Salvation questions from some Protestant brothers

[steve-b]

Jen7:

Perhaps that they’ve only received one of the three Sacraments of Initiation? (Baptism, Holy Eucharist, and Confirmation)

Other churches offer that. I believe the Lutheran church I started going to have mentioned doing Confirmation. They do have Baptism and have Holy Eucharist.

Another church I went to did the Eucharist once a month, it sure about Confirmation, but I believe they do Baptism for adults…

Anyway if the church perform the three Sacraments of Initiation then you can receive salvation as a non-Catholic…correct?

Also every church Ive been too does confessions of sins but directly to God, and believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

Some people are making it sound like if you’re not Cathoic you’re not saved in the eyes of the Lord.

If one is baptized (meant to bring one into the Catholic Church) but then that person doesn’t live their life "in" the Catholic Church, then it’s like them standing outside the Church looking at everything from the outside, not participating in the life giving sacraments.

What Protestants, regardless of stripe, “call” communion or Eucharist, isn’t what we understand the Eucharist to be. They have no ability to make THAT sacrament happen. They have no valid holy orders, ergo no valid ability to consecrate and make the Eucharist happen.

NOR do they have the ability to forgive mortal sin. Again, no valid holy orders in any group no matter their name so that sacrament can’t happen for them either.

So,

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do” HERE ?

 

[Mishakel]

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do” HERE ?

Didn’t Jesus also explain saying “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

 

[Vico]

…

Some people are making it sound like if you’re not Catholic you’re not saved in the eyes of the Lord.

One cannot be certain of individual salvation without a divine revelation of it.

Catechism

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. 60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. 61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. 62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood , like the desire for Baptism , brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism , the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” 64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

60 Cf. Jn 3:5.
61 Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.
62 Cf. Mk 16:16.
63 GS 22 § 5; cf. LG 16; AG 7.
64 Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.

 

[steve-b]

Jen7:

‘reception of the sacraments is a sign of predestination’

what does this mean? tried looking it up but still not sure.

And it does sound like if you’re not Catholic, you’re not saved… even if you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

A few thoughts on this

The blessed sacrament, the Eucharist, gives life. It is the source and summit of our faith

1324 and 2031

I gave this link in another post to you HERE ? which explains the importance of the Eucharist especially when it comes to Jesus being Lord and Savior

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do” HERE ?

Didn’t Jesus also explain saying "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Yep!

Re: Spirit and life. There are no other realities. That covers it all. Therefore, what Jesus just said to THEM covers everything. And by what He said, He didn’t just negate what He just taught them. Finish the quote…

"But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

And the result?​

66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

If Jesus was only talking spiritually or even symbolically, why did they leave? And if they misunderstood Jesus, why didn’t Jesus go after them to clear things up? Point being, before Jesus even gave them the bread of life discourse, He knew they would leave. He knew they had no faith. He knew that no matter what He said to them, they would object.

 

[annad347]

What Protestants, regardless of stripe, “call” communion or Eucharist, isn’t what we understand the Eucharist to be.

Isn’t what you understand the Eucharist to be… that’s okay. I’m not Protestant I don’t know what they think the Eucharist is.

I believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do”

Matthew 26: 26-29 RSVCE (how do you do the link?)

The Institution of the Lord’s Supper

26 Now as they were eating,[d] Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the[e] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

I’m also not a priest… I’m not sure what any of them do, but I have faith that they are blessing the bread and wine so we can be filled with the body and blood of Christ in memory of Him.

One cannot be certain of individual salvation without a divine revelation of it.

one can not be certain of anything without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

If Jesus was only talking spiritually or even symbolically, why did they leave? And if they misunderstood Jesus, why didn’t Jesus go after them to clear things up? Point being, before Jesus even gave them the bread of life discourse, He knew they would leave. He knew they had no faith. He knew that no matter what He said to them, they would object.

Thank God I have faith in the Lord.

I sorry I’m not really sure what you want from me?

 

[annad347]

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

Sounds like God is giving everyone a chance… just like Jesus said, we all belong to Him… even if we don’t know it.

 

[Vico]

steve-b:

What Protestants, regardless of stripe, “call” communion or Eucharist, isn’t what we understand the Eucharist to be.

Isn’t what you understand the Eucharist to be… that’s okay. I’m not Protestant I don’t know what they think the Eucharist is.

I believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do”

Matthew 26: 26-29 RSVCE (how do you do the link?)

The Institution of the Lord’s Supper

26 Now as they were eating,[d] Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the[e] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

I’m also not a priest… I’m not sure what any of them do, but I have faith that they are blessing the bread and wine so we can be filled with the body and blood of Christ in memory of Him.

One cannot be certain of individual salvation without a divine revelation of it.

one can not be certain of anything without faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

…

Even with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ one cannot be certain of salvation without divine revelation.

Council of Trent, Session VI, canon XVI:

If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

 

[Vico]

…
Sounds like God is giving everyone a chance… just like Jesus said, we all belong to Him… even if we don’t know it.

We at least have hope of it. But best to avail ourselves of the Holy Sacraments for we see in Matt 10:

33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Sirach2]

Sirach2:

Since quotes 3 and 4 came from Tim Staples AND the Holy Office, you will need to take your argument there, not to me. I’m out, remember?

If we consider Jesus point, Few Are Saved as He is looking forward in time, then I’d say, based on that, most people are considered not ignorant, but guilty by their own doing.

They are ALSO points I’m referencing , in the article you posted.

NO. You are interpreting Tim Staples’ points in your own manner, and not in accord with what he wrote. This is very misleading.

 

[annad347]

Even with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ one cannot be certain of salvation without divine revelation.

You dont think my faith in God was a divine revelation? JK’ing

Seriously we both have different ideas what divine revelation means. To me its more physical and spiritual.

Matt 10:

33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

So true,

God help me if I ever deny my Father.

 

[Vico]

…

Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 262:

The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this that without a special revelation nobody can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for the achieving of justification. The impossibility of the certainty of faith, however, by no means excludes a high moral certainty supported by the testimony of conscience. Cf. S. Tho. 1, 2, 112, 5.

This is what St. Thomas Aquinas wrote on knowledge of grace:
Summa Theologiae > First Part of the Second Part > Question 112. The cause of grace
Article 5. Whether man can know that he has grace?

I answer that, There are three ways of knowing a thing: first, by revelation, and thus anyone may know that he has grace, for God by a special privilege reveals this at times to some, in order that the joy of safety may begin in them even in this life, and that they may carry on toilsome works with greater trust and greater energy, and may bear the evils of this present life, as when it was said to Paul (2 Corinthians 12:9): “My grace is sufficient for thee.”

Secondly, a man may, of himself, know something, and with certainty; and in this way no one can know that he has grace. For certitude about a thing can only be had when we may judge of it by its proper principle. Thus it is by undemonstrable universal principles that certitude is obtained concerning demonstrative conclusions. Now no one can know he has the knowledge of a conclusion if he does not know its principle. But the principle of grace and its object is God, Who by reason of His very excellence is unknown to us, according to Job 36:26: “Behold God is great, exceeding our knowledge.” And hence His presence in us and His absence cannot be known with certainty, according to Job 9:11: “If He come to me, I shall not see Him; if He depart I shall not understand.” And hence man cannot judge with certainty that he has grace, according to 1 Corinthians 4:3-4: “But neither do I judge my own self . . . but He that judgeth me is the Lord.”

Thirdly, things are known conjecturally by signs; and thus anyone may know he has grace, when he is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin. And thus it is written (Apocalypse 2:17): “To him that overcometh I will give the hidden manna . . . which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it,” because whoever receives it knows, by experiencing a certain sweetness, which he who does not receive it, does not experience. Yet this knowledge is imperfect; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 4:4): “I am not conscious to myself of anything, yet am I not hereby justified,” since, according to Psalm 18:13: “Who can understand sins? From my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord, and from those of others spare Thy servant.”

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2112.htm#article5

 

[steve-b]

What Protestants, regardless of stripe, “call” communion or Eucharist, isn’t what we understand the Eucharist to be.

annad347:

I believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

How can they “do” what Jesus said to “do”

annad347:

Matthew 26: 26-29 RSVCE (how do you do the link?)

The Institution of the Lord’s Supper

26 Now as they were eating,[d] Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the[e] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

I’m also not a priest… I’m not sure what any of them do, but I have faith that they are blessing the bread and wine so we can be filled with the body and blood of Christ in memory of Him.

anna,

For clarification, I’m saying

to make the Eucharist happen, one must be a validly ordained priest. Protestantism, no matter the name they go by, has the power to validly ordain… therefore, they can’t (consecrate) make the Eucharist happen, no matter WHAT someone in Protestantism “believes” says, or performs on their own.

