Salvation requirements

[Robert902]

[SIGN]…blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.[/SIGN]

oops, is that a poor interpretation…

Faith in it’s simplest concept is personal confidence in God. There is a connection between faith and reason. There is a broad measure of agreement within the Christian Church that faith is compatible with reason; indeed it requires reason in order to understand what is believed.
Jehova Witnesses are guilty of blind faith. They believe whatever The Watchtower and Tract Society tells them to believe. They ignore God’s command in 1 Thess. 5:20-21 to “test all things.”

In John 20:25-28 Jesus wasn’t hard on Thomas for his doubts. Despite his scepticism, Thomas was still loyal to the believers and to Jesus Himself. Some people need to doubt before they believe. If doubt leads to questions, questions lead to answers, and the answers are accepted, then doubt has done good work. It is when doubt becomes stubborness and stubborness becomes a life-style that doubt harms faith. When you doubt, don’t stop there. Let your doubt deepen your faith as you continue to search for the answer.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

YES. Do you think you can be saved without being obedient to Christ?

In that to disobey them is mortal sin, again, yes, they are necessary - not to gain salvation, but in order not to lose it, since although we cannot work our way into Heaven, we can certainly work our way into Hell, and how we work our way into Hell is to disobey Christ’s commandments along with the 10 Commandments.

Lose salvation? Work our way into hell?

John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.”

 

[Robert902]

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

Yes.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

Yes.
Matt 5:17-18

17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.”

Luke 16:17
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void."

1 Cor 7:19
19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God."

What would be the point of “symbolically” dying to our old nature? If that were true, then we would only “symbolically” rise with Him, and we would not, in actuality, be born into newness of life, or be partakers of His resurrection. If this is not a true spiritual change, then it is only words, and hence, worthless.

Yet, if we truly believe in Him, we will obey His commandments, one of which is to be baptized. Through baptism we are changed, and we “put on Christ” :

Gal 3:26-28
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

What good would it do “act it out” symbolically?

If baptism does not really wash away sins, then we are still dead in our sins!

Acts 22:16
Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

It is your attitude, erroneous assumptions, and disingenuiness that I find disturbing. You say you are here to learn, but your behavior indicates you are here to “refute” and your words say you are defending your private interpretation of the scriptures. What you HAVE is a faith that is shortsighted, and abbreviated because you have been cut off from the apostolic teaching appointed by Christ.

John 15:1-"5

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

Our Lord used a marvelous figure of speech, and He made it very clear that it is not our identification with a religion or a ceremony or an organization that is essential. We are to be identified with Christ! We are in Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment we trust Christ as our savior and are born again as a child of God.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

I respond to this with the following verse:

Matthew 19:16-19

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"

God Bless,
Michael

What does enter life mean? It has nothing to do with salvation. What Jesus was telling this young man was that if he wanted to experience life the way Jesus wanted him to, he needed to obey the commandments. The young man had obeyed the law, but something was missing. Jesus knew this. What was missing was his relationship with God, thus he violated the first and greatest commandment (exodus 20:3; Matthew 22:36-40).

God Bless,
Robert

 

[I_Leatherman]

Lose salvation? Work our way into hell?

John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.”

24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

He is talking to a group of Jews who do not believe that He is the Christ, and they demand an answer. He said no man could take away His sheep out of His hands. Presumably His sheep wanted to stay in His hands, and He as the good shepherd, would protect them to the point of laying down His life to save them; something a mere hireling would not do. But elsewhere, He also told the Jews that His mission was to them, Matthew 23
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?
This means the Jews He was talking to could be His sheep if they willed it, but they chose not to be, as the sheep in His hands did choose to be sheep in His hands and now enjoy His protection - its not as if He holds His sheep against their will. But rather, they are free to stay His sheep and be protected by the Good Shepherd, they are also free to leave His hands - and are free to remain in His hands, and are free like the Jews were, to become His sheep.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Faith in it’s simplest concept …

This is in response to this thing that you said:

"Jesus commanded a lot of things, does that mean that they are all necessary for salvation? How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation? "

My answer would be to say that to deny anything you know Christ taught is nothing less than calling Him a liar and telling Him that no, no, you do not believe Him.
Which does not sit well with an argument that demands belief in Christ as necessary for salvation.
So, yes - every thing Christ taught is necessary for salvation, I can’t imagine that God, when He speaks, ever says anything unnecessary, silly, or a waste of breath or a waste of time.

