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steve-b
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And the light is rather obvious AND brightsteve-b:
Preach it @steve-b! Now you’re talking! @johan where r u? Steve’s seen the light!
#potterandtheclay
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Mishakel
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You didn’t answer my question concerning Saul’s conversion to Paul.
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annad347
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@Vico that still has nothing to do with what I said.
would it have been better if I said Faith in God’s mercy, grace and love will lead me to my salvation?
would it have been better if I said Faith in God’s mercy, grace and love will lead me to my salvation?
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Vico
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As long as there is no presumption, for one can be lead but not finish in grace. Catechism
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steve-b
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Short explanation:
Saul had a blinding experience on his way to Damascus by Jesus.
A true conversion experience. Ananias is given the power to restore Saul’s sight, which he does, and he Baptizes Saul in Damascus. After 3 yrs of preaching, he goes up to Jerusalem. He was received as in accepted by the apostles.add to the story
HERE
AND
HERE
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annad347
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@Vico, I have faith not presumption.
I have Faith in The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit will lead me to my salvation.
You don’t think that’s enough for me to be lead to my salvation?
I have Faith in The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit will lead me to my salvation.
You don’t think that’s enough for me to be lead to my salvation?
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Vico
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You can be lead, but will you follow?
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annad347
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NOW that’s a excellent question.
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Justin_Mary
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Why do you call me Lord, Lord but refuse to do what I tell you?
Unless a man gnaws at my flesh, he has no life within him.
Behold your mother.
Follow me.
Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
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annad347
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neither do I but its a start.
When I say that, My faith in The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit will lead me to my salvation its just the beginning to the journey to my salvation, but without that faith… without true, honest, trusting accepting of that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior… everything else is meaning less.
When you have it, when you believe it God’s will will be done, He will lead and you will follow.
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Mishakel
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You’re still not answering the question.
Saul was indeed visited in a vision from Jesus that ultimately left him blind. Before Saul ever meets up with Ananias what changed in Saul?
Saul was indeed visited in a vision from Jesus that ultimately left him blind. Before Saul ever meets up with Ananias what changed in Saul?
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steve-b
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He became knowledgeable of the truth of Jesus AND how Saul persecuting members of Jesus Church was persecuting Jesus.
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Mishakel
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The way you’re answering is confusing. Do you agree Saul knew who Jesus was before their interaction in which Saul was left blinded? If your answer is yes, and it should be because Saul knew both Jesus and what the Christians believed about Christ, than you’re left with faith alone being the difference before and after the meeting. Saul had no faith in Jesus prior to their meeting near Damascus. This is the key to everything. It wasn’t that Saul was ignorant of the data, he willingly chose not to believe or put his faith in Jesus. This is what changed in Saul. Putting his faith in Jesus saved him and all he had to do is believe with all his heart. Obviously this is the beginning of Paul’s journey as a great Christian but faith is what transformed Saul. It was this being born again spiritually that Christ described.
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steve-b
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Saul knew who Jesus was. He knew all that happened. Saul was like Thomas. Thomas wouldn’t believe either till he saw Jesus and actually talked to Him and put his fingers in his wounds. And Jesus allowed Thomas to do that. Saul’s direct encounter with Jesus post resurrection, was the same. That direct experience, with Jesus and his conversation with Jesus, that encounter, changed Saul’s whole understanding.
As for the scriptural definition of faith, [Hebrews 11:1 faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ]. There was no faith alone here.
Saul and Thomas, actually experienced physically, and spoke with the risen Jesus personally.
You don’t know Saul who would soon go by His Roman name…Paul.
If Saul didn’t obey Jesus, And live that way, Saul would have been screwed. No where in Paul’s writings, does Paul believe in faith alone,.
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Mishakel
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This isn’t true. Thomas believed Jesus was the Messiah like the rest of the disciples. Thomas doubted after the death of Jesus, not before. Saul never believed Jesus was the Messiah until their meeting near Damascus. It’s two different scenarios. Saul wasn’t just a doubter of the resurrection, he never believed Jesus was the Messiah. Do you at least agree on that clarification?
Saul knew who Jesus was prior to their meeting. All the Pharisees knew who Jesus was and what he claimed. Jesus didn’t rename Saul, Luke did. A change happened to Saul upon meeting with Jesus. That change was faith and belief that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. You’re free to not believe that but that’s what happened. That’s the necessary element in all who are to be born again which Christ spoke of.
I know we read the same passages but I will probably never understand how we can read the same things and walk away with two completely different understandings
You say that Paul never preached about faith alone and yet Paul preached in detail that it is faith and only faith which justifies us. Have you read Romans 4?
