[louey]

The Catholic Church did not move. Why did you? Very sad for you.

Not sad for me; sad for you. You are being deceived Catharina. I have hope for salvation; you are lost if you die outside the Catholic Church. Seek the truth Catharina, I say this to you in charity.

 

[SFD]

SFD

There is a law of God governing human beings, which is antecedent, and far greater obligation, which was binding on the Gentiles, who had never heard of the law of Moses, and to which all men are subject, even though they recognize neither the law of the Gospel, nor the authority of the Church, nor the ruling of the State. It is called the natural law, the reflection in the rational creature of the eternal law of God, and therefore, an expression in man of the very essence of God.

The substance of the 10 Commandments, with the exception of the third commandment, is nothing more than a written expression of the natural law. If I tell a man to live according to his nature, and to live in a manner befitting of the dignity of a human being, I am merely telling him to obey the natural law, which is a reflection in his nature of the eternal law of God. In telling a man to do good and to avoid evil, I am telling him not to break the commandments of God. The two sets of ideas are mutually inclusive.

It is the natural law, which is written in the hearts of mankind, which pre-exists before Moses walked up the mountain, and obligates everyone. What is written in the hearts of man is this natural law – nothing about false worship, nothing about honoring thy father and thy mother, nothing about ‘keep holy the Sabbath day. The 10 commandments had to do with the Covenant between God and his people. The natural law the law written in the hearts of the rational man.

It is the natural law which is written in the hearts of men; not the 10 commandments, which is Old Testament Revelation.

peace

What is the source for this garble?

My source was the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Here is another source:

Baltimore Catechism No. 4, by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead

Nihil Obstat:
D. J. McMahon
Censor Librorum

Imprimatur:

• Michael Augustine
  Archbishop of New York
  New York, September 5, 1891

Nihil Obstat:
Arthur J. Scanlan, S.T.D.
Censor Librorum

Imprimatur:

• Patrick J. Hayes, D.D.
  Archbishop of New York
  New York, June 29, 1921

Lesson 29
ON THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD

310 Q. Is it enough to belong to God’s Church in order to be saved?
A. It is not enough to belong to the Church in order to be saved, but we must also keep the Commandments of God and of the Church.

We call some commandments the Commandments of God and others the commandments of the Church. We do so only to distinguish the Commandments that God gave to Moses from those that the Church made afterwards. They are all the commandments of God, for whatever laws or commandments the Church makes, it makes them under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and by God’s authority. It would be a mortal sin to break the commandments of the Church, just as it would be to break the
Commandments of God. You must remember that the Ten Commandments always existed from the time of Adam, but they were not written till God gave them to Moses. You know that it was always a sin to worship false gods, to blaspheme, to disobey parents, to kill, etc.; for you know Cain was punished by God for the murder of his brother Abel (Gen. 5), and that took place while Adam was still alive.

SFD

 

[mgrfin]

SFD

I stand by my own words. It is not garble.

peace

 

[SFD]

I stand by my own words. It is not garble.

peace

Just preserving your original response of such great depth.

Can’t you just admit you were wrong?

SFD

 

[fix]

The natural law is enscribed in the hearts of mankind: “do good, avoid evil”. ‘do unto others as I would have them do unto me’.

But specifics of these generalities differ as there are nations on the earth.

It is not true to say that the 10 commandments are inscribed in the hearts of men. The Decalogue is revealed truth, not natural truth. God gave the Decalogue to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

peace

This is from the CCC:

**2070 **The Ten Commandments belong to God’s revelation. At the same time they teach us the true humanity of man. They bring to light the essential duties, and therefore, indirectly, the fundamental rights inherent in the nature of the human person. The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law:

From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind him of them. This was the Decalogue.31
**2071 **The commandments of the Decalogue, although accessible to reason alone, have been revealed. To attain a complete and certain understanding of the requirements of the natural law, sinful humanity needed this revelation:

A full explanation of the commandments of the Decalogue became necessary in the state of sin because the light of reason was obscured and the will had gone astray.32 We know God’s commandments through the divine revelation proposed to us in the Church, and through the voice of moral conscience.

**The obligation of the Decalogue **
**2072 **Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, *grave *obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

 

[catharina]

This is from the CCC:

Your quote 2072 is preceded by this:

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section 2, Life in Christ: 2070, stating simply that ~ the Ten Commandments belong to God’s revelation. ~ The ENTIRE SECTION refers to Life in Christ and the way in which the Ten Commandments are engraved in the human heart by God through Baptism. You should read ALL of Part Three, Section 2, rather than taking a few lines out of context. The Ten Commandments do not land in the human heart as part of the natural law.