Salvation questions from some Protestant brothers

[Vico]

Such contrition remits venial sins

No error. Remission is of the venial sins that one has contrition for. Perfect contrition remits venial sins (Catechism 1452), so this forgiveness in the Eucharist is for the case of imperfect contrition for venial sins.

Baltimore Catechism, Revised Edition (1941), Lesson 30

389. Will God forgive us any sin unless we have true contrition for it?

God will not forgive us any sin, whether mortal or venial, unless we have true contrition for it.

Now therefore saith the Lord: "Be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting and in weeping and in mourning. And rend your hearts and not your garments. (Jl 2,12-13)

https://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/

 

[Mishakel]

This sounds confusing:

Remission is of the venial sins that one has contrition for. Perfect contrition remits venial sins

vs

so this forgiveness in the Eucharist is for the case of imperfect contrition for venial sins.

My only point was that venial sins are forgiven during the eucharist. To which the Catechism agrees. The reason for my entire point is according to scripture we are forgiven or made righteous according to our faith. I don’t want to re-post all the scripture used but none of that scripture has been refuted. For example Paul went into great detail concerning Abraham was made righteous by God according to his faith. This was before circumcision, before Isaac being born, before offering Isaac as a sacrifice etc…

Likewise Paul was made righteous when he put his faith into Christ after meeting near Damascus. This faith, and faith alone , is how Paul was born again spoken of by Christ. As I pointed out before Paul knew who Jesus and the Christians were and what they believed. He simply had no faith in Christ before their meeting.

If like scripture teaches our sins are forgiven because of our faith, no other thing can bestow God’s grace. This is the entire point behind faith alone which seems to be misconstrued into one can believe Jesus died and rose and will still reach salvation no matter how they live the rest of their life.

 

[Vico]

This sounds confusing:

Vico:

Remission is of the venial sins that one has contrition for. Perfect contrition remits venial sins

vs

so this forgiveness in the Eucharist is for the case of imperfect contrition for venial sins.

My only point was that venial sins are forgiven during the eucharist. To which the Catechism agrees. The reason for my entire point is according to scripture we are forgiven or made righteous according to our faith…

Surly a person is not damned due to venial final impenitence. One in the state of sanctifying grace is righteous (righteousness is justice). It is the “the obedience of faith” that is needed.

The catechism does not say that all venial sins are remitted through the Eucharist. In fact it points out that the full benefit of the sacrament is not always received. If a person has no contrition for mortal or venial sins they are not remitted. Forgiveness is conditional. Those venial sins for which there is contrition are either already forgiven (perfect contrition) or not (imperfect contrition). The method is by strengthening charity in the person – the living charity – inasmuch as it arouses in the soul the fervor of charity, to which alone venial sin is opposed. The person must then choose to repent of them after which there is forgiveness.

Catechism

1394 As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins.

1453 … [imperfect contrition] is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution.

Baltimore Catechism, Revised Edition (1941), Lesson 30

389. Will God forgive us any sin unless we have true contrition for it?
God will not forgive us any sin, whether mortal or venial, unless we have true contrition for it.

Now therefore saith the Lord: "Be converted to me with all your heart, in fasting and in weeping and in mourning. And rend your hearts and not your garments. (Jl 2,12-13)

https://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/

 

[TARRAT]

I’ve talked to many protestants who believe OSAS, their official church may be different but they believed OSAS.

 

[Hodos]

Just as I have talked to many Catholics who have severe misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine. The twisting of doctrines that are not accepted by that Church body is not a condemnation of the actual doctrine.

 

[TARRAT]

Protestant twisting?

 

[Hodos]

Protestant twisting?

Just as I have talked to many Catholics who have severe misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine.

