Salvation requirements

[cor]

Romans 4:3 Äbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:2 If in fact Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God.

I think I’m looking for what Abraham received from God, justification. And it seems that according to God’s word all I need to do is believe God. I know that’s not the end of my walk with God, because the Bible teaches that faith without works is dead. Sequentally, faith comes first, along with justification, and then come the works. It seems as though many of the posts here put works before justification. In other words, we need to earn our justification. Abraham was justified by believing in God.

God Bless,
Robert

Believing in the existence of God, of Love Itself, is necessary for salvation since one cannot love Love without believing it is out there to love in the first place. However belief in Jesus as the Christ is not necessary for salvation. This is clear from the bible in this passage:

“9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” (1 Timothy 4)

So the “living God” is not only the savior of “those who believe” but also those who do not believe since he is “especially” the savior of those who believe. What do you think of this?

 

[Robert902]

Believing in the existence of God, of Love Itself, is necessary for salvation since one cannot love Love without believing it is out there to love in the first place. However belief in Jesus as the Christ is not necessary for salvation. This is clear from the bible in this passage:

“9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.” (1 Timothy 4)

So the “living God” is not only the savior of “those who believe” but also those who do not believe since he is “especially” the savior of those who believe. What do you think of this?

John 3:36 seems to contradict this. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
The Son of God is the Christ Jesus. It’s part and parcel. Believeth means that we believe that He died for our sins. If you don’t believe that salvation requires that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, then you are under the law, and still waiting for your saviour.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 4:3 Äbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:2 If in fact Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God.

I think I’m looking for what Abraham received from God, justification. And it seems that according to God’s word all I need to do is believe God. I know that’s not the end of my walk with God, because the Bible teaches that faith without works is dead. Sequentally, faith comes first, along with justification, and then come the works. It seems as though many of the posts here put works before justification. In other words, we need to earn our justification. Abraham was justified by believing in God.

God Bless,
Robert

Reception of the gift of justification must precede the works that we do. That is clear Catholic teaching. Once we have received the gift of justification, we have the responsibility to live in righteousness. Failure to do so results in ultimate loss of that gift.

Here are other verses on salvation requirements:

John 5:29-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Matthew 19:16-17

**16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” **

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jemfinch]

John 3:36 seems to contradict this. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

There’s a mistranslation there. The passage actually says, “He that believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he that disobeys the Son shall not see life.” The Greek words are very different (pisteuo versus apeitho), the former meaning “believe” or “trust” and the latter meaning “obey.”

This is just another indication that Sola Fide is wrong: when the Bible talks about belief, it’s talking about an active, living belief, the opposite of which is disobedience, not disbelief.

Jeremy

 

[cor]

John 3:36 seems to contradict this. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
The Son of God is the Christ Jesus. It’s part and parcel. Believeth means that we believe that He died for our sins. If you don’t believe that salvation requires that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, then you are under the law, and still waiting for your saviour.

God Bless,
Robert

Someone addressed a translation issue. But, how do you interpret the scripture I quoted? In what way is God the “savior of all men” including of those who do not believe? (albeit being “especially” the savior of those who do believe)

 

[MariaG]

Romans 4:3 Äbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:2 If in fact Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God.

I think I’m looking for what Abraham received from God, justification. And it seems that according to God’s word all I need to do is believe God. I know that’s not the end of my walk with God, because the Bible teaches that faith without works is dead. Sequentally, faith comes first, along with justification, and then come the works. It seems as though many of the posts here put works before justification. In other words, we need to earn our justification. Abraham was justified by believing in God.

God Bless,
Robert

I think you actually need to read some of the links and definitions. Again, you are not understanding the responses because you do not understand the Catholic definitions. We are using the same words, but the definitions are not the same.

Try this article by Peter Kreeft , unless you wish to believe something about the Catholic church that we just don’t teach.

 

[kaycee]

There’s a mistranslation there. The passage actually says, “He that believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he that disobeys the Son shall not see life.” The Greek words are very different (pisteuo versus apeitho), the former meaning “believe” or “trust” and the latter meaning “obey.”

This is just another indication that Sola Fide is wrong: when the Bible talks about belief, it’s talking about an active, living belief, the opposite of which is disobedience, not disbelief.

Jeremy

That is a tortured interpretation clealy wrenched out of context.

The context is clearly the opposite of belief and is speaking of 2 different groups of people. It dove tails very nicely with these verses.