In Luke’s Gospel 22:9, we see what Jesus says at the Last Supper, to His apostles, to make that happen. When Jesus said to THEM, His apostles, “DO This"ποιεῖτε in memory of me, that word 'DO” ποιεῖτε is when He ordained them with the power to DO exactly what He is doing. Namely changing mere bread and wine into His body and blood. Be sure to open the link for the definition.

Jesus ordained them, and valid succession from the apostles, in the apiscopate ordination, is required for that validity , and to maintain that validity.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Sirach2:

Since quotes 3 and 4 came from Tim Staples AND the Holy Office, you will need to take your argument there, not to me. I’m out, remember?

If we consider Jesus point, Few Are Saved as He is looking forward in time, then I’d say, based on that, most people are considered not ignorant, but guilty by their own doing.

They are ALSO points I’m referencing , in the article you posted.

NO. You are interpreting Tim Staples’ points in your own manner, and not in accord with what he wrote. This is very misleading.

And that is YOUR interpretation

 

[steve-b]

Vico:

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

Sounds like God is giving everyone a chance… just like Jesus said, we all belong to Him… even if we don’t know it.

Everyone DOES have a chance. It’s too bad as He said, that few follow His commands,… to the end

 

[annad347]

When did simple faith in Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ stop being enough?

 

[Vico]

When did simple faith in Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ stop being enough?

Faith must be present at the end of life.

Mark 3

28 Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. 29
But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.”

 

[steve-b]

When did simple faith in Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ stop being enough?

Q: where in scripture does it teach, faith is simple?​

I’d just point to

When Paul writes to the Church of Rome, the first time he mentions faith, he says “obedience of faith” ( Rom 1:5) The last time he mentions faith in Romans, he says “obedience of faith” (Rom 16:26). In between those references, are the particulars on obedience of faith. IOW, Faith has a whole lot to it. It’s for sure NOT simple.

To summarize a point James makes, faith is NOT alone

And Peter says we need to supplement our faith with 7 attributes without stopping or we will fall

 

[Justin_Mary]

What I mean by okay is that you have wccepted Jesus as youre lLord and Savior, was baptized, received The Holy Spirit, living, doing and following God’s will… your sins are forgiven by God, allowing your soul to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Not the right biblical offical words but you know what I mean…I hope)

I think you pose a good question, one I have been thinking about for a long time. I remember Jesus saying, “Unless you eat my flesh you have no life within you.”

I also struggled with that saying. I mean we can see these non-Catholics are alive.

But is Jesus alive in them? I don’t know, & don’t know how to prove one way or the other. But I do know there are a lot of reasons I do what I do & though I often convince myself I’m doing what I do for the love of God I know love of self is in some way my motivation.

An act of pure love of God is rare for me & I receive regularly. I’m nobody, just another guy trying to make sense of all this. But I know love of self is deeply embedded in my soul & it doesn’t take much to convince me love of self is love of God.

Without the Mass I don’t see how a person can get to pure love of God.

 

[steve-b]

annad347:

What I mean by okay is that you have wccepted Jesus as youre lLord and Savior, was baptized, received The Holy Spirit, living, doing and following God’s will… your sins are forgiven by God, allowing your soul to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Not the right biblical offical words but you know what I mean…I hope)

I think you pose a good question, one I have been thinking about for a long time. I remember Jesus saying, “Unless you eat my flesh you have no life within you.”

I also struggled with that saying. I mean we can see these non-Catholics are alive.

Except Jesus pointed to “life” in a different way… Supernatural grace…abide in Him and He abides in us.

Justin_Mary:

But is Jesus alive in them? I don’t know, & don’t know how to prove one way or the other. But I do know there are a lot of reasons I do what I do & though I often convince myself I’m doing what I do for the love of God I know love of self is in some way my motivation.

AND Jesus equates “life” and “abides in”, WITH the Eucharist. I don’t see anywhere in scripture where that association exists absent the Eucharist.

Justin_Mary:

An act of pure love of God …
Without the Mass I don’t see how a person can get to pure love of God.