Salvation questions from some Protestant brothers

[annad347]

wow, @steve-b, you really didn’t understand what I meant by my question?

Though you are correct, the word simple was a bad choice of words, cause faith in Jesus Christ is not simple… but isn’t it necessary for everthing you believe… your faith that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. The belief that, God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.? John 3:16 ← I did it.

I was just asking what happened to that?

Besides don’t you have to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to have “obedience of faith” so not to fall, to willingly do everything 2 Peter 1:5-10 writes?

and @Vico since you never know when the you will reach the end of your life, doesn’t that mean faith must always be present? unless I don’t understand your statement.

but maybe these are questions for another thread?

 

[Vico]

…
and @Vico since you never know when the you will reach the end of your life, doesn’t that mean faith must always be present? unless I don’t understand your statement.
…

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of the Holy Spirit given with baptism but each may be lost through sin. Without repentance for forgiveness it will not be regained.

 

[annad347]

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of the Holy Spirit given with baptism but each may be lost through sin. Without repentance for forgiveness it will not be regained.

Thank God with the Holy Spirit with in, you’ll want forgiveness for your sins.

I strongly believe that as much as I strongly believe in my faith, mercy and love in God.

God help me if I ever stop believing that.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of the Holy Spirit given with baptism but each may be lost through sin. Without repentance for forgiveness it will not be regained.

Thank God with the Holy Spirit with in, you’ll want forgiveness for your sins.

I strongly believe that as much as I strongly believe in my faith, mercy and love in God.

God help me if I ever stop believing that.

A mortal sin can occur after baptism and there is no certainty of salvation for everyone. We know that a person can be condemned in the particular judgment at death.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[annad347]

However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Faith in God’s mercy and grace will be my salvation.

 

[steve-b]

annad347:

…
and @Vico since you never know when the you will reach the end of your life, doesn’t that mean faith must always be present? unless I don’t understand your statement.
…

Faith, hope, and charity are gifts of the Holy Spirit given with baptism but each may be lost through sin. Without repentance for forgiveness it will not be regained.

I thought you were going to make the following point, HERE

 

[steve-b]

wow, @steve-b, you really didn’t understand what I meant by my question?

Though you are correct, the word simple was a bad choice of words, cause faith in Jesus Christ is not simple… but isn’t it necessary for everthing you believe… your faith that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. The belief that, God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.? John 3:16 ← I did it.

I was just asking what happened to that?

All I was saying is, “believe” and “faith”, are huge words, with a whole lot behind them.
anna347:

Besides don’t you have to have faith in Jesus Christ in order to have “obedience of faith” so not to fall, to willingly do everything 2 Peter 1:5-10 writes?

All I was showing, with the links I gave, is show Obedience of faith is NOT easy. It takes discipline, and a lot of work on our part.

AND

As Peter taught, 2 Peter 1:5-10 we need to add to our faith, without stopping, the following additions

1. Virtue
2. Knowledge
3. self control
4. steadfastness
5. godliness
6. brotherly affection
7. love

All I’m saying by quoting these links, is showing, we can’t just presume we have a saving faith, by saying we have faith, we must show it is alive in us, by our actions…as Peter taught here

 

[Mishakel]

I don’t think you finished the scripture either. Jesus knew the disciples who left didn’t believe from the beginning. All of what he had just talked about didn’t sway them one way or the other. They simply never believed Jesus was the Messiah.

I understand this is a larger issue of theology with Catholicism believing one way, and probably most of Protestantism believing another. While it is true I belong to a Protestant belief, my faith makes me part of the body of Christ spoke of in scripture, which is the only church all of us should strive for. I’m not sure if Catholicism would consider me part of that body but it should be the my duty to please God first and foremost. At judgement I will not answer to a Catholic or Protestant tribunal but to God only.

Here are my reasons, besides viewing John 6 differently than you, why I do not think Jesus was being literal about his blood and flesh.

When Saul was converted to what we now call Christianity, what brought about this change? What did Saul physically or spiritually do to change? He was the strictest of Jew about observing all the Jewish laws so what turned Saul into Paul? Was it the eucharist? Was it marriage? Was it Baptism? Was it confirmation? Did he have a laundry list of Penance to do for all the killing of Christians he had ordained? Was it healing the sick?