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Heb 3:18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

2 Thes1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do R18 not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 6:28-59
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

 

[Robert902]

Someone addressed a translation issue. But, how do you interpret the scripture I quoted? In what way is God the “savior of all men” including of those who do not believe? (albeit being “especially” the savior of those who do believe)

Read Romans 8:29-33. Also Eph 1:4-5. John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you have given Me, for they are yours.”

God Bless,
Robert

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you have given Me, for they are yours.”

God Bless,
Robert

Then we would all be up the proverbial river because He was speaking here of the Apostles.

As Maria recommended - read the links and definitions.

Peace

John

 

[Robert902]

Then we would all be up the proverbial river because He was speaking here of the Apostles.

As Maria recommended - read the links and definitions.

Peace

John

Not true. Actually He was speaking here of His disciples, but my point was that Jesus Christ doesn’t pray for the world; His ministry of intercession is for His own who are in the world.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

The Catholic Church expressly denies that we can merit the grace of justification as you appear to be talking about it. It is an undeserved gift. Justification has been merited for us by Christ.

After someone is justified, then there are “good works”. You seem to be talking about when a person first gets saved though, and specifically not down the road after that.

Some CCC snips.

To get a fuller picture. Read the entire sections surrounding those snips from the CCC.

 

[Robert902]

But according to Vatican II and the “infallable dogma” outside the Church there is no salvation. In fact Vatican II’s documant Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, as does it’s document Dignitatis Humanea.
So according to this, if a person doesn’t join [works] the Catholic Church they will not receive salvation. So justification could only be possible after membership [works] in the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[cor]

But according to Vatican II and the “infallable dogma” outside the Church there is no salvation. In fact Vatican II’s documant Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, as does it’s document Dignitatis Humanea.
So according to this, if a person doesn’t join [works] the Catholic Church they will not receive salvation. So justification could only be possible after membership [works] in the Catholic Church. This doesn’t seem to line up with scripture.

The Council of Trent teaches that baptism (by which one enters the Church) is the “instrumental cause” of justification:

“Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.”

history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06d1.htm

IIRC, these terms “instrumental cause” final cause and so forth are drawn from Aristotelian philosophy. The final cause is the purpose or end of a thing. The efficient cause is the thing which makes it so. The formal cause is the thing after which it is so. The instrumental cause is that which is wielded by the efficient cause. So for example, when you shoot pool, you are the efficient cause of the ball rolling across the table but the stick is the instrumental cause.

So baptism is like the stick except it is wielded by the “merciful God” who as above quoted is the efficient cause.

 

[jmcrae]

Romans 4:3 Äbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:2 If in fact Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God.

Abraham’s response to God’s midnight self-revelation was not to say, “Oh, wow, there is only one God, and He is our Creator,” and then roll over and go back to sleep - no. Abraham got out of bed, made sacrifices of sheep, goats, cattle, birds, bread, wine, and what else am I forgetting, and stayed up all night conversing with God in the midst of the flames of the sacrifice. At the end of that sacrifice, God made a covenant with Abraham.

Yes, he believed God first - but then he acted with a Sacramental response to his new understanding of God. Without that response, which was purely liturgical, there would have been no Old Testament - no Abrahamic Covenant.

So do we. We come to the point of initial conversion, and then we respond by coming to the Sacraments of Initiation.

I think I’m looking for what Abraham received from God, justification. And it seems that according to God’s word all I need to do is believe God.

When we believe God, we do more than just make mental assent. When God moves in us, we can’t help but act. We have to respond. What our Catholic religion does is it provides us with the means and the language with which to respond to God.

A small town was in desperate trouble - the rain hadn’t come, and the crops were going to fail. So, they all gathered in the church to pray for rain. “Do you believe,” said the preacher, “that God will send rain?” They all said, “Yes!!” However, the preacher noticed that only one person had actually brought an umbrella with her. (Her faith, as it turned out, was enough - God sent the rain, and she alone was able to go home - the rest of them were stuck in the church for the night, until the rain let up.)

In this particular example, faith (belief that God would answer the prayer) and work (bringing the umbrella) were the same thing.

That’s how it is with Catholics, too. We baptize because we believe that God washes away sins. Not because we’re afraid He might not, and think that we can do it ourselves.

