Salvation requirements

[I_Leatherman]

Born again of water? Where did you find that? That’s not what John 3:5 says! It says; “Except a man be born of water”…

God Bless,
Robert

It appears you are incorrect, again.
A man must be born again - subsequent to his natural birth.
And this second ‘birth’ must be of water **and **the Holy Ghost.

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.

If Jesus was talking about baptism, why would He use such a strange expression as “born of water”?

Its not strange. He said unless a man be [baptised] born again of water AND the Holy Ghost.

because…

9 Nicodemus answered, and said to him: How can these things be done? 10 Jesus answered, and said to him: Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things?

22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

 

[Bishopite]

1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross should be made of no effect.”
If baptism was a requirement for salvation, why would Paul have made this statement? It just doesn’t make any sense.

God Bless,
Robert

If you take the false premise that baptism isn’t required for salvation and that it isn’t anything other than a symbol or ordinance, then scripture as a whole won’t make sense, since in many places it says baptism “saves you.” Paul clearly baptized in 1 Cor 1:16 a verse just prior to 17.
In 1 Cor Paul is taking up an issue where some were giving special attention to those person who initiated them into the body of Christ by baptism that’s why Paul says that he didn’t baptize as much as preach the gospel, for many because he is trying to keep the wayward Corinthians from taking on false divisions as he goes on in chapter 5 to speak about divisions among them and how that is wrong.
We know that baptism brings us into the body of Christ from Pauls writings just as circumcision brought those into the Old covenant.
Paul writes of the parallels in Col 2:11-13 “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;”

Baptism according to Paul brings us into the new covenant or the new Church Christ established. We Catholics aren’t the only ones who teach this, the Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopalians and the Reformed Christians teach that baptism brings us into the body of Christ just as did circumcision. They all recognize what the early Christians knew from the Apostles, that baptism was included as a necessity for salvation as Jesus points out in His great commission; go preach the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Robert902]

It appears you are incorrect, again.

You keep saying this, when it’s you who are incorrect. You change the words, and don’t give complete chapter and verse numbers!

A man must be born again - subsequent to his natural birth.
And this second ‘birth’ must be of water **and **the Holy Ghost.

That’s not what being born again means. It doesn’t mean water baptism! Where do you come up with this stuff? Being born again, refers to a spiritual birth, and has nothing to do with water.

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5? Born again of water? Please tell me the chapter and verse where I can find this in my Bible?

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.

Matt. 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” What does this have to do with being born again?

Its not strange. He said unless a man be [baptised] born again of water AND the Holy Ghost.

There it is again, born again of water. All you give for a reference is the number 5. What does the number 5 mean?

because…

9 Nicodemus answered, and said to him: How can these things be done? 10 Jesus answered, and said to him: Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things?

22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

What does this prove about baptism being necessary for salvation? Jesus did a lot of things, that doesn’t mean that they are all necessary for salvation.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

If you take the false premise that baptism isn’t required for salvation and that it isn’t anything other than a symbol or ordinance, then scripture as a whole won’t make sense, since in many places it says baptism “saves you.” Paul clearly baptized in 1 Cor 1:16 a verse just prior to 17.
In 1 Cor Paul is taking up an issue where some were giving special attention to those person who initiated them into the body of Christ by baptism that’s why Paul says that he didn’t baptize as much as preach the gospel, for many because he is trying to keep the wayward Corinthians from taking on false divisions as he goes on in chapter 5 to speak about divisions among them and how that is wrong.
We know that baptism brings us into the body of Christ from Pauls writings just as circumcision brought those into the Old covenant.
Paul writes of the parallels in Col 2:11-13 “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;”

Baptism according to Paul brings us into the new covenant or the new Church Christ established. We Catholics aren’t the only ones who teach this, the Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopalians and the Reformed Christians teach that baptism brings us into the body of Christ just as did circumcision. They all recognize what the early Christians knew from the Apostles, that baptism was included as a necessity for salvation as Jesus points out in His great commission; go preach the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Justification is necessary for salvation. And what you are saying is that until one is baptized, he isn’t justified in God’s eyes?