 

[mikeledes]

What does enter life mean? It has nothing to do with salvation. What Jesus was telling this young man was that if he wanted to experience life the way Jesus wanted him to, he needed to obey the commandments. The young man had obeyed the law, but something was missing. Jesus knew this. What was missing was his relationship with God, thus he violated the first and greatest commandment (exodus 20:3; Matthew 22:36-40).

God Bless,
Robert

The question was on eternal life, not on Christian living.

Matthew 19:16

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Entering “life”, Robert, is another way of saying inheriting eternal life or the kingdom of God:

Matthew 25:46

**46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." **

God Bless,
Michael

.

 

[jmcrae]

What does enter life mean? It has nothing to do with salvation.

If eternal life has nothing to do with salvation, then what is salvation?

I always thought that “salvation” was to be allowed to go to Heaven (that is, to enter into eternal life).

 

[jmcrae]

Lose salvation? Work our way into hell?

John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.”

Jesus gives us eternal life (or not) at the moment of our death, when He passes judgement on our lives. Did we believe in Him and do our best to follow His way? This is what we will be judged on.

No alive person has eternal life yet. We are moving either towards it or away from it in this life. We don’t receive it until we are judged, and we are not judged until the moment of death.

 

[guanophore]

Lose salvation? Work our way into hell?

John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.”

Yes, Robert. It is possible to throw away the gift of salvation, and it is possible to JUMP out of His hand, and RUN from Him!

Our Lord used a marvelous figure of speech, and He made it very clear that it is not our identification with a religion or a ceremony or an organization that is essential. We are to be identified with Christ! We are in Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment we trust Christ as our savior and are born again as a child of God.

God Bless,
Robert

Yes, and He also made it clear that we are to be baptized with water, according to the “ritual” if you wish to call it that He gave (in the name of the father, son, and HS). You did not answer my questions.

Why did Jesus get baptized?

Why did He command his disciples to baptize?

Why does the Apostle teach that baptism washes away sins?

What does enter life mean? It has nothing to do with salvation. What Jesus was telling this young man was that if he wanted to experience life the way Jesus wanted him to, he needed to obey the commandments. The young man had obeyed the law, but something was missing. Jesus knew this. What was missing was his relationship with God, thus he violated the first and greatest commandment (exodus 20:3; Matthew 22:36-40).

God Bless,
Robert

I find myself appalled that you can say that entering life has nothing to do with salvation!

If we are dead in our sins without Christ, and salvation is to become alive in HIm , what else could that possibly mean? If salvation can be found by following the commandments, then why did Jesus have to die?

 

[Robert902]

24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

He is talking to a group of Jews who do not believe that He is the Christ, and they demand an answer. He said no man could take away His sheep out of His hands. Presumably His sheep wanted to stay in His hands, and He as the good shepherd, would protect them to the point of laying down His life to save them; something a mere hireling would not do. But elsewhere, He also told the Jews that His mission was to them, Matthew 23
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?
This means the Jews He was talking to could be His sheep if they willed it, but they chose not to be, as the sheep in His hands did choose to be sheep in His hands and now enjoy His protection - its not as if He holds His sheep against their will. But rather, they are free to stay His sheep and be protected by the Good Shepherd, they are also free to leave His hands - and are free to remain in His hands, and are free like the Jews were, to become His sheep.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

According to these scriptures, it’s not our decision, but God’s decision whom He saves. And it’s apparent that this was all determined before the foundation of time. So there is no way that you can lose your salvation. Why this bothers so many people I can’t understand.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

The question was on eternal life, not on Christian living.

