Salvation questions from some Protestant brothers

[annad347]

what do you mean by a language that everyone could understand?

Someone answered… but basically I meant they weren’t Catholic.

You ‘feel’ full. But are you really?

Yes but if the food is real good I’ll aways want more.

It’s not a ‘Catholic’ table it is the table of the feast of the bridegroom.

I dont know what this means.

do you believe it or do you know it? History says it is the church founded by Jesus Christ. Go back in time and you will see that the Catholic Church was the only church in existence at the time of the apostles.

I believe it. I believe there was a church created by Peter by Jesus’s words. As time went by some Bishops took advantage of their positions. Some Bishops were separated from others with disagreements and understanding. Then some very important men got together to decided these scriptures were right and should be placed in a bible… Im sure they prayed about it, discussed it, researched it then prayed some more but because others disagreed they seperated from the Church created by Jesus. Which is why we have different denominations of Jesus Church.

I also believe even with the seperation of churches we are still one church because we all worship the one True God. Believe Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour… are baptized and receive The Holy Spirit… in name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

It has been said a few times that if I was Catholic I was missing something in my salvation… the something Im missing was because I wasnt Catholic… so how is that not saying if Im not Cathoic Im not saved… what am I half saved?

But others post scripture that says that I am even if Im not Catholic so that is kind of confussing.

 

[Sirach2]

so how is that not saying if I’m not Cathoic I’m not saved… what am I half saved?

But others post scripture that says that I am even if I’m not Catholic so that is kind of confusing.

Anna dear, talking about being saved is typical Protestant wording. They believe once they accept Jesus as their Savior, they are saved forever, since He died for all of their sins - past, present, and future. No worries about getting into heaven therefore, even if they sin.

Even Catholics believe it is possible to lose their faith and salvation. So let’s not discuss whether or not you’re ‘saved.’

Did you read my post about sharing with us what caused you to leave the Catholic Church? That is a good place to start. I am glad you are in a Catholic study group, so maybe a lot of your anxieties can be resolved there. But I think we are here for you, and would like discuss it further, if you are willing.

The question you asked and to which I responded with certain scriptures, assumed you were simply a non-Catholic, and those scriptures definitely would apply. But I would have to share new ones in light of this new information.

 

[annad347]

I never said that. The Church teaches that it is possible. Simply read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Possible, if one is invincibly ignorant of the truth.

Now you are saying the Church before you were specific it was a Cathoic church.

*Jesus Himself said Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

I totally agree. There are some very bad people out there. People who use the Lords name for their own personal advantage and very evil things. We always need to make sure we are doing God’s will. Pray we are following the Lord’s path

 

[annad347]

But I was not aware that you left the Catholic Church until your recent post. You seem rather young, so I’m wondering WHO or WHAT was the catalyst that caused you to leave?

Thank you but Im not young. Old enough to know my mind and where I stand with God… or where I pray I stand.

Why I left is simple I stopped believing in its teachings. Not in God, just the church.

I just felt the Catholic church was lacking in something, to bring me closer to God.

Now I want to go back to church… I’m trying to give the Catholic church another chance. There is still so much I need to learn. Besides I’d hate to think for years I put my faith in something that was wrong… but Catholic’s don’t seem any different then when I left the first time. Its still lacking something.

But you’ll be hapy to know I am in a Catholic class, we’restuding the bible… learning a lot, but Im also in a Lutheran class so we’ll see.

And no you do not know where The Holy Spirit is guiding me you’re just going by your own understanding based on your faith that the Catholic church is the one True Church. Right now I believe The Holy Spirit is keeing my options open… not picking one church over the other but allowing me to learn from both… and if you knew my work schedule being able to do that is a blessing from God.

 

[Gab123]

Now you are saying the Church before you were specific it was a Cathoic church.

The Church is One. “Catholic” means universal, being that it was founded by Christ for all peoples. One Church with one teaching.

