Salvation requirements

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Why doesn’t it say; but he who does not believe and is not Baptized will be condemned? It doesn’t say that, because only those who don’t [believe] are condemned.
Not because you can be saved without baptism (ordinarily) but because those who are baptized can later lose their faith. If someone gets baptized, but later loses his faith, he, too, will go to Hell. We not only have to get baptized, we also have to persevere in our faith.
Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”
Nothing here about Baptism saving you.

Also nothing about it being optional. We find “Baptism now saves you” in I Peter 3:21. 😉
 
But according to Vatican II and the “infallable dogma” outside the Church there is no salvation. In fact Vatican II’s documant Lumen Gentium reaffirms this dogma, as does it’s document Dignitatis Humanea.
So according to this, if a person doesn’t join [works] the Catholic Church they will not receive salvation. So justification could only be possible after membership [works] in the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Robert
You’ve got two things going here in this post. First, a concern that a particular phrase means one thing or another. Here is how the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church talks about that phrase, so you can know how it is understood.
171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.
Your second concern about joining/works might well be answered by the quote I gave, too. I don’t think you’d say that being “in Christ” is a work, yet it surely is a requirement for salvation, because there is no salvation in any other. It is part of the idea of the Church is the body of Christ. Here is one of many scriptures that are relevant to this.

1 Cor 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
 
Jesus instituted baptism, and commanded it. He never did this with anything unless it was a means of grace.

In baptism we are buried with him, and rise with him to newness of life. This is more than symbol, this is a spiritual event that takes place by faith, through the power of Jesus.

1 Peter 3:21
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Rom 6:4
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. "

I don’t think this is some kind of “Catholic” thing. I learned it in a protestant seminary!
Not true. In I Peter 3:21, what baptism is this verse referring to? It is not water baptism, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. It is the baptism of The Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ”-that is a faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

God Bless,
Robert
 
Not true. In I Peter 3:21, what baptism is this verse referring to? It is not water baptism, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. It is the baptism of The Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ”-that is a faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

God Bless,
Robert
Robert, in the Greek, the word for Baptism means “covered in water.” How does one become covered in water, without any water? 🤷
 
:getholy: We are saved “only” by the grace of God. If Jesus hadn’t died on the cross none of us would be saved. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life, whoever believes in me will never die, but have eternal life.” So the belief has to be there and what we do with that belief will be God’s to judge. Jesus says there will be separation of the sheep and the goats, and that not everyone who has claimed to know Him is really known by Him. That would tell me that if someone knows what God requires of him, her, and willfully disobeys we are risking our eternity with God. So belief/faith has to be an active faith.

So none of us really should be presuming on someone’s salvation, or that someone is not saved.

Also St. Paul admonishes us to not lose our faith nor tire of running the race. It shows that our salvation is a work in process.

But thanks be to God, we all will have the opportunity to be with Him forever. We can rejoice in that!

Terri
 
Not because you can be saved without baptism (ordinarily) but because those who are baptized can later lose their faith. If someone gets baptized, but later loses his faith, he, too, will go to Hell. We not only have to get baptized, we also have to persevere in our faith.

Also nothing about it being optional. We find “Baptism now saves you” in I Peter 3:21. 😉
This verse (1 Peter 3:21) is talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. If this water baptism is required for our salvation, why didn’t Jesus tell Nicodemus that you must be born again, and baptized?

God Bless,
Robert
 
Robert, in the Greek, the word for Baptism means “covered in water.” How does one become covered in water, without any water? 🤷
Not true. Christ “baptized with the Holy Spirit” in the primary sense of providing “so great a salvation” (Heb. 2:3). After His ascension the Holy Spirit came and “baptized” believers into union with the glorified Christ (1 Cor. 12:12,13; Romans 6:3,4; Gal. 3:27).

God Bless,
Robert
 
Why doesn’t it say; ---------?
Do you realize how many more things you could add in addition the two items you gave?
We are talking about baptism here, not a list of unrelated things.

God Bless,
Robert
 
I realize that this is only the beginning of my new life as a Christian, but I would like to know what other Christians feel is necessary for them to be saved. I’m not really interested in opinions, but would prefer Biblical backing substantianting your responses.
Would like to point out a little bit of irony here. You would like to know what other Christians feel is necessary for them to be saved, which is fair enough, I guess many people would be curious about that. In other words, you are asking “what is your opinion on what you need to be saved?” But then in the next sentence you say that you aren’t interested in opinions.

Well, if you are only interested in facts rather than opinions, there can only be 1 possible answer (which would be the true answer), which is hardly something that would feed your curiosity. And it would be much better asked “what is needed to be saved” rather than “what do you feel is needed to be saved” because what I think or feel could be different to the next person along, but the fact/truth doesn’t vary from person to person.

You ask for biblical backing, which rules out anyone whose opinions on salvation aren’t bibilically based, which again makes me wonder, do you want to know what we think/feel or not? Even if you ask for biblical backing, it’s still silly to say that you don’t want opinions, because each person’s interpretation of the bible is their opinion of what they think the passage says. (Unless for some reason they had the authority to make infallible interpretations of the bible).