Matthew 19:16

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Entering “life”, Robert, is another way of saying inheriting eternal life or the kingdom of God:

Matthew 25:46

46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

God Bless,
Michael

.

Entering and eternal are very different. And for you to say that they mean the same thing is absurd. It say’s “to enter life”, not to inherit eternal life as you have modified it to say. You are adding to God’s word when you take these liberties with the scriptures.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

If eternal life has nothing to do with salvation, then what is salvation?

Jesus was talking about experiencing life as a Christian, and that’s why He used the words “enter life” instead of eternal life. These words enter life and eternal life have very different meanings. If Jesus had meant to say eternal life, why did He say enter life? Enter life is very different from being saved.

God Bless,
Robert

I always thought that “salvation” was to be allowed to go to Heaven (that is, to enter into eternal life).

 

[Robert902]

Jesus gives us eternal life (or not) at the moment of our death, when He passes judgement on our lives. Did we believe in Him and do our best to follow His way? This is what we will be judged on.

No alive person has eternal life yet. We are moving either towards it or away from it in this life. We don’t receive it until we are judged, and we are not judged until the moment of death.

Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined…

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called…

We will be judged by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is vanity to think that there is something you or I can do to add to what Jesus did for us on the cross. “The wages of sin is death”. Our sins and Jesus death.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[Robert902]

Yes, Robert. It is possible to throw away the gift of salvation, and it is possible to JUMP out of His hand, and RUN from Him!

NO no no! John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” What you are saying this says is; and I might raise him up at the last day if he doesn’t run away from me. Jonah tried to run from God, but didn’t get very far.

Yes, and He also made it clear that we are to be baptized with water, according to the “ritual” if you wish to call it that He gave (in the name of the father, son, and HS). You did not answer my questions.

Why did Jesus get baptized?

Why did He command his disciples to baptize?

Why does the Apostle teach that baptism washes away sins?

I did answer your questions. Check my original post please.

I find myself appalled that you can say that entering life has nothing to do with salvation!

Entering life is not the same as eternal life. Entering is not the same as eternal!

If we are dead in our sins without Christ, and salvation is to become alive in HIm , what else could that possibly mean? If salvation can be found by following the commandments, then why did Jesus have to die?

Check the thread…I wasn’t the one who erroneously said that we need to obey the commandments to be saved. I agree with you. Jesus died because of our inability to obey the commandments.

 

[Robert902]

Robert, do you believe justifcation is the forgiveness of sins? If you do, then read:

Justification is a judicual act by which God declares a sinner righteous in His sight on the basis of Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross (Romans 3:25,26; 4:24, 25). Justification originates in the grace of God (Romans 3:24; Tit. 3:4-7). It is received by faith alone, exclusive of works (Romans 4:1-5; Gal. 2:16).

Acts 2:

**38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. **

Peter tells his audience to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. For what? For the forgiveness of their sins. God freely chose to confer the gift of justification through baptism.

God Bless,
Michael

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Christ.”

To what baptism does this refer? It is not water baptism, but baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. The important thing here is that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”–it is not just by water, for that will not put away the filth of the flesh. “But the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”–that is faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

 

[guanophore]

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

According to these scriptures, it’s not our decision, but God’s decision whom He saves. And it’s apparent that this was all determined before the foundation of time. So there is no way that you can lose your salvation. Why this bothers so many people I can’t understand.

God Bless,
Robert

Catholics understand that salvation is up to God, and do not presume upon Him to be saved. However, Catholics also take into account the whole of salvation history, from the revelation of God to Abraham to the teaching of the apostles. In looking at this big picture, we can see that God created man with free will, and therefore, we have choices. It is also clear from the evidence that a person can turn their back on God, or after beginning with Him, fail to persist. This in no way detracts from the sacrifice of Christ, or the power of God to preserve us, but it is consistent with His revelation to us that we have a choice whether we wish to remain with Him or not.

Along those lines, what is the “lampstand” of which is spoken in Revelation?

Rev 2:5
5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."