 

[MariaG]

But according to Vatican II and the “infallable dogma” outside the Church there is no salvation. In fact Vatican II’s documant Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, as does it’s document Dignitatis Humanea.
So according to this, if a person doesn’t join [works] the Catholic Church they will not receive salvation. So justification could only be possible after membership [works] in the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Robert

No, this is not the meaning of No salvation outside the Church.

But I can see you are still unwilling to look at links and read definitions. You prefer to stay steeped in your ignorance and hold onto your false belief of what you think Catholic Christians believe.

I shake the dust from my feet.

 

[guanophore]

But according to Vatican II and the “infallable dogma” outside the Church there is no salvation. In fact Vatican II’s documant Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, as does it’s document Dignitatis Humanea.
So according to this, if a person doesn’t join [works] the Catholic Church they will not receive salvation. So justification could only be possible after membership [works] in the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Robert

You misunderstand, Robert. The Body of Christ is much larger than the visible Catholic Church. Also, membership in the Body of Christ occurs through baptism, which has been commanded by Jesus. If you think this is salvation by works, I guess you will have to take that up with Him!

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

 

[Robert902]

No, this is not the meaning of No salvation outside the Church.

But I can see you are still unwilling to look at links and read definitions. You prefer to stay steeped in your ignorance and hold onto your false belief of what you think Catholic Christians believe.

I shake the dust from my feet.

I do look at the links, but when they contradict the Bible, I discard them. Eph. 5:20-21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good”. You tell me that I am steeped in ignorance and hold onto my false beliefs of what I think Catholic Christians believe. Believe me, I am in a unique position to know what the Catholic Church teaches, unfortunately many Catholics here have no idea of what their church teaches and instead blindly argue based on their feelings or opinions rather than the facts

God Bless,
Robert.

 

[Robert902]

You misunderstand, Robert. The Body of Christ is much larger than the visible Catholic Church. Also, membership in the Body of Christ occurs through baptism, which has been commanded by Jesus. If you think this is salvation by works, I guess you will have to take that up with Him!

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Why doesn’t it say; but he who does not believe and is not Baptized will be condemned? It doesn’t say that, because only those who don’t [believe] are condemned. Read the entire verse. Sure Baptism is important, and every believer should ne Baptized, but it can’t save you. This is an example of where the sacrament becomes the means of grace instead of a symbol of grace; to those who erroneously believe Baptism saves you… Baptism is [only] a symbol.

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Nothing here about Baptism saving you.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[guanophore]

Why doesn’t it say; but he who does not believe and is not Baptized will be condemned? It doesn’t say that, because only those who don’t [believe] are condemned. Read the entire verse. Sure Baptism is important, and every believer should ne Baptized, but it can’t save you. This is an example of where the sacrament becomes the means of grace instead of a symbol of grace; to those who erroneously believe Baptism saves you… Baptism is [only] a symbol.

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Nothing here about Baptism saving you.

God Bless,
Robert

Jesus instituted baptism, and commanded it. He never did this with anything unless it was a means of grace.

In baptism we are buried with him, and rise with him to newness of life. This is more than symbol, this is a spiritual event that takes place by faith, through the power of Jesus.

1 Peter 3:21
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Rom 6:4
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. "

I don’t think this is some kind of “Catholic” thing. I learned it in a protestant seminary!

 

[Nita]

**Why doesn’t it say; but he who does not believe and is not Baptized will be condemned? ** It doesn’t say that, because only those who don’t [believe] are condemned. Read the entire verse. Sure Baptism is important, and every believer should ne Baptized, but it can’t save you. This is an example of where the sacrament becomes the means of grace instead of a symbol of grace; to those who erroneously believe Baptism saves you… Baptism is [only] a symbol.

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Nothing here about Baptism saving you.

God Bless,
Robert

Why doesn’t it say; ---------?
Do you realize how many more things you could add in addition the two items you gave? Scripture does not put in ONE SENTENCE all the facets of what constitutes salvation of our souls. We could have a one sentence NT if it did.

Jesus expects us to read the whole Scripture. Sit down and do that - start with the New Testamemt. Keep a paper and pen handy - one sheet headed “What we must do to get to heaven” and one headed “What we must not do to get to heaven”. Every time you come to a passage that corresponds to one of those categories, write it out. When you have completed the NT you will have an accurate answer to your questions; you will finally have complete answers. And believe me, there won’t be just a single item under each heading.

God bless you in your search,
Nita