Salvation questions from some Protestant brothers

[annad347]

Jesus founded the Catholic Church, so the Holy Spirit is not going to guide you away from the Catholic Church

You do not know that… that is what your faith in your teachings is telling you. My faith in God which is above the Catholic church is telling me somthing different.

If not being Catholic, according to you means Im not saved then God have mercy on my soul.

@Gab123, Since you say, Im not Catholic, Im not saved…there isnt any thing more to talk about.

Jesus Christ son of God
Have mercy on me a sinner.

And by the way there are some Catholics on this thread who believe you can be saved if you are not Catholic… and they back up what they believe with scripture.

 

[Gab123]

My faith in God which is above the Catholic church is telling me somthing different.

Yet here you are on a Catholic website forum.

Since you say, Im not Catholic, Im not saved…there isnt any thing more to talk about.

I never said that. The Church teaches that it is possible. Simply read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Possible, if one is invincibly ignorant of the truth. Possible yes; likely is a different question. Jesus Himself said Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21

There are many many fake gospels masquerading as Christianity today claiming to be the way to salvation. All those health, wealth and success gospels are fake Christianity. The only way to salvation is through the cross…

Jesus said that unless we pick up or cross daily and follow Him we cannot be his disciples. That if we do not forgive from the heart we will likewise not be forgiven. That if we do not eat His flesh and drink His blood, that we will not have life in us. Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, with all our mind, with all our strength and all our soul; and to love neighbor as we love ourself. That we must repent, turn away from sin and confess our sins. And It’s one thing to repent out of fear of hell; it’s quite another thing to repent out of having offended God.

The problem is that we can fool ourselves into thinking that we are in good standing with God when in fact we are full of pride, impurity, selfishness, unforgiveness, resentments, and all kinds of things that separate us from God and neighbor.

Thus it is good to make a good examination of conscience. Below is a link to a helpful Examination of Conscience that helps a soul unmask the hidden sins that might lurk in the heart. Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive or retain sins. Thus in order to have sins forgiven they must be confessed and absolved through the power bestowed to the priests in the a sacrament of a Confession. Here you can examine your conscience to see if there is anything you need to confess, to make sure you’re not on the wide road that leads to damnation…

 

[GiftofMercy]

The person who translated the bible from Hebrew to a language everyone could understand was Catholic?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) vsedriver:

Can I pick up on this point.
The Hebrew Old Testament Bible has been translated first into the LXX and then into versions of every vernacular in existence today.
There are translations that are literal, and translations that are not. A comparison of translations will reveal great diversity in phrases and words.

Translation into the literal can really miss some of the meanings of the words.
Many persons translated and continue to make translations. We were just discussing one phrase today that with all the translations out there, only 1 has come close to the meaning. For example.

I make no comment about the New Testament as I have not studied it or Greek yet

 

[GiftofMercy]

Didn’t know John the Baptist and Jesus Christ were both Catholic.

Jewish, devout Jews.

 

[Sirach2]

It was after that, that comments went in a very different direction. Giving the indications, if I wasn’t Catholic I was missing something in my salvation. That my faith in Jesus alone didn’t save me but my commitment to a specific church.

Maybe this will help, for it is the official teaching of the Church as found in the Catechism, and which was solemnly defined in Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 16. (The footnote to LG16 is cited beneath this article)

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I think this says it all in an official manner that you can rely on. But I was not aware that you left the Catholic Church until your recent post. You seem rather young, so I’m wondering WHO or WHAT was the catalyst that caused you to leave? It suggests to me that somewhere along the way you had been deceived, disgruntled, not properly catechized about the faith, or some personal reason that you have not revealed to us. Moreover, you seem to want to justify your decision to leave so your conscience won’t bother you. Why not use this forum to seek true understanding of whatever it was that caused you to leave?

I have two dear friends who were attending a Protestant bible study, and the teachings they received against the Catholic Church eventually caused them to leave. Yes, it broke my heart, and I continue to pray that they will find the error in those teachings. I was glad to read that you are in a Catholic study group.

BTW, St. Jerome, Doctor of the Church, is the one who translated the Hebrew scriptures into Latin.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Nothing has changed in the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It can’t. If you find more clarity in older documents you can trust what they say to be true and that you understand it. If you find many apparent differences of opinion just use older documents for clarity. That’s the nice thing about nothing having changed.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

After being in this thread a person cannot have “recourse” to invincible ignorance. If they don’t convert some time before they die they will not go to heaven.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

You do not know that

Actually, we do. The holy spirit doesn’t lead people away from truth. That is the work of satan and concupiscence. Anyone who is lead away from the catholic church is being led by satan and/or his own desires.

And by the way there are some Catholics on this thread who believe you can be saved if you are not Catholic… and they back up what they believe with scripture.

You don’t have invincible ignorance. Just as the 72 were sent out to proclaim the gospel and told to wipe the dust from their shoes of the town’s of those who would not believe. They heard and did not believe, ignorance did not apply to them any more than it does you. I pray you keep learning the truth about the church. No one can be saved outside the church. Even those who are invincibility ignorant, which you aren’t, are saved through the catholic church.

 

[Gab123]

Nothing has changed in the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

What has changed is the understanding of what that actually means. One becomes a member of the Church through baptism.

 

[Sirach2]

I do pray that you understand EENS as the Holy Office taught in 1949 in response to Leonard Feeney’s false teaching on this?