Another bit of irony - you say you are a new Christian and you make it sound like you are interested in learning, yet despite this admission, from the very first post you are trying to teach and challenge us. Kind of an odd approach.

Okay, I’m going to be a bit of a troll now (sorry. I’ve been on these forums for a long time, around a year ago I used to come on frequently and saw way too many threads like this for my liking. This has nothing to do with the OP in particular, but NCC’s in general).

Why does every non-Catholic Christian who comes on these forums to talk to us about salvation, feel like they have to pretty up their wording, beat around the bush, make it sound like a discussion, an exercise in learning or whatever?
Why can’t they be straight with us and say - “I am here to try and convert you Catholics to believe in sola fide. Please post defences of your view on salvation so that I can tear them down so that you will believe what I teach you.”

In fact, why do such NCC’s even post threads like this here in the first place? Do they think Catholics come here because they want to get converted? Do they think they’re going to teach us something new when our Church has already spent 500 years telling them they’re the ones who are wrong?

Past experience on CAF shows that Protestant after Protestant hits nothing but dead ends when starting these threads, then leaves. But at least the Protestants only have to have these crazy biblical discussions here once - while the Catholics who’ve been on CAF for years, have to refute it every single time - have any of you Catholic apologists been keeping count? Way too many times.

If you wanna learn about Catholicism, join CAF and post. If you just want to convert Catholics, then 1) Don’t. and 2) Don’t do it here.
 
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the son, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” John 5:24.
“Most assuredly I say to you he who believes in Me has eternal life.” John 6:47
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23.

We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works, lest any man boast. I feel confident that these scriptures are true, and I am saved by believing in Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross. It is a gift from God. I am a sinner and I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour.

I realize that this is only the beginning of my new life as a Christian, but I would like to know what other Christians feel is necessary for them to be saved. I’m not really interested in opinions, but would prefer Biblical backing substantianting your responses. Please try and stay on track, and tell us what is necessary for salvation [alone].

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph. 5:20-21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There have been many on this forum who say there are no requirements for salvation. They claim that since salvation is gift so how can anything be required?
Well, isn’t there a requirement of faith?
Heb 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”
So there are some requirements to please God and if we don’t please God then we don’t receive salvation and one requirement is faith, for it IS required to obtain salvation.

Also, baptism. Peter says in Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.”

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

And endurance…Mt 10:22 “He who endures to the end will be saved.”
 
Not true. In I Peter 3:21, what baptism is this verse referring to? It is not water baptism, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. It is the baptism of The Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ”-that is a faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

God Bless,
Robert
Robert, the baptism of Jesus is both of water, and the Spirit. This is the way He taught, and this is what He commanded. It is inappropriate to attempt to separate them from one another. One must be born of water, and spirit. The baptism that Peter speaks of that saves is real Holy Spirit Baptism with water, that is not for washing of a dirty body, but to clean the conscience before God. Yes, baptism is a joining with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. In this way, we are regenerated. This is the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
 
This verse (1 Peter 3:21) is talking about baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. If this water baptism is required for our salvation, why didn’t Jesus tell Nicodemus that you must be born again, and baptized?

God Bless,
Robert
He did Robert! What else do you think He meant when He said you must be born of water, and spirit !!!

Why do you think Jesus commanded baptism?

Why do you think He had his Apostles baptize?
 
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the son, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” John 5:24.
“Most assuredly I say to you he who believes in Me has eternal life.” John 6:47
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23.

We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works, lest any man boast. I feel confident that these scriptures are true, and I am saved by believing in Jesus Christ, and His work on the cross. It is a gift from God. I am a sinner and I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour.
Of course you are right, that we are saved by faith. But Jesus made it clear that a saving faith is an obedient faith. He spent all the years of His ministry teaching about how to obey God’s commandments.
I realize that this is only the beginning of my new life as a Christian, but I would like to know what other Christians feel is necessary for them to be saved. I’m not really interested in opinions, but would prefer Biblical backing substantianting your responses. Please try and stay on track, and tell us what is necessary for salvation [alone].

God Bless,
Robert
You are on track at least with this point, that “getting saved” (initial justification) is only the beginning of new life as a Christian. The process of sanctification (becoming holy) that culminates in ultimate salvation is very long, complex, and can only be based upon salvation by grace through faith.
 
Would like to point out a little bit of irony here. You would like to know what other Christians feel is necessary for them to be saved, which is fair enough, I guess many people would be curious about that. In other words, you are asking “what is your opinion on what you need to be saved?” But then in the next sentence you say that you aren’t interested in opinions.

Well, if you are only interested in facts rather than opinions, there can only be 1 possible answer (which would be the true answer), which is hardly something that would feed your curiosity. And it would be much better asked “what is needed to be saved” rather than “what do you feel is needed to be saved” because what I think or feel could be different to the next person along, but the fact/truth doesn’t vary from person to person.

You ask for biblical backing, which rules out anyone whose opinions on salvation aren’t bibilically based, which again makes me wonder, do you want to know what we think/feel or not? Even if you ask for biblical backing, it’s still silly to say that you don’t want opinions, because each person’s interpretation of the bible is their opinion of what they think the passage says. (Unless for some reason they had the authority to make infallible interpretations of the bible).