Paul states starting in verse 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Righteousness was bestowed on Abraham prior to circumcision, prior to Sarah becoming pregnant, and prior to the offering of Isaac. If you believe otherwise your argument is with Paul who you keep claiming I do not know. Righteousness was bestowed on Abraham because of his faith in God.
Paul goes onto clarify it even more so: 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Do you see? Abraham wasn’t given righteousness because he offered up Isaac. It was only granted by God because of Abraham’s faith and it was indeed faith alone.
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steve-b
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I agree
He and everyone who put Jesus to death.
As I posted previously
Re: Saul’s name change, HERE
You made faith “alone” your point. Faith was NOT alone.
Re: Abraham,I know we read the same passages but I will probably never understand how we can read the same things and walk away with two completely different understandings
You say that Paul never preached about faith alone and yet Paul preached in detail that it is faith and only faith which justifies us.
have you read Romans 4? Paul states starting in verse 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath where of to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Paul goes onto clarify it even more so: 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Do you see? Abraham wasn’t given righteousness because he offered up Isaac. It was only granted by God because of Abraham’s faith and it was indeed faith alone.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham built an altar, put his son on the altar, raised his knife to kill his son, …but what happened? Who stopped Abraham from doing what he was seconds away from doing?
Abraham’s faith was in action. It wasn’t faith alone. Had Abraham not been stopped, Abraham would have finished the act, and sacrificed his son.
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Mishakel
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I think you are confusing what faith alone means. Paul clearly defines faith and only faith is what can bestow God’s grace or righteousness. He makes this clear when speaking of Abraham. I’ll try to make this as easy as I can, no disrespect meant at all.
Do you believe Paul when he said Abraham was counted as righteous because of his faith in God? This is why Paul wrote For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath where of to glory; but not before God. Paul knew Abraham was guilty of sin as we all are. Abraham could not go before God and present himself guiltless based on his works, deeds, or keeping the commandments / law. Does that make sense to you?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like you think grace or righteousness by faith alone means a person can say openly with his mouth or heart that he believes Jesus was real and raised from the dead and then live the rest of their life as wickedly as they want and still inherit the kingdom of God. This is not what faith alone means in scripture. Faith alone simply means when we truly believe in Jesus as the Messiah we receive God’s grace or righteousness. The rest of our lives are to be a living proof of that dedication. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We are to do all the good things mentioned by Jesus and the disciples but here is the caveat. Doing good works or deeds or following the commandments of God does not grant salvation alone. Again, to reiterate, faith alone, all by itself, is what allows God to bestow righteousness, forgiveness, grace, and justification. It is a gift we can not receive from doing works, following the commandments, living a good life etc… This is why Abraham was counted as being righteous long before offering up Isaac.
I hope this makes sense and doesn’t sound confusing lol
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steve-b
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And neither does faithsteve-b:
I think you are confusing what faith alone means. Paul clearly defines faith and only faith is what can bestow God’s grace or righteousness. He makes this clear when speaking of Abraham. I’ll try to make this as easy as I can, no disrespect meant at all.
Do you believe Paul when he said Abraham was counted as righteous because of his faith in God? This is why Paul wrote For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath where of to glory; but not before God. Paul knew Abraham was guilty of sin as we all are. Abraham could not go before God and present himself guiltless based on his works, deeds, or keeping the commandments / law. Does that make sense to you?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like you think grace or righteousness by faith alone means a person can say openly with his mouth or heart that he believes Jesus was real and raised from the dead and then live the rest of their life as wickedly as they want and still inherit the kingdom of God. This is not what faith alone means in scripture. Faith alone simply means when we truly believe in Jesus as the Messiah we receive God’s grace or righteousness. The rest of our lives are to be a living proof of that dedication. We are to be in the world but not of the world. We are to do all the good things mentioned by Jesus and the disciples but here is the caveat. Doing good works or deeds or following the commandments of God does not grant salvation alone.
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Mishakel
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Correct salvation comes from both faith and following through or living a lifestyle that proves that faith.
My point still stands to which you won’t give me lol that the righteousness or grace of God comes from the moment we put our faith in him just as Paul described about Abraham. This also is what changed in Paul in the meeting with Jesus near Damascus.
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steve-b
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Ergo faith is NOT alonesteve-b:
Correct salvation comes from both faith and following through or living a lifestyle that proves that faith.
Whether we say yes or no to grace,
✓ grace from God is given to all, and always comes first… even if one rejects it
✓ grace Eph 2:8-10 what happens to grace and faith,. for the one who doesn’t do what they were created to do?
✓ Faith in the end, doesn’t rank first with Paul. HERE so faith can’t be alone.
AND, Paul agrees with James
✓ faith without good works, is a dead faith. And a dead faith won’t justify nor save. HERE
AND
Righteousness is a synonym for justice or justification. HERE
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