 

[Gab123]

There is still so much I need to learn. Besides I’d hate to think for years I put my faith in something that was wrong

I would recommend a couple of resources. one is a list of topics you might have questions about and are explained by Archbishop Fulton Sheen in this complete Audio Catechism.

The other resource I recommend is listening to the David Anders show, which is a Q&A call in show dedicated to answer questions by non-Catholics. David is a former Protestant minister. You can look up all his shows or listen live. They come out every week. Here is his most recent show:

 

[Sirach2]

Why I left is simple I stopped believing in its teachings. Not in God, just the church.

But you’ll be happy to know I am in a Catholic class, we’re studying the bible… learning a lot, but I’m also in a Lutheran class so we’ll see.

In effect, by attending both classes, you will be pitting the teachings of each denomination, one against the other. This is very unwise if you are seeking to return the the Catholic Church.

Since you are not identifying those teachings that caused you to leave, I believe we are at a standstill in further communication.

You have been given some good resourses by Gab123, and I highly recommend viewing anything by Dr. David Anders. Coincidentally, on his program Saturday Oct. 6, there is a very good segment here on justification and an overview of Lutheran errors. It is only about 10 minutes long, and he has excellent references for further follow up.

I pray that you will continue to listen to the Holy Spirit and be guided back into the right path as a Catholic. May God bless you abundantly.

 

[annad347]

There are a few comments I want to address… but alas still not winning lotto tickets so off to work I go. But Thank God I’m off tomorrow so I can catch up… its hard to do it on a cell phone.

but I did want to reply to this post…

In effect, by attending both classes, you will be pitting the teachings of each denomination, one against the other. This is very unwise if you are seeking to return the the Catholic Church.

Why would I try to pit one teaching over the other, what would be the point. Its not a competitions as to which church wins my soul. I’m learning a lot about God, the Holy Trinity and the Bible from both classes… and God willing will continue to do so till He calls me home.

To me its like going to two different cooking classes to learn how cook eggs. You learn different ways of doing it but you still end up with cooked eggs. Someone might think one is the only way, one is better then the other… but all I want to do is learn how to cook eggs… and appreciate what I’m learning from both cooking classes. Maybe bad analogy but still its opening up my heart and mind to God, which is all I want.

So the problem isn’t trying to figure out which church I want to go too, or that I like going to two different churches to seek God. The problems come when I stop going to church, when I stop seeking Him.

Since you are not identifying those teachings that caused you to leave, I believe we are at a standstill in further communication.

It wasn’t exactly one specific teaching. It was more of a combination of people, teachings, traditions… but I got specific I’d be judged for the reason I left &/or spend time defending why I felt I needed to leave… which isn’t why I’m here.

… but comment like this There are no non-Catholics in heaven. is one of the reasons I left… cause I didn’t think Mary Mother of Jesus was ever baptized Catholic, I believe she is in heaven… she was probably Jewish when she died or Christian. I’m also sure Moses, Elijah, The Apostles… weather they’re in heaven or not, weren’t baptized Catholic… I believe they were also Jewish or Christians… when they died.

anyway… I do need to reread a lot of the posts, so God willing I’ll be able to catch up tomorrow.

 

[vsedriver]

Yes but if the food is real good I’ll aways want more.

that’s good because the Catholic Church has so much more to offer.

I dont know what this means.

https://www.catholicbible101.com/jesusthebridegroom.htm

I believe there was a church created by Peter by Jesus’s words

And that is true and you can find that church today. The actual church, not a split off. Only one church exists today still under the keys of St. Peter. There were no divisions among Christians when the Church canonized scripture. There was only one church.

For it is with this Roman church, by reason of its more powerful pre-eminence that every other church, that is to say all the faithful everywhere, ought to agree, inasmuch as in this church the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those who come from everywhere." St. Irenaeus, “Against All Heresies,” c. 180 A.D.

So, do you think all the denominations that split off of the Catholic Church did so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the Church founded by Christ?

I also believe even with the seperation of churches we are still one church because we all worship the one True God.