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Baptism (water, is necessary for salvation, it isn’t salvation and they aren’t in the barque of peter.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

I’m aware of the Feenyites. I’m not arguing their position.

 

[Sirach2]

You don’t have invincible ignorance. Just as the 72 were sent out to proclaim the gospel and told to wipe the dust from their shoes of the town’s of those who would not believe. They heard and did not believe, ignorance did not apply to them any more than it does you

Let’s not alarm this young lady by such a statement, please. You might want to read Jimmy Akin’s discourse here, wherein he wrote:

One is innocently ignorant if he has not seen sufficient evidence for the truth of the Catholic faith (given his mental faculties and any opposing evidence he has been given by anti-Catholics). But if one has seen sufficient evidence, or if he has seen enough evidence that he should investigate further but has failed to do so, his ignorance is not innocent.

Even for those who are innocently ignorant, salvation is not achieved without some union with the Church. As Catholic teaching makes clear, one can be united with the Church in a way that does not involve full incorporation into it. Only Catholics are fully incorporated, though non-Catholics who are in a state of grace are linked with it (to use Vatican II’s terminology), even if they are unaware of this.

 

[Gab123]

Baptism isn’t salvation and they aren’t in the barque of peter.

Baptism connects a person to the Church. It doesn’t disconnect you from the Church…

 

[vsedriver]

The person who translated the bible from Hebrew to a language everyone could understand was Catholic?

what do you mean by a language that everyone could understand? One that everyone could read? because most people were illiterate. Most 1st century people understood Greek along with Latin. Even Jews would have some proficiency with these languages due to the Greek invasion and the Roman rule. Gentile converts wouldn’t need to know Hebrew. The faith was spread by authorized, trained ministers of the church. Even Paul went to Peter to get his OK on what he was teaching. People didn’t pick up the scriptures and read them and decide what Christianity was all about. Jesus founded a church, which had a visible body and authority. It was the church that decided what was New Testament sacred scripture and they based it on what was being used by the church itself. All translations had to be approved by the church. People just didn’t translate and publish a book.

so even though I’m full… loved what I ate. Its wasn’t good enough because I didn’t eat from the Catholic table. That I missed out on something, my eating was lacking, because it wasn’t Catholic.

I didn’t say it wasn’t 'good enough '. I said you wouldn’t be hungry. You ‘feel’ full. But are you really? How do you know? It’s not a ‘Catholic’ table it is the table of the feast of the bridegroom.

I just believe the Catholic is one part of the church that Jesus wants us to be part of

do you believe it or do you know it? History says it is the church founded by Jesus Christ. Go back in time and you will see that the Catholic Church was the only church in existence at the time of the apostles.

Faith and lot of prayers tell us which church is given to us by God…

if that is true, then why are there so many different ‘churches’? is God tricking some people? How does this line up with Jesus’s desire that we all be one?

So why is it if I’m Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, accept Him as my Lord and Savior, Repent my sins, give when I can, help those who I can, love my neighbors (still working on that) and live by the guidance of The Holy Spirit that God placed in me when I accepted Him… if I’m not Catholic I’m not saved?

again, no one has said if you are not a practicing Catholic you aren’t saved. That’s quite clear in the catechism of the Catholic Church.

But if you are saved it is because of the Catholic Church because without the Catholic Church you wouldn’t have sacred scripture or be able to know about Jesus. We are saved by Christ through his church which is the Catholic Church. Even if you aren’t a practicing, card carrying Catholic.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

He forgot to mention perfect contrition.

Also, they have to believe everything the church teaches or at least being willing to assent to all her teachings if they were to find out. Things like, papal infallibility, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, etc. Many protestants do know these things about the Catholic Church and actively deny them. If they die not believing them, they aren’t going to heaven. They need to know that.

It’s not just to only give them a little bit of the story here and have them hoping that they’ll have perfect contrition, which is a signal grace and extremely rare, then go on about their lives as protestants, blithely ignoring the Catholic Church until they pass into eternity while we Catholics simply pray and fast for them.

They don’t have the sacraments to help them. They can’t get in with simply fearing hell or the loss of heaven if the mortally sin and what are they odds that they never do so. They can’t get in by faith alone. There are no non-Catholics in heaven. One either converts before he dies or he dies the second death. I’d rather they be alarmed than ignorant.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Okay, so you’re baptized (hopefully with proper form, matter and intent) and then you mortally sin. Now what?

 

[Sirach2]

. . .if they were to find out.

IF they were to find out and believe with the gift of faith. Until then, if they do not have faith YET to believe, they are still invincibly ignorant. Only God knows their hearts, and what efforts they made to discover Truth and hopefully come to faith in these truths, whether or not they fully understand them (such as the Trinity). None of us are able to understand that, but we believe in a Triune God, as He has revealed Himself.

 

[Gab123]

Okay, so you’re baptized (hopefully with proper form, matter and intent) and then you mortally sin. Now what?

Read the catechism. If one is sincerely sorry and has perfect contrition for sin, God forgives. God wants all to be saved, thus He gives people the grace of repentance; the problem is when people refuse the grace and refuse to repent; then there is no salvation. Catholics have a special responsibility because they have been given all the treasures of faith and the sacraments, and spiritual weapons for service in the world. Thus at Fatima the constant call to pray and sacrifice for the conversion of sinners.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

if they do not have faith YET to believe, they are still invincibly ignorant

Not having faith to believe isn’t the definition of invincible ignorance. Otherwise all non-believers would be invincibly ignorant.