Another bit of irony - you say you are a new Christian and you make it sound like you are interested in learning, yet despite this admission, from the very first post you are trying to teach and challenge us. Kind of an odd approach.

Okay, I’m going to be a bit of a troll now (sorry. I’ve been on these forums for a long time, around a year ago I used to come on frequently and saw way too many threads like this for my liking. This has nothing to do with the OP in particular, but NCC’s in general).

Why does every non-Catholic Christian who comes on these forums to talk to us about salvation, feel like they have to pretty up their wording, beat around the bush, make it sound like a discussion, an exercise in learning or whatever?
Why can’t they be straight with us and say - “I am here to try and convert you Catholics to believe in sola fide. Please post defences of your view on salvation so that I can tear them down so that you will believe what I teach you.”

In fact, why do such NCC’s even post threads like this here in the first place? Do they think Catholics come here because they want to get converted? Do they think they’re going to teach us something new when our Church has already spent 500 years telling them they’re the ones who are wrong?

Past experience on CAF shows that Protestant after Protestant hits nothing but dead ends when starting these threads, then leaves. But at least the Protestants only have to have these crazy biblical discussions here once - while the Catholics who’ve been on CAF for years, have to refute it every single time - have any of you Catholic apologists been keeping count? Way too many times.

If you wanna learn about Catholicism, join CAF and post. If you just want to convert Catholics, then 1) Don’t. and 2) Don’t do it here.
Eph. 5:21-22 “test all things, hold fast what is good”.

2 Tim 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”.

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

I don’t want to convert anyone, and I can’t convert anyone. You should know that. These threads are used for the purpose of what 2 Tim 3:16-17 talks about; reproof, correction, profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness.
I did start this thread, so does that mean that I shouldn’t be able to ask questions or rebut with scripture? Is freedom of speech limited to pro-Catholic dogma?
I’m here to learn, and have learned many valuable spiritual things here from those who have been kind enough to share them with me. But if what they say doesn’t line up with scripture, I feel obligated to point that out to them.
If my comments and Bible verses irritate you, please don’t feel obligated to read them

God Bless,
Robert.
 
He did Robert! What else do you think He meant when He said you must be born of water, and spirit !!!

Why do you think Jesus commanded baptism?

Why do you think He had his Apostles baptize?
Not true. The first birth from the womb is the “born of water” that Jesus was referring to. That’s why Nicodemus was so confused, and asked Jesus how can a man be born from his mother again? We actually have two birth’s. The first is born of water, and the second is a spiritual birth.

God Bless,
Robert
 
Not true. The first birth from the womb is the “born of water” that Jesus was referring to. That’s why Nicodemus was so confused, and asked Jesus how can a man be born from his mother again? We actually have two birth’s. The first is born of water, and the second is a spiritual birth.

God Bless,
Robert
John 3

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It appears you are incorrect.

A man must be born again - subsequent to his natural birth.
And this second ‘birth’ must be of water **and **the Holy Ghost.
 
Not true. The first birth from the womb is the “born of water” that Jesus was referring to. That’s why Nicodemus was so confused, and asked Jesus how can a man be born from his mother again? We actually have two birth’s. The first is born of water, and the second is a spiritual birth.

God Bless,
Robert
Actually, you can’t find the early Church fathers they are the disciples of the Apostles, so they would have been taught what the Apostles meant by “water and Spirit” and they always wrote that John 3:5 was a unitive act of water and the Spirit, meaning we receive the Holy Spirit when one is baptized by proper form and matter.
That’s why Peter says in Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. "

Also, in Titus 3:5 "not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,"

That there is a unitive act of baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit has been the constant teaching of salvific Christian history since the begining.
 
John 3

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Born again of water? Where did you find that? That’s not what John 3:5 says! It says; “Except a man be born of water”…

It appears you are incorrect.
Only if you try and add to God’s word, which you attempted to do here.

A man must be born again - subsequent to his natural birth.
And this second ‘birth’ must be of water **and **the Holy Ghost.
If Jesus was talking about baptism, why would He use such a strange expression as “born of water”?

God Bless,
Robert
 
Actually, you can’t find the early Church fathers they are the disciples of the Apostles, so they would have been taught what the Apostles meant by “water and Spirit” and they always wrote that John 3:5 was a unitive act of water and the Spirit, meaning we receive the Holy Spirit when one is baptized by proper form and matter.
That’s why Peter says in Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. "

Also, in Titus 3:5 "not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,"

That there is a unitive act of baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit has been the constant teaching of salvific Christian history since the begining.
1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross should be made of no effect.”
If baptism was a requirement for salvation, why would Paul have made this statement? It just doesn’t make any sense.

God Bless,
Robert
 
1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross should be made of no effect.”
If baptism was a requirement for salvation, why would Paul have made this statement? It just doesn’t make any sense.

God Bless,
Robert
Confusion indeed. They were dividing the Body of Christ with their personal preferences.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give God thanks, that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Caius; 15 Lest any should say that you were baptized in my name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanus; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
 
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