Do we? Do the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons worship the same God as you do? Do they all believe who Jesus is as you do? Is he just a man but the son of God or is he both man and God?

It has been said a few times that if I was Catholic I was missing something in my salvation

this shows that you don’t have a clear understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation. For most protestants it is an event. For the Catholics it is a process. Even here you see the severe separation that having different churches causes. This is why you are confused by Catholics who say you can be saved but not be a card carrying practicing Catholic and Catholics who say you must be a member of the Catholic Church.

How can you know you have all you need to know about salvation if you can’t trust the source of that information?

 

[Inquiry]

This thread would be much easier to read if it were easier to distinguish when someone meant catholic as in “all encompassing” or Catholic as in the denomination. I know for some there is no distinction, but many people mean it in one sense or the other.

 

[Sirach2]

It wasn’t exactly one specific teaching. It was more of a combination of people, teachings, traditions… but I got specific I’d be judged for the reason I left &/or spend time defending why I felt I needed to leave… which isn’t why I’m here.

No need to explain or to defend. I still believe we cannot go any further while you prefer to keep your questions about the faith to yourself. Therefore, I suggest you contact a priest, or begin classes in RCIA and air your difficulties with Catholicism there.

To use your egg analogy, if you don’t explain why your eggs never turn out right and that’s why you’re in classes, then nothing will help you discern why you are failing to cook them correctly until you open up to describe your mishaps so the teacher can assist you.

… but comment like this There are no non-Catholics in heaven. is one of the reasons I left… cause I didn’t think Mary Mother of Jesus was ever baptized Catholic, I believe she is in heaven… she was probably Jewish when she died or Christian. I’m also sure Moses, Elijah, The Apostles… weather they’re in heaven or not, weren’t baptized Catholic… I believe they were also Jewish or Christians… when they died.

You totally misunderstood the poster who said that. No point in my trying to explain his words.

As for Mary and the apostles, yes many were born Jewish. However, do you really believe that when Jesus told the apostles to “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” that they themselves were NOT baptized? How odd that you would believe this, and that Mary, Jesus’ own mother, would not have the first privilege of receiving holy baptism after His resurrection.

Again, I am getting vibes that this isn’t going anywhere positive, so I will wish you a good day and entrust any further development to the Holy Spirit.

EDIT: To add that Mary did not need baptism, since she was conceived free of original sin, which is the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. But, like Jesus, who did not need baptism either, she was possibly given this sacrament along with the apostles.

 

[steve-b]

I’m hoping that someone here can point me in the direction for where to get a comprehensive outline of what the Church teaches about Christians outside of Catholicism. I’ve been in some discussions with Protestants and they brought up that before Vatican II (I think it was) the Church maintained that only people who were in fellowship with Rome were saved, and that Vatican II’s declaration that those outside of Rome could inherit eternal life was done more to please the Protestants than anything and that it actually hurt their position of being a valid authority than anything because it was like they were backpedaling.

The following has already been quoted on this thread.​

From Vat II, Lumen Gentium

14. …Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved…

If it hasn’t already been said,​

there is no conflict pre vs post Vat II teaching on salvation outside the Church.

in addition​

Re: One’s Ignorance, if innocent, (that is a big If),
then it’s possible to escape fault…providing ignorance is really innocent.

Ignorance Further Explained​

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

Unique_name:

…I’ve learned from returning to the Church after 7 years, …

Glad you’re back.

Unique_name:

As a former Protestant, I have met and know people who are just obviously walking with the Lord. That being said, pre-Vatican II, would the Church really have taught that they weren’t saved?

the condition mentioned in Lumen Gentium?

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ , would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved …

That is from scripture and tradition.

Unique_name:

If the answer is that the Church did teach that they would not inherit eternal life, and changed at V II, then does that mean that the Church was wrong for 1950 years?

Lumen Gentium from Vat II shows The Church didn’t change.