Not unless you are confused by the term Catholic. That being said, the confusing of the Reformed understanding of Perseverance of the Saints to mean Once Saved Always Saved is a Catholic Answers red herring that seeks to misinterpret the meaning of their doctrines so as not to have to address the doctrine properly. And that is coming from a non-reformed person who does not hold to Perseverance of the Saints, but seeks to accurately represent it when discussing it for doctrinal evaluation.

 

[Vico]

DiZent:

OSAS is a grave error, since they do not know/understand the need for continued reconciliation - could die in a state of mortal sin believing that their one profession of faith was enough.

Luckily no Protestant denomination that I am aware of holds to this doctrine.

Eternal Security is a belief of the free grace theology adopted by some Baptist and non-denominationalists. It is different than Calvinism Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[TULIPed]

Why thank you Hodos. No matter what anyone else says about you, I think you’re a good egg

 

[TULIPed]

Holy cow! (I mean that entirely in an idiomatic and non-idolotrous way) You guys are all making me feel really warm and fuzzy and not like the (totally depraved) Cavlinist heretical leper in the corner. Gosh guys, you love me…you really love me!!

 

[Unique_name]

This thread makes me happy. (For what it’s worth, I used to go to a Calvinist church and that’s where my daughter was baptised, so as much as I tend to think they all hate me now for being Catholic, I’m still fond of most of them).

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’ve had this discussion with some of my Protestant friends who profess Once Saved, Always Saved. They tell me that when you accept Jesus into your heart, all your sins are forgiven - past, present & future - that if you sin again after accepting Jesus, you are already forgiven - there is nothing more you need to do

I have friends who hold to this also, but it is not Biblical. No where in Scripture does Jesus say this is how we attain salvation.

So if one starts with fervor, then loses fervor, they were “never saved”?

In all charity, that is a backward understanding of what Jesus taught and not correct.

According to Jesus one who perseveres to the end will be saved. It is not that we were never saved to begin with if we stop persevering but we must persevere until we are saved.

Matthew 24:13 he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

 

[TULIPed]

I have friends who hold to this also, but it is not Biblical. No where in Scripture does Jesus say this is how we attain salvation.

As do I. And I agree with your analysis. Dietrich Bonhoeffer would call this “cheap grace”.

And I have Catholic friends who believe that they can sin as much as they want and as long as they confess it and go to Mass, the sin counter resets and they can be as carnal as they want. I also know plenty of Catholics who don’t go to confession before Mass. Poor catechesis doesn’t discriminate it would seem…

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I also know plenty of Catholics who don’t go to confession before Mass

Only if one is in mortal sin do they need to go to confession before Mass.

sin as much as they want and as long as they confess it and go to Mass, the sin counter resets and they can be as carnal as they want.

While i absolutely agree we should never believe we can sin as much as we want and it is best to go to confession at least once a month, in a way there is a reset or what Scripture says in Galatians a restoring to grace after confession.

 

[TULIPed]

in a way there is a reset or what Scripture says in Galatians a restoring after confession.

And…in a way, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints says that once Christ becomes your shepherd, he’ll always go after and find you, no matter how lost you become. That doesn’t mean you have a license to burn all your maps and throw away your compass…

Ok, that’s an awful analogy, but you get my point I hope

 

[TULIPed]

Only if one is in mortal sin do they need to go to confession before Mass.

Trust me…there’s plenty of mortal, venial, chocolate, vanilla, really the whole enchilada of sins going on with the friends I’m thinking about…

 

[MagdalenaRita]

once Christ becomes your shepherd, he’ll always go after and find you, no matter how lost you become.

True, and it is our continual saying yes to God that keeps us in right relationship with Him

There’s plenty of mortal, venial,…sins going on with the friends I’m thinking about…

I’m sure we can all think of people Catholic and protestant alike who take advantage of God’s grace as we are all sinners.

 

[TULIPed]

Amen and amen.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

I always took that to mean people who left the Church; Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry, etc…

From a Protestant perspective, they would consider them to having leaving the church. If anything, Luther never left it - he was excommunicated.