It was none of those. Saul believed and transformed because of this faith into Paul. What did Paul do immediately once he gained his sight and belief? Acts 9:20 “And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”

Paul believed and because of his faith he acted how God wanted him to, and in a way that pleased God. This is the simplicity of Christianity and why Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light

We are saved by faith and faith alone. We then strive to please God with our works or actions the rest of our lives so that the world sees God’s love through us.

You are free to believe how you wish. I am merely explaining the (why) behind my belief.

 

[steve-b]

I don’t think you finished the scripture either. Jesus knew the disciples who left didn’t believe from the beginning. All of what he had just talked about didn’t sway them one way or the other. They simply never believed Jesus was the Messiah.

AND they didn’t believe what Jesus was teaching them, even though they witnessed His many miracles. AND it didn’t stop Jesus from giving them the instruction, so no one can say Jesus leaves anybody out of the process even though He knows in advance, most won’t accept His teaching.

Mishakel:

I understand this is a larger issue of theology with Catholicism believing one way, and probably most of Protestantism believing another. While it is true I belong to a Protestant belief, my faith makes me part of the body of Christ spoke of in scripture, which is the only church all of us should strive for.

And technically, Judas, AND all the heretics and schismatics in history that have been baptized, are “part” of the body of Christ also, even if they won’t unite “in” the body, and believe what they are to believe…

Mishakel:

At judgement I will not answer to a Catholic or Protestant tribunal but to God only.

True.

Mishakel:

Here are my reasons, besides viewing John 6 differently than you, why I do not think Jesus was being literal about his blood and flesh.

When Saul was converted to what we now call Christianity, what brought about this change? What did Saul physically or spiritually do to change? He was the strictest of Jew about observing all the Jewish laws so what turned Saul into Paul? Was it the eucharist? Was it marriage? Was it Baptism? Was it confirmation? Did he have a laundry list of Penance to do for all the killing of Christians he had ordained? Was it healing the sick?

It was none of those. Saul believed and transformed because of this faith into Paul. What did Paul do immediately once he gained his sight and belief? Acts 9:20 “And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”

For space considerations

Re: Paul and the Eucharist see

HERE

AND

HERE

 

[TULIPed]

it didn’t stop Jesus from giving them the instruction, so no one can say Jesus leaves anybody out of the process even though He knows in advance, most won’t accept His teaching.

Preach it @steve-b! Now you’re talking! @johan where r u? Steve’s seen the light!

#potterandtheclay

 

[Vico]

Vico:

However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Faith in God’s mercy and grace will be my salvation.

Yes, we do not make personal assessment of a particular persons salvation. Yet as stated at the Council of Trent:

CANON XIV. If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

 

[Mishakel]

Re: Paul and the Eucharist see

HERE

AND

HERE

Theologically, the points made in each article are done so from the view of Catholicism. I don’t think a webpage dedicated to agreement with Catholicism addresses my point.

My main point, which you didn’t address, is what saved Saul? What changed? How did Saul become Paul? We’re definitely not going to agree on what Catholicism defines in John 6, or 1 Corinthians. The articles impute their own words in coming to a conclusion on what the passages say. I’m willing to just set that aside because honestly I highly doubt either of our positions will change. I’m simply asking, again, what transformed Saul?

This is the key to everything. Do you agree that Saul was transformed into Paul by faith and faith alone?

Paul clearly defines this in Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The holy righteousness of God is by faith of Jesus. That’s it. We don’t need theologians to decipher this. There’s no need to impute anything. This is the only thing which can grant God’s ultimate grace.

Paul states in
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

All of us sin. This is a fact we both I’m sure will agree to. If we as humans had to be 100% pure in some way by following God’s laws, or sacraments to obtain God’s mercy, who among us would come before the throne boldly? None would or be able to. Do you agree? We have Christ as our high priest and believe on him to be the one sacrifice that allows us to come before God boldly, so long as we have faith.

Romans chapter 4 goes into great length to explain how by faith people were granted God’s righteousness and faith alone. Circumcision wasn’t what made Abraham righteous. Abraham was righteous while he was uncircumcised because he had faith in God.