 

[Sirach2]

The underlined words “whosoever” and “knowing” are vitally important. If “whosoever” does NOT “know” they are invincibly ignorant, and CAN BE saved. You omit much of this information, which is also in Lumen Gentium. Also, the words “refuse to enter” indicate “knowing.” So the exception is for those who do NOT know. I hope the OP is not put off by this.

Whosoever , therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ , would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved …

 

[steve-b]

The underlined words “whosoever” and “knowing” are vitally important.

That’s why I highlighted them

Sirach2:

If “whosoever” does NOT “know” they are ,invincibly ignorant, and CAN BE saved. You omit much of this information, which is also in Lumen Gentium. I hope the OP is not put off by this.

1. You added the word invincible. Invincible means no matter how hard one tries to know, they can’t know. That is NOT the ignorance I referenced, that follows (emphasis mine)

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1. Can be saved ≠ will be saved

 

[Sirach2]

SteveB, I am really weary of arguments on this, so I will not expend any more energy to debate. I simply call your attention to CA’s apologist, Tim Staples, who wrote a treatise explaining the matter, rather clearly, I believe. Among his many comments, is this:

So, if folks outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church are truly seeking the truth and have not rejected the fullness of the truth found only in the Catholic Church, they can be saved.

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[steve-b]

SteveB, I am really weary of arguments on this, so I will not expend any more energy to debate. I simply call your attention to CA’s apologist, Tim Staples, who wrote a treatise explaining the matter, rather clearly, I believe. Among his many comments, is this:

So, if folks outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church are truly seeking the truth and have not rejected the fullness of the truth found only in the Catholic Church, they can be saved.

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers

Staples also wrote in that article which I completely agree with

(emphasis mine)

But his Holiness then goes on to say that others outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church can be “related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire” (para. 103). He makes clear that these can be saved, but “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church,” and are, unfortunately, in a “state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.”

As you can see, that is why my final point to you was

Can be saved ≠ will be saved​

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Lutherans can’t confect the host or validly hear confessions though and I believe Lutherans teach consubstatiation rather than transubstantiation. Big difference.

What is corporal confession? Is that a group absolution?

 

[Sirach2]

Can be saved ≠ will be saved

Of course. But we need to review this comment Tim made, and which is what I objected to in your post above.

3. In the case of one who is ignorant of the truth of the Catholic Faith, “through no fault of [his] own,” he can be saved, if he is truly “invincibly ignorant, [is] given the supernatural virtue of faith and [has] perfect charity in [his heart]” (cf. Instruction of Holy Office of Dec. 20, 1949 ).

4. We must remember that we are not the judges of salvation. God is the sole and final judge. We do not know who is truly “invincibly ignorant” and who is not. Therefore, we must be careful to “evangelize all men” as the Catechism commands us and leave the judging to God.

I’m out as of now, for I think we covered what is necessary.

 

[Unique_name]

Thanks, all, for your replies! Some very good information here.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Can be saved ≠ will be saved

3. In the case of one who is ignorant of the truth of the Catholic Faith, “through no fault of [his] own,” he can be saved, if he is truly “invincibly ignorant, [is] given the supernatural virtue of faith and [has] perfect charity in [his heart]” (cf. Instruction of Holy Office of Dec. 20, 1949 ).

The highlighted, are the operative points.
If we consider Jesus point, Few Are Saved as He is looking forward in time, then I’d say, based on that, most people are considered not ignorant, but guilty by their own doing.

Sirach2:

4. We must remember that we are not the judges of salvation. God is the sole and final judge. We do not know who is truly “invincibly ignorant” and who is not. Therefore, we must be careful to “evangelize all men” as the Catechism commands us and leave the judging to God.

That’s why I quoted the judge…Jesus

And I agree, that WE can’t automatically offer, dismiss, write off, or give as an excuse, invincible ignorance.

AND​

given what Jesus said, that only a few are saved, I’d say based on that, ignorance, invincible or not, looks like it doesn’t play the kind of role most people give it.