God Bless,
Robert

 

[CSJ]

Read James Chapter 2.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

---

A particular subject that is addressed within a verse may not define it comprehensively so it is important to look at other similar scriptures on the subject to gain a fuller understanding. James expands the definition of faith showing that a faith without works is dead. This is why Luther called James “the epistle of straw” and he wanted to omit it from the Protestant canon. It basically debunked his belief in “faith alone”.

I have asked some Protestant teachers to define this for me and none have yet been able to adequately “explain it away.”

 

[cor]

Robert, water in the Gospels and elsewhere in the scriptures is a symbol of God or God’s Spirit or the Holy Spirit. For example, one of the Gospels speaks of “living water” (remember the woman at the well) – this is referring to the life-giving “water”, metaphorically speaking of God or the holy Spirit.

In the original language, the word that is translated as “spirit” can be translated as “wind”, as you may know. So Jesus speaks there, literally of being born of “water and wind” – this makes the two things sound like one and the same thing or at least complementary or forming a unity. It is clearly IMO speaking of being spiritually born “from above” (the words can be translated “from above” as opposed to “again”) – but in the sacrament of baptism, the water symbolizes the spiritual life given to us by God, by the Holy Spirit; baptism is the sacrament of spiritual rebirth of spirtually being born “from above” – so Jesus’ words could indeed have been referring to the sacrament of baptism, perhaps as a secondary meaning, since the nature and effect of the sacrament centers around being born spiritually “from above.”

 

[I_Leatherman]

You keep saying this, …

John 3 : 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.

1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus…This man came to Jesus by night…and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God;… Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old?..Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus answered, and said to him: How can these things be done? …10 Jesus answered, and said to him: Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things?
22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized…John 4:1 1 When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judea, and went again into Galilee. 4 And he was of necessity to pass through Samaria.

Here it is in my view:
Jesus was going to go to to Judea to baptise people there. John was also baptising there. Many people went to John to be baptised but many more would follow Jesus to be baptised. The Pharasees were aware of all this.

So…to shorten it…

Jesus was going to Judea to baptise.
The night before He left a Pharasee came to see Him.
The Pharasee said, we know you are from God.
Jesus replied in an odd sort of disconcerting way: **Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.**Nicodemus saith to him: How?
Jesus said: **Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **Nicodemus answered, and said to him: How can these things be done?
10 Jesus answered, and said to him: Art thou a master in Israel, and knowest not these things?
22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized.
When Jesus [in Judea] therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John…

The whole Chapter, and tailing off into the next, is set up against the backround of Baptism.
Our Lord was on His way to Judea to baptise.
There is a sudden unexpected night visit by a Pharasee, just before He left.
That interview began with a gereral statement by Nicodemus.
The reply was unusually pointed, about the necessity of being born of water and the Holy Ghost.
And then a question to Nicodemus as to how a Pharasee, a leader in the land, would not know what was happening.
After the interview with Nicodemus Our Lord left to baptise people in Judea, along with John the Baptist who was already there.

 

[guanophore]

Eph. 5:21-22 “test all things, hold fast what is good”.

2 Tim 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”.

These threads are used for the purpose of what 2 Tim 3:16-17 talks about; reproof, correction, profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the threads, Robert. Catholics are not Sola Scriptura, and we consider that the Teaching of Jesus resides in His church, both in the scriptures produced by that church, and in the apostolic succession. Since you reject this truth, you can’t help misusing the threads.

I did start this thread, so does that mean that I shouldn’t be able to ask questions or rebut with scripture? Is freedom of speech limited to pro-Catholic dogma?

Clearly not, or there would not be so many people here trying to convert Catholics!

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

this is the point the poster was trying to make to you Robert. You are here defending what you already believe, and to promote your anti-catholic position. this does not present yourself in the light of a learner.

I don’t want to convert anyone, and I can’t convert anyone. You should know that. I’m here to learn, and have learned many valuable spiritual things here from those who have been kind enough to share them with me. But if what they say doesn’t line up with scripture, I feel obligated to point that out to them.
If my comments and Bible verses irritate you, please don’t feel obligated to read them

God Bless,
Robert.

It is not the scripture that doesn’t line up, Robert, but your understanding of it. Since you have rejected the Teacher, you will be limited in how well you can understand what is written.

I think you are being disingenuous here. If you believe that Catholics do not follow scripture, and you do not think a person can be saved without following scripture, why would you not want to convert us?

Not true. The first birth from the womb is the “born of water” that Jesus was referring to. That’s why Nicodemus was so confused, and asked Jesus how can a man be born from his mother again? We actually have two birth’s. The first is born of water, and the second is a spiritual birth.

You did not answer my question, Robert. Now you have added another error into the discussion. On what basis do you determine that Jesus was talking about natural physical birth when he spoke to Nicodemus? I assert that this is another misunderstanding of scriputures. Otherwise, why would Nicodemus ask how he could return to the womb? He knew he had already been born naturally, so why would he ask that?

My other questions are:

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

 

[Pug]

The Douay Rheims and the KJV read differently:

KJV John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

DRA John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born **again **of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

See the “again”? I’m concerned that version confusion is complicating the issue here.

 

[mikeledes]

Robert, do you believe justifcation is the forgiveness of sins? If you do, then read:

Acts 2:

**38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. **

Peter tells his audience to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. For what? For the forgiveness of their sins. God freely chose to confer the gift of justification through baptism.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

Justification is necessary for salvation. And what you are saying is that until one is baptized, he isn’t justified in God’s eyes?

How can he be, since it is in Baptism that God washes away our sins? (I Peter 3:21)

If a person has not been baptized, then his sins have not been washed away, and he has not been justified.

 

[CatholismRox]

Sanctifying grace is the requiremenet

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Baptism saves. Peter says that in the Inerrant word of God. The Holy Spirit didn’t lie when it inspired Peter to write those words!

 

[Robert902]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the threads, Robert. Catholics are not Sola Scriptura, and we consider that the Teaching of Jesus resides in His church, both in the scriptures produced by that church, and in the apostolic succession. Since you reject this truth, you can’t help misusing the threads.

Then where do I use the command in 1 Thess. 5:20-21?

Clearly not, or there would not be so many people here trying to convert Catholics! [/Qoute]

You use the word convert. I am here to discuss, not convert.

this is the point the poster was trying to make to you Robert. You are here defending what you already believe, and to promote your anti-catholic position. this does not present yourself in the light of a learner.

I am defending the Word of God. It seems as though you are telling me that these threads are here only for Catholics, and their non-confrontational discussion of Catholicism. And disregard the Bible, If it doesn’t agree with what the Catholic church teaches.

It is not the scripture that doesn’t line up, Robert, but your understanding of it. Since you have rejected the Teacher, you will be limited in how well you can understand what is written.

Which teacher have I rejected?

I think you are being disingenuous here. If you believe that Catholics do not follow scripture, and you do not think a person can be saved without following scripture, why would you not want to convert us?

Possibly because I question some of the posts here, you assume that I am trying to convert. I guess I could accuse you of the same thing.

You did not answer my question, Robert. Now you have added another error into the discussion. On what basis do you determine that Jesus was talking about natural physical birth when he spoke to Nicodemus? I assert that this is another misunderstanding of scriputures. Otherwise, why would Nicodemus ask how he could return to the womb? He knew he had already been born naturally, so why would he ask that?

You misunderstand. I don’t think that Jesus was talking about a physical birth, but Nicodemus did. Sure he knew that he had been born of his mother, but thought Jesus was saying that he was going to have to do it again.

My other questions are:

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

Jesus commanded a lot of things, does that mean that they are all necessary for salvation? How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation?
The Apostles baptized for the same reason that we baptize today. Water baptism is symbolic of death. Death of our old nature. It is only symbolic.

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” If the second part of that verse said “but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned”, then I would have to agree with you. But it doesn’t say that. The only sin that sends us to hell is the “believeth not.”

If anyone finds my post disturbing, please don’t feel obligated to read them. And I certainly don’t think that it’s unreasonable to expect people to give a rational explanation for their posts. Blind faith is encouraged nowhere in Scripture.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[I_Leatherman]

Robert902:

Blind faith is encouraged nowhere in Scripture.

[SIGN]…blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.[/SIGN]

oops, is that a poor interpretation…

 

[guanophore]

You use the word convert. I am here to discuss, not convert.

I think not, Robert. I think you have already made up your mind.

I am defending the Word of God. It seems as though you are telling me that these threads are here only for Catholics, and their non-confrontational discussion of Catholicism. And disregard the Bible, If it doesn’t agree with what the Catholic church teaches.

Well, which is it? Are you here to discuss, or to defend your private interpretation of scripture? Why is it that you think the scriptures need to be defended? Since the Catholic Church wrote them the Catholic Church can clearly pronounce that there are no Catholic teachings or practices that contradict them.

It is not the scripture that doesn’t line up, Robert, but your understanding of it. Since you have rejected the Teacher, you will be limited in how well you can understand what is written.

Which teacher have I rejected?

You have rejected the apostolic succession, into whose hands Jesus committed the message of the gospel of truth.

Luke 10:16

16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I think you are being disingenuous here. If you believe that Catholics do not follow scripture, and you do not think a person can be saved without following scripture, why would you not want to convert us?

Possibly because I question some of the posts here, you assume that I am trying to convert. I guess I could accuse you of the same thing.

I can wholeheartedly accept the responsibilty for that. With my whole heart I pray that my separated brethren will submit to the Bishop of Rome. You are not just "questioning’. You have already made up your mind, as you stated above, that

(Catholics) disregard the Bible, If it doesn’t agree with what the Catholic church teaches.

This is an erroneous assumption, and if you really wanted to learn what the Catholic church believes, and teaches, you would set it aside so that you could find out.

(continued)

 

[guanophore]

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

Jesus commanded a lot of things, does that mean that they are all necessary for salvation?

Yes.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation?

Yes.
Matt 5:17-18

17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.”

Luke 16:17
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void."

1 Cor 7:19
19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God."

The Apostles baptized for the same reason that we baptize today. Water baptism is symbolic of death. Death of our old nature. It is only symbolic.

What would be the point of “symbolically” dying to our old nature? If that were true, then we would only “symbolically” rise with Him, and we would not, in actuality, be born into newness of life, or be partakers of His resurrection. If this is not a true spiritual change, then it is only words, and hence, worthless.

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” If the second part of that verse said “but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned”, then I would have to agree with you. But it doesn’t say that. The only sin that sends us to hell is the “believeth not.”

Yet, if we truly believe in Him, we will obey His commandments, one of which is to be baptized. Through baptism we are changed, and we “put on Christ” :

Gal 3:26-28
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

What good would it do “act it out” symbolically?

If baptism does not really wash away sins, then we are still dead in our sins!

Acts 22:16
Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

If anyone finds my post disturbing, please don’t feel obligated to read them. And I certainly don’t think that it’s unreasonable to expect people to give a rational explanation for their posts. Blind faith is encouraged nowhere in Scripture.

It is your attitude, erroneous assumptions, and disingenuiness that I find disturbing. You say you are here to learn, but your behavior indicates you are here to “refute” and your words say you are defending your private interpretation of the scriptures. What you HAVE is a faith that is shortsighted, and abbreviated because you have been cut off from the apostolic teaching appointed by Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus commanded a lot of things, does that mean that they are all necessary for salvation?

YES. Do you think you can be saved without being obedient to Christ?

How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation?

In that to disobey them is mortal sin, again, yes, they are necessary - not to gain salvation, but in order not to lose it, since although we cannot work our way into Heaven, we can certainly work our way into Hell, and how we work our way into Hell is to disobey Christ’s commandments along with the 10 Commandments.

 

[mikeledes]

How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation?

I respond to this with the following verse:

Matthew 19:16-19

**16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’" **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

Justification is necessary for salvation. And what you are saying is that until one is baptized, he isn’t justified in God’s eyes?

God Bless,
Robert

Faith and baptism are the ordinary means by which one is saved. There are extraordinary means i.e., baptism of desire with faith where one isn’t actually baptized but wishes to obey God in whatever He wills for them.

We are justified by our baptism where God regenerates us.

Titus 3:5-7 “not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

We receive sanctifying grace in our baptism which justifies us and regerates us.

John 3:5 Jesus said to be “born of water and the Spirit.”
1 Peter 3:21 Peter says “baptism now saves you.”
Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned”

All straight forward verses about the necessity of faith and baptism.