I could go on with examples and would like to but it is getting late, and I wish you a good evening.

 

[annad347]

CANON XIV. If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

I have no idea what this means.

I looked up the word I didn’t understand… and I still have no idea what it means.

Can you explain?

 

[annad347]

All I was saying is, “believe” and “faith”, are huge words, with a whole lot behind them.

I apologized for using the word simple.

I do not disagree with you that “Believe” and “Faith” are huge words with a whole lot behind them. You do not have to prove it to me.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

CANON XIV. If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

I have no idea what this means.

I looked up the word I didn’t understand… and I still have no idea what it means.

Can you explain?

Anathema is denouncing a doctrine. The doctrines denounced in this canon are:

1. a person is truly absolved from his sins and justified merely through belief of it being so,
2. a person is not truly justified unless that is believed to be so,
3. a person is absolved and justified by faith alone *.

* In other words this denounces that observance of the moral law is not necessary either as a prerequisite for obtaining justification or as a means for preserving it.

 

[annad347]

• In other words this denounces that observance of the moral law is not necessary either as a prerequisite for obtaining justification or as a means for preserving it.

I’m sorry but I still don’t understand exactly what you’re trying to say… BUT I am going to take this to class tomorrow… maybe someone can explain it so I understand.

I’m don’t understand what this has to do with, Faith in God’s mercy and grace will be my salvation

 

[Vico]

…

I’m sorry but I still don’t understand exactly what you’re trying to say… BUT I am going to take this to class tomorrow… maybe someone can explain it so I understand.

I’m don’t understand what this has to do with, Faith in God’s mercy and grace will be my salvation

Faith is belief. Belief is not sufficient to have a final state of grace at death. One must cooperate with the grace to be in a state of grace at the time of death. This means is there is any mortal sin committed after baptism that is must be absolved before death.

 

[Unique_name]

This means is there is any mortal sin committed after baptism that is must be absolved before death.

And that an individual cannot absolve themselves of the sin. Christ gave authority to his apostles to forgive or not to forgive, not each individual person. If Christ established it, we can’t say, “Well I just take it to God by myself.” You can and should confess your sins to God but he gave his apostles the specific authority to forgive or not to forgive.

 

[Vico]

…

And that an individual cannot absolve themselves of the sin. Christ gave authority to his apostles to forgive or not to forgive, not each individual person. If Christ established it, we can’t say, “Well I just take it to God by myself.” You can and should confess your sins to God but he gave his apostles the specific authority to forgive or not to forgive.

Good point. Also, sometimes it is possible to obtain forgiveness through an act of perfect contrition.

Catechism

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. 51
51 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1677.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Re: Paul and the Eucharist see

HERE

AND

HERE

Theologically, the points made in each article are done so from the view of Catholicism. I don’t think a webpage dedicated to agreement with Catholicism addresses my point.

And Where do you think we got the bible? It’s the Catholic Church. Every writer of the NT was in the only
Church Jesus established. The Catholic Church

Mishakel:

My main point, which you didn’t address, is what saved Saul? What changed? How did Saul become Paul? We’re definitely not going to agree on what Catholicism defines in John 6, or 1 Corinthians. The articles impute their own words in coming to a conclusion on what the passages say. I’m willing to just set that aside because honestly I highly doubt either of our positions will change. I’m simply asking, again, what transformed Saul?

You specifically took aim at the Eucharist when you said HERE

Excerpt:
"Here are my reasons, besides viewing John 6 differently than you, why I do not think Jesus was being literal about his blood and flesh. When Saul was converted to what we now call Christianity, what brought about this change? What did Saul physically or spiritually do to change? He was the strictest of Jew about observing all the Jewish laws so what turned Saul into Paul? Was it the eucharist? Was it marriage? Was it Baptism? Was it confirmation? Did he have a laundry list of Penance to do for all the killing of Christians he had ordained? Was it healing the sick? It was none of those. Saul believed and transformed because of this faith into Paul. What did Paul do immediately once he gained his sight and belief? Acts 9:20 “And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”

As I pointed out in those 2 links above, and I could continue with examples, you don’t know Paul.