Entering and eternal are very different. And for you to say that they mean the same thing is absurd. It say’s “to enter life”, not to inherit eternal life as you have modified it to say. You are adding to God’s word when you take these liberties with the scriptures.

God Bless,
Robert

Think of it this way, Robert. Eternal life is like a river, and those that enter it become part of it. One can stand ankle deep, or throw oneself in, but one is still “in”.

Heb 6:9-12

9 Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

This passage teaches us several things. God does not overlook our work and the love that we show. It says that we are to show earnestness to realize salvation “until the end”, and that doing so will allow us to inherit the promises (eternal life being one).

Jesus was talking about experiencing life as a Christian, and that’s why He used the words “enter life” instead of eternal life. These words enter life and eternal life have very different meanings. If Jesus had meant to say eternal life, why did He say enter life? Enter life is very different from being saved.

God Bless,
Robert

I always thought that “salvation” was to be allowed to go to Heaven (that is, to enter into eternal life).

Perhaps your understanding of the word “salvation” is somewhat limited? How is it that the scriptures speak of us as having been saved, being saved, and “will be saved”? Jesus said that He is the Life. When we enter into Him, we enter life. To be with Jesus for all eternity is to have eternal life. How is that different than being “saved”?

 

[jmcrae]

Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined…

He knows who is predestined, but we don’t. Looking back after the fact, we know that Little Therese was predestined, but she didn’t know that, and there is no way that her friends and relatives could have known, while she was still alive. It’s only after she died that we find out that she never committed any sin after baptism, but while she was still alive, there was no way for anyone to know that she would continue and remain without sin for her whole life. She herself acknowledged that she was often tempted.

“The wages of sin is death”.

And sin after baptism merits the same death penalty that sin before baptism merits. We are to walk in the way of the Cross, which means obedience no matter what.

 

[mikeledes]

Entering and eternal are very different. And for you to say that they mean the same thing is absurd. It say’s “to enter life”, not to inherit eternal life as you have modified it to say. You are adding to God’s word when you take these liberties with the scriptures.

God Bless,
Robert

You accuse me of taking liberties with the scripture when the verse I quoted clearly indicates that Jesus is talking about eternal life? The rich young man did not ask him about living a Christian life. He asked him about ETERNAL LIFE. Jesus answered his question on eternal life. When he says “to enter life”, Robert, he is saying to “enter into eternal life.” The context clearly establishes that fact.

Matthew 19:16-17 (KJV)

**16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. **

This is supported by Matthew 7:21

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And:

Galatians 6:7-9

**7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. **

And:

Luke 10:25-28

**25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. **

And:

1 Timothy 6:19-19 (KJV)

18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

And:

Romans 2:6-7 (KJV)

**6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: **

The plain words of the Bible are pretty clear. It’s absurd to say otherwise.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Justification is a judicual act by which God declares a sinner righteous in His sight on the basis of Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross (Romans 3:25,26; 4:24, 25). Justification originates in the grace of God (Romans 3:24; Tit. 3:4-7). It is received by faith alone, exclusive of works (Romans 4:1-5; Gal. 2:16).

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Christ.”

To what baptism does this refer? It is not water baptism, but baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. The important thing here is that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”–it is not just by water, for that will not put away the filth of the flesh. “But the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”–that is faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

I think Peter understood his words better than you or I. Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for what? For the remission of sins. Its interesting how Martin Luther, the man who first came up with the Protestant notion of justification by faith alone, believed in baptismal regeneration.

Here are Lutheran articles on baptismal regeneration:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2610

The Baptism in which the forgiveness is conferred is the one that invloves both water and the Spirit. Secondly, 1 Peter 3:20 would make no sense it he were not referring to the baptism that involves water and spirit:

**20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. **

The water can only symbolize baptism that involves water. Of course, the water itself is not what saves and that is what Peter is trying to clarify. The water is an outward sign of the inward spiritual reality that occurs when a person’s is baptized. The cleansing of the body symbolizes the cleansing of the soul. Both of these cleansings (outward and inward) occur at the same time at baptism.

God